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Old 19th February 2010, 14:32   #826
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will they reduce the price of the Thar, if its not NEF?
Technically they should Gone are the days when you rebottle old wine in a new bottle and charge customer a premium

Just look at how Ford has buggered up the Endeavour. From the outset the car had a dud of an engine. They then went halfheartedly to offering the public something that was halfway decent and it didn't find much favour. Now they have the right engine but the car is too dated and still will get a lukewarm response. Besides they now have the Fortuner to contend with.

I think all mfg's in India should go to class at MUL. This is one company that doesn't waste time in upgrading its car completely with a new model with new tech and launches it giving a customer a crazy array of cars to choose from at every imaginable price point.

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At the end of the day its a niche seller's market, the Thar.
From the perspective of a offroad enthusiast yes, who still remains starved of a decent new offering. But if they were to position the car to target anything other than the offroad segment the public will be ruthless in evaluating the car and unless a strong VFM case builds for the Thar it will be a non starter

Last edited by DKG : 19th February 2010 at 14:36.
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Old 19th February 2010, 14:58   #827
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I think all mfg's in India should go to class at MUL. This is one company that doesn't waste time in upgrading its car completely with a new model with new tech and launches it giving a customer a crazy array of cars to choose from at every imaginable price point.
I get the message loud and clear BUT just CANT ACCEPT any decent product from MUL stable.

A much better company who gives VFM is HMIL, but lets not get into a debate here.

I too, believed that MUL was a god send in the Fiat, Amby days until HMIL came along and redefined quality standards as well as customer service.

MUL is still beating around with the old 800 unable to get to grips to get it off the market. Their latest offering EECOO or whatever is the super smooth esteem 1.3 doing luggage duty.

Build quality is one thing while market share is another. MUL is ahead in market share but they had a headstart didnt they?
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Old 19th February 2010, 15:30   #828
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MUL is still beating around with the old 800 unable to get to grips to get it off the market
Vikram I see it like this.

For the buyer to whom price is paramount they offer the 800

For the buyer who wants a blend of price and reasonably new tech they have the Alto

For the buyer who wants the latest in tech they have the A Star

Isn't that great choice to the consumer? I first had the 800, then I bought an Alto and next I will get a A Star as the small car in the house.

My reason for referring to Maruti is that its the only company that is able to do volumes at levels that allows it to upgrade its cars. Any other player who cannot do the volumes struggles to remain viable in its product offering by tweaking old tech like M&M. Both Tata and Mahindra are selling to a price. Maruti is the only company that sells to a price with new tech products. Perhaps with the new Vista Tata are getting into the game. And now the Manza. So they seem to be getting the game right. Mahindra too have upgraded reasonably quick to the Mhawk. But they still don't have new tech offerings for the markets they will end up vacating if they discontinue old models like Major etc

Infact I really must complement the Indian government for driving the industry standards up through environmental regulations. If it weren't for their BS 4 standard you'd still have old tech engines in most cars from April. Now its forcing so many to upgrade. Vacating a market is a huge nightmare for a mfg as they end up losing a vital customer base. The only reason Mahindra are using a cast iron block based engine is to keep costs down while meeting the emission standards. If they don't do that they'll end up vacating that segment on account of lack of offering. ie they can't do a Major replacement with MHawk at Rs 5.5 lacs !!

Last edited by DKG : 19th February 2010 at 15:45.
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Old 19th February 2010, 15:38   #829
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I get the message loud and clear BUT just CANT ACCEPT any decent product from MUL stable.
What if Jimny comes here? Say a petrol version under 7lakhs?
For us it will be a SWB, HT, 4X4 with modern comforts.
BUT for other mass market it will just be another SMALL car/SUV priced on the higher side. If launched at that price, we may even see some auto journalist comparing it with Jazz & Fabia, so will MUL really bring it here though it is a decent product?

Its been a month since Thar is launched in Europe, but I could not yet found any Reviews or Test Drive report of that version. Just some launch reports saying it is fun to drive jeep & a cheap alternative for people who cant afford The JEEP Wrangler etc.
What will happen in India, only time will tell. Even if priced in 6-7lakhs approx, will it sell volumes like Major? May be Mahindra will sell it as almighty Jeep in limited numbers like Classic, add to that some customizations...
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Old 19th February 2010, 16:36   #830
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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
What if Jimny comes here? Say a petrol version under 7lakhs?
For us it will be a SWB, HT, 4X4 with modern comforts.
BUT for other mass market it will just be another SMALL car/SUV priced on the higher side. If launched at that price, we may even see some auto journalist comparing it with Jazz & Fabia, so will MUL really bring it here though it is a decent product?

Its been a month since Thar is launched in Europe, but I could not yet found any Reviews or Test Drive report of that version. Just some launch reports saying it is fun to drive jeep & a cheap alternative for people who cant afford The JEEP Wrangler etc.
What will happen in India, only time will tell. Even if priced in 6-7lakhs approx, will it sell volumes like Major? May be Mahindra will sell it as almighty Jeep in limited numbers like Classic, add to that some customizations...
If only M&M would have relaunched the SWB CJ3B instead of the CJ5.
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Old 19th February 2010, 17:02   #831
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I'm sure M&M can produce the SWB given that the Major is still in production, however since the Thar is now being launched it's best we stay focused to make the launch more fruitful by trying to hi-light what it should include and what could be the possible options that can be offered at the dealer and also the other tech specs that would make it a punchful offroader.
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Old 19th February 2010, 17:07   #832
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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
Just some launch reports saying it is fun to drive jeep & a cheap alternative for people who cant afford The JEEP Wrangler etc.
Any links to those? Thanks in advance.
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Old 19th February 2010, 17:47   #833
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Vikram I see it like this.

