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Old 6th March 2010, 00:55   #976
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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
A

Did have to do extensive modification of the firewall to fit the motor. Also did custom motor mounts.
Strange! I had to do abolutely nothing to my firewall!! Custom mounts of course, but no firewall mods.
I even used the original gearbox and transfercase mounting points.
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Old 6th March 2010, 00:57   #977
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Whether the Thar is designed for hardcore offroader specs or soft skilled off roader specs, I'm sure that the priority is safety.

If FFRA is fail safe then it must be incorporated. We don't want to ride in a 4X4 whose SFRA is a recipe for disaster and somewhere behind our minds we have a bell ringing and sighing that the SFRA may lock out if the hubs/spline fail (due to whatever reason - overloading/excess torque etc.) leading to a tipover/inability to tow the vehicle incase the wheels get locked due to SFRA failure, from a remote place.

It would be good if we can understand the justification of using a SFRA instead of a FFRA. I also understand that both of these have advantages and disadvantages.

I would like to understand the advantages of the SFRA on the Thar and the disadvantages of the FFRA on the Thar besides the fact that the FFRA's are more solid in extreme offroading conditions.

Last edited by yikes6633 : 6th March 2010 at 01:16. Reason: spelling mistake and incorrect quote used earlier - now removed
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Old 6th March 2010, 04:16   #978
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Folks,

M&M has got the Thar configuration plain wrong. A front torsion bar set up with IFS is not the way to make a Jeep.

Rather than try and justify why M&M cannot be wrong, lets understand what the point of the Thar should have been: A better MM540.

If the goal is to build a better MM540, M&M should have thought very hard about what really made the MM540/550 so successful and try to improve it rather than fundamentally change the formula.

Understand how the American CJ evolved into the TJ and then JK. The TJ and JK have been incredibly successful and are true to their Jeep heritage. The layout of front and rear live axles has been retained, while improving handling both on and off road, comfort, safety, etc. The CJ-TJ-JK evolution should have been studied very carefully by everyone in M&M if they wanted the same success as Jeep/Chrysler.

The Thar will not be accepted as a real Jeep in the export market. And I doubt that the Indian military will approve the front IFS layout. So unfortunately, the Thar appears to be an Invader in Jeep's clothing, which I expect will be a sales failure if it ever makes it to the production line.
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Old 6th March 2010, 04:30   #979
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Originally Posted by yikes6633 View Post

Statement 1)....Whether the Thar is designed for hardcore offroader specs or soft skilled off roader specs, I'm sure that the priority is safety.


Statement 2)... I would like to understand the advantages of the SFRA on the Thar and the disadvantages of the FFRA on the Thar besides the fact that the FFRA's are more solid in extreme offroading conditions.
My friend, it does not seem like you are all that sure to me. No matter, you can find a general discussion of axles at:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ating-etc.html (Axles: Live/Dead, Semi/Full Floating etc..)

There are several other posts in other threads as well.
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Old 6th March 2010, 04:53   #980
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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
Understand how the American CJ evolved into the TJ and then JK. The TJ and JK have been incredibly successful and are true to their Jeep heritage.
.
Maybe, just maybe, the Thar will evolve or open the way to the development of something much more acceptable to hardcore off roaders.

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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
The Thar will not be accepted as a real Jeep in the export market.
.
There is a difference between BEING a real jeep and being ACCEPTED as a real jeep. Dabwali and Moga suggest that "jeep wannabe" is a niche unto itself. If it sells, it's okay with me. Maybe then Behram will be allowed to give us an off road world beater.

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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
... So unfortunately, the Thar appears to be an Invader in Jeep's clothing...
I own an Invader. I prefer to think of it as Aishwarya Rai in no clothing whatsoever...thank you very much!.....she never calls me, she never writes me....(heavy sigh).

Last edited by DirtyDan : 6th March 2010 at 05:11.
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Old 6th March 2010, 10:34   #981
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
My friend, it does not seem like you are all that sure to me. No matter, you can find a general discussion of axles at:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ating-etc.html (Axles: Live/Dead, Semi/Full Floating etc..)

There are several other posts in other threads as well.
Thanks, however the point I was trying to make is that there definitely is some rational to plonking the Thar with the SFRA, what is it and Why is it?

Any idea???
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Old 6th March 2010, 11:18   #982
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Default The saga continues!

