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Old 4th March 2010, 15:04   #946
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I'd like to further add that our best bet in getting something which is decent is Behram Dhabhar. Its a complex task to convince all and sundry within a large company like M&M on what should go into a 4x4 offering.

If we keep insisting that unless M&M redoes the front end, steering and axle, the 4wd Thar won't find buyers, then in all likelihood keeping in mind the major changes required they just might scrap the idea of a 4x4 !

So lets keep gunning for the Thar with MLD. This should be a nice package guys. For MLD they have to revisit the axle bit when Behram can possibly squeeze in the FFRA as a simple parts bin solution instead of making stronger SFRA axles that can handle the extra loads of MLD.

Last edited by DKG : 4th March 2010 at 15:09.
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Old 4th March 2010, 16:47   #947
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Guys
We have a senior person form a major automaker making time to involve us in behind the scene activities that go on in a large corporate.

He is the only guy doing this and I think that some of us are now mistakenly taking out personal frustrations on him.

Has any one from Tata or Maruti or even Toyota bothered to participate in these forums?

I think it is time to stop petty wisecracks and appriciate the fact that he has taken a bold first step. We should not put him and others off participating in such forums.

I read this thread every day and am looking forward to replacing our ageing workhorse CJ with something like a Thar. We need a good GB, 4x4, PS and a tow hook. The rest is an overkill for practical estate use.
Cheers
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Old 4th March 2010, 17:21   #948
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The more I read,..the more convinced I get about purpose of design and intended use.

If you want high speed cruisability,..there is a compromise on off-road capability.
Since a car meant for highway use has to be stiffly sprung (relatively speaking), limiting wheel articulation.

The same goes for GC,..too high a GC would mean pronounced body roll at speeds.
Hence consequently when kept low to aid on road manners directly compromises off road ability.
Cars intended for safe passenger transport such as most SUV's are for want of a better word going soft.
You may say regulation has its noose around development,..and thats exactly where the compromise is drawn.

Honestly how many off the off roaders can flex like this today,.....
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Old 4th March 2010, 17:31   #949
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I totally agree with DKG. I feel we need to take what we can get. If the final version of Thar comes with IFS, I think it will still appeal to the mass market. For anyone who wants to build a hard core off-roader the Mayapuri option will exist. NGCS chasis should soon start coming up in the military auctions.
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Old 4th March 2010, 18:12   #950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sharath,

You sound like a man of experience (Top Level or Lower Level).
I don't just sound like it, I actually am, and I have seen both sides of the coin. In the past two decades, I have worked in many huge bureaucracies, even in companies with 3 lakh employees. And now I run a company, but still deal with huge companies in the role of a vendor. So I can easily imagine what Behram can do and cannot do.

While you are shooting pointed questions at him about M&M design decisions, you got to realize that he doesn't have the freedom that you have. Even if he has the correct answers for your questions, he may not be at liberty to reveal it on a public forum. As pjbiju already mentioned, if Anand Mahindra was into offroading himself, then I am sure Thar would have come out exactly as I and you wanted and more, while satisfying the regulations. That is because no expense would be spared and no Mahindra bureaucrat who values his job would stand in the way.

I am sure anyone who has followed the Thar discussions here understands that Behram has done all he can within his powers to get us something modern. But it can't be exactly what we want because of the various reasons that have been beaten to death already. He is the only major car-maker R&D chief who actually interacts with passionate auto-fans like us. Let's not make him regret that.

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Why should we even bother to understand their bureaucracy, Is it to justify to ourselves, soothe ourselves, that our intelligence has been insulted, so to further re-affirm that intelligence we try to develop a better understanding of something far more abstract (another Organizations Bureaucracy).
Behram asked our input not as a M&M official, but purely in his individual capacity. It doesn't mean that now M&M has an obligation to deliver what we asked. If we don't get what we want, we move on, there is no point crucifying Behram. He is doing the best what he can within the framework of CMVR/BS4 and Mahindra bureaucracy.
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Old 4th March 2010, 19:11   #951
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Hi Sharath,

Forget the Bureaucracy.

What is Modern on the Thar? Take a good look at the Wish List and see what all features he has given, agreed he has no reason to oblige us on that, but then why did he go against the general trend/expectations, will help us understand the vehicle better.

1) Is IFS Modern?
2) MM540 body Style is Modern? Will it pass a crash test?
3) 5 Speed Gearbox Modern?

The Only Reason I can think of the Thar not being what we expected.

1) IFS.

2) Poor Design in terms of safety, considering the Power (100Bhp+)
i) R&P Steering for an off-roader
ii) No Company Fitted Roll-Cage (6-Point)
iii) FFRA

We saw the explanations to why the THAR has IFS,
At first it was Diff fouling with the engine, then diff fouling with the Crankcase, then re-tooling the cowl/firewall.

Most of the Off-roaders built their JEEPs, using M&M Parts & Inventory, People by now have figured out what is the reason for the IFS.

As Chief R&D man, he did not feel the need to go in for FFRA?
when its a know fact that FFRA has an built in safety feature.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 4th March 2010, 19:44   #952
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Arka, I never said Thar is fully modern. I guess it has the modern engine and chassis at least compared to our Jeeps and Gypsies.

And if Behram hasn't answered your questions, it is most probably because he can't reveal the decision process. He surely has to think about NDA every time he makes a public post.