For the buyer to whom price is paramount they offer the 800

For the buyer who wants a blend of price and reasonably new tech they have the Alto

For the buyer who wants the latest in tech they have the A Star

Isn't that great choice to the consumer?
Deepak, I bow down to you . You are awesome at your job and I'm just a newbie. Thanks!

But for the K series 1.2 engines that MUL offer, the rest are all old wine in better bottles!

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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
What if Jimny comes here? Say a petrol version under 7lakhs?
For us it will be a SWB, HT, 4X4 with modern comforts.
Dream on baby, Dream on..
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Old 19th February 2010, 18:00   #834
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Any links to those? Thanks in advance.
Here is one translated link. Do read the comments.
Here is another.

BTW the price of Thar HT in Europe (17,600 euros) converted in INR comes about 11Lakhs +.
I dont know about their import rules but if they also add 100% Import duty, then in domestic, the Thar should sell @ 5-6Lakhs

Last edited by offroad_maniac : 19th February 2010 at 18:05.
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Old 19th February 2010, 21:14   #835
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Sutripta I assume you mean Cast Iron for CI?

If so I have nothing against the material. So many of the worlds legendary engines were built using it. My inline 8 Packards are all CI and a virtual delight in refinement

But in the 30's mfgs started switching to aluminium pistons and heads and eventually blocks.

All I meant is when the whole world has switched to aluminium does it make sense for a present day mfg to opt for this material whose weight disadvantage has serious implications on fuel economy and handling?

Its a bit bewildering that engineers would opt for cast iron in a new engine family.

We all know the Tata's have stumped the engineering world with the Nano. But CI in engines today? Not very sure about it making sense.
First of all, could we request the moderators to move all non-Thar related technical discussions to a separate thread in the technical section. All this discussion is a) seriously cluttering up this thread, and b) given the highly specialized focus of the 4x4 forum, and the (for general technical discussions) misleading thread topic, is keeping away knowledgeable people who can contribute.

All engineering is a matter of compromise. Including clean sheet designs. Even "no compromise" designs. It is a question of balance, and the balance that is chosen depends on a huge number of factors. Every choice will have with it a set of advantages AND disadvantages. One should not be dogmatic about anything. To give one top of the head example. The engine reputed to be the most powerful (and quite reliable to boot) in F1 (till the present time), talked about in hushed reverential tones, ticked a number of "wrong" checkboxes!

Or take what you have just mentioned:- refinement. Other things being equal (yes, it is a cover my a**e statement) a CI engine will be more refined than a Al one. Ask Jaguar (The Hush Merchants) the trouble they had in the (I might have the timeline wrong) late 70s. Or compare the (my personal opinion) M1000 with the Esteem. Again, roses and thorns go together.

Just ticking checkboxes is not enough. Why is a simple Honda engine smoother than a Kinetic engine with a balance shaft?

To really do justice to the topic (engineering choices, not just CI/Al), we'll have to go into things like difference between know how and know why, ability, confidence, and hubris, the role of management in engineering, the day to day technical environment in which one is operating, and our personal expectation of technology (do all the doors and windows of your home open and close properly, and seal perfectly. Do your taps operate smoothly. Do your...) the .... Well, you get the drift. This is not the thread for it, and I am not the person for it also.

Sorry if I have been rambling (I have) and boring (hope not too much).

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 19th February 2010, 22:48   #836
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@DKG well said, a perfect unbiased opinion.

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Old 24th February 2010, 01:09   #837
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Okay! why is there Silence. Is the steam fizzing out? C'mon BHPians spit out more on the Thar - Body, Roll cage, tyres, rims, seats, speedo cluster, lights, etc.
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Old 24th February 2010, 08:36   #838
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Okay! why is there Silence. Is the steam fizzing out? C'mon BHPians spit out more on the Thar - Body, Roll cage, tyres, rims, seats, speedo cluster, lights, etc.

Enough has been said about it - Maybe you should read all the pages

Put your money down and we'll talk!
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Old 24th February 2010, 10:37   #839
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Enough has been said about it - Maybe you should read all the pages

Put your money down and we'll talk!
I agree, we have been doing the talking for ages now, now it's time for Mahindra to do the walk ...
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Old 24th February 2010, 11:47   #840
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Dear all - I was also wondering why the sudden silence? We are now completely immersed in getting the requisite homologation through. These are the "slog overs" that we have to perforce cross, to convert our dream to reality. Guys, pray! Please pray! We need every single prayer that you can give us! This reminds me of a line from the song in the movie 3 idiots - "agarbattiyan raakh ho gayi, God ko phir bhi dikha nahin"). . AAL IJH WELL, AAL IJH WELL.

Dear Yikes6633 - reply to your post above is - body, MM540 / roll cage, optional dealer fitment / tyres, P235/70R16 optional P235/75R15 / rims, 6.5J*16 steel (as you guys will change anything we give anyways) / seats, to suit 7 seater CMVR configuration / speedometer cluster, same as Bolero VLX / lights, CMVR controlled.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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