BTW, if Suzuki Jimny DDiS ends up coming to India in near future, most of us from this thread will switch our allegiance to Suzuki. It has most things we want, front/rear live axles with coil springs, lockable cabin, AC, etc.


Last edited by Samurai : 4th March 2010 at 19:47.
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:04   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sharath,
As Chief R&D man, he did not feel the need to go in for FFRA?
Arka, you are quite right when you say FFRA is much safer and more desirable. However, many of us think you are wrong when you say that Behram did not feel the need to go in for FFRA. We do not know what he thought on this matter. He may not be at liberty to say what he thinks given his positon. We do not know if the decision was his. Perhaps at a later time he can deliver the FFRA. My guess is that he would like the Thar to have it. Like Samurai I have seen bureaucracies melt down and shoot themselves in the foot, time after time. Management can be absolutely pig-headed. I can tell you of a large famous battle where the subordinates of a commanding general told that fearless leader that a large enemy force was approaching their flank. The general kept staring straight ahead at the main lines and would not even turn his head to see the huge dust cloud the enemy force was making. He just informed his junior officers that it was not the enemy but friendly reinforcements. He did not even send scouts to find out. It was the enemy and the general and his staff were almost captured as the enemy attacked and crushed the flank and routed the army. Behram is a subordinate of M&M. There is only so much he can do and we do not really know what that limit is.
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Old 4th March 2010, 21:35   #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Sutripta, no point doing post-mortems here,
Hi Spike,
Intention was to try and look at the problem through your (as in decision makers) eyes. And not only with regard to the Thar.

I was not giving much importance to the gripes and complaints of the hardcore OTR fraternity (to each his own), but Arka, by compiling the lists, makes a VERY compelling case for rationalisation.

The MM of today has the ability (competence and confidence) to undertake engineering changes. So the question becomes why not, and most probably the answer is nontechnical. Which is why I asked those questions.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 5th March 2010, 03:35   #955
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Here's more info about the Thar being offered in Italy

:: MAHINDRA THAR ::
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Old 5th March 2010, 11:41   #956
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I think one of the demands in the wish list was that we get an offroader than can also take us to far away places in reasonable comfort for the actual off-roading event. Giving an engine and powertrain in a Jeep that can actually cruise at 100+ speeds surely warrants better stability on the highways.

Given that when the Thar is launched, its 2-wheel drive version will far outnumber the 4-wheel drive version, stability on the highways is more important from the company's perspective. They would not want to shoot themselves in the foot by having a vehicle that can be driven at high speeds and then turns turtle at the drop of a hat. Combine that with the soft-top and it is going to be a disaster design.

I am sure if Behram was given a free hand and free budget, then you would have got two versions of the Thar. So I do respect him for coming to this forum and then at least listening to us. If this list gets extended to Dr. Goenka and Anand Mahindra, then probably we will get better responses.

I am sure the resourceful off-roaders of our forum will find the means of modifying the Thar to meet their specifications. I wonder if there is any off-roader offered by any manufacturer in the world that are not modified by the hardcore off-roading community. There will always be something that they want to improve upon or modify to suit their needs/terrain.

So people may have to live with MM540/550s off the army for a cheaper pure off-roading vehicle.

As I stated earlier, I am sold onto the Thar. If I can get a decent lockable hard-top (which can also be removed as quickly) along with A/C and Power Steering, then my Swift is up for sale. Let the Thar make some money for Mahindra and then perhaps Mr. Behram can have a better say within his company.

Thank you Behram.

-Biju
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Old 5th March 2010, 12:01   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjbiju View Post
Let the Thar make some money for Mahindra and then perhaps Mr. Behram can have a better say within his company.

Thank you Behram.

-Biju
yes that is what we must do now and must respect Mr Behram,s interactions with very good intentions.If thar meets the capabilities of the 540s and comfort of the scorpios then the mods as Biju rightly said is our job.There is NO off roading vehicle is available off the shelf ready staright out for OTRs

Raj
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Old 5th March 2010, 12:10   #958
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For those who believe

1) IFS is the way for Better Road Speeds.

2) FFRA is a modification (For Land-Rovers, Merc G-Wagen, TLC 70 Series it is OEM feature)





BTW that is Solid Axle with Parabolic Leaf Springs, and they do have a 90" WB with a Hard-Top.
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Old 5th March 2010, 15:04   #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
BTW, if Suzuki Jimny DDiS ends up coming to India in near future, most of us from this thread will switch our allegiance to Suzuki. It has most things we want, front/rear live axles with coil springs, lockable cabin, AC, etc.
How about this

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Old 5th March 2010, 15:42   #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sharath,

Forget the Bureaucracy.

What is Modern on the Thar?
=======================
Regards,

Arka

Hi Arka,
I agree with your assessment of the Thar. Rather than wait and then get disappointed with what M&M delivers with the Thar, I took matters in my own hands.

My MM550 now has a 2.6 Scorpio motor(mildly modified), 4x4 with live front axle, 5 speed. This torque monster is an absolute blast and can out-accelerate my Palio 1.6

Gaurav

Last edited by Jaggu : 5th March 2010 at 15:58. Reason: Please avoid quoting entire large threads for short replies. Affect readability especially for mobile browsers. Thanks
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