Guys,

What ever you write, you are not going to get solid axle up front and FFRA on Thar now. So please move on.

I completely agree upon Redmm340's comment that it is an art to be able to carry forward the legacy. Pure utility and off road spec vehicles even today have solid front axle. TLC 200 owners also crib about Toyota going the car way, but that vehicle retails at astronomical price! G-Wagen is another example of continuous refinement and moving upmarket with keeping the basic off road essentials intact!

Mahindra Thar in 4wd form is going to be an off road toy for enthusiasts. lack of solid axle will be sorely missed.

So will Thar sell?- I bet yes!! It will capture all the market what MM540 had when alive. Fire, Police, BSF, government offices etc. There, 4wd versions with IFS will be appreciated as wifes of high ranking babus will not complain of harsh ride any more.

But will it fetch enthusiasts market? (Too small to consider though)

No- if some one is going to buy for pure off-roading!! He will still look for NGCS MM550 with a bigger engine.

Yes- If some one is looking for a multipurpose vehicle that can do a bit of cars job and a bit of jeeps job.

So the saga of a illusionary jeep that is comfortable to drive on road and great off road continues, the saga of chasing ones own tail continues


P.s- Going by spikes statement i am still hopeful- "your wishes will be considered, though not fully"
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Old 6th March 2010, 11:36   #983
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Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
No point in debating this...the Thar DOES NOT meet the off-roading capabilities of the MM540. Period.
If not to debate why this thread as this thread is only deates.Thar is not even driven on/off road most of us.Let us see the performance of the mechine and see then talk about the wish list.If its not meeting your wish list dont go for it but dont try to kill an idea which is actually in the final stages.There is NO limit for wish lists.

Raj
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Old 6th March 2010, 13:19   #984
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Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
What ever you write, you are not going to get solid axle up front and FFRA on Thar now. So please move on.
Vinod,

We are only asking as to why it has not been implemented, since it was a design, from scratch.

Since its essentially a Scorpio, how come the Multi-link Coil has not been implemented on the rear Axle? At least The rear end would be moving in the right direction (MODERN).

Regards,

Arka

PS - Has M&M withheld your P.F
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Old 6th March 2010, 13:36   #985
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@ VN: So its a complete waste of our time is it, giving our inputs / thoughts / suggestions? We rather build our own 4x4 right?

@EX670C: Hold on : THAR Release 2.0 will cater to "some" of your needs.

@DB: I did notice that the THAR did not have a crankcase guard. Does it not affect the reliability of the vehicle

Last edited by headers : 6th March 2010 at 13:54.
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Old 6th March 2010, 13:49   #986
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While I am sure some of you are having the time of your lives with these technical discussions, the rest of us "lesser motals" are bored to death with this thread which is now less about the vehicle and more about one-upmanship. Yes I have been educated about FFRA and SFRA and IFS and Solid Axles etc. and I welcome that, but the back and forth between the two camps is really not helping.

I'd be really surprised if M&M puts our wish-list ahead of their sales success. The THAR will be a huge seller purely based on looks and the implied potential for going off-road. I suspect less than 5% of Thar buyers will take it off-road in OTR conditions. Actually...I suspect that the number of regular OTR goers is less than 1% of the total automobile market...so why bother with them?

Money is king and if the Thar isn't up to your expectations from an off-road capability stand-point then there are several Gypsies, MM540/550 and Gurkhas out there for you.

Getting back on topic:
1. What is the current status of the Thar homologation (sorry if I missed this info in the axle-mess over the last 5-6 pages)

2. When do we get to see pics of it on the assembly line, going through quality testing

3. When do we get to know the launch-date?

4. Is it possible to see images of the final version of the Thar's interiors?

5. Has the cabin dB levels been measured with the windows up at highway speeds with stock tires?

6. What is the height of the seat level from the ground?

7. Is it feasible to have pre-bookings for Tbhp serious buyers?

Thanks!!
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Old 6th March 2010, 14:24   #987
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Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
While I am sure some of you are having the time of your lives with these technical discussions, the rest of us "lesser motals" are bored to death with this thread which is now less about the vehicle and more about one-upmanship. Yes I have been educated about FFRA and SFRA and IFS and Solid Axles etc. and I welcome that, but the back and forth between the two camps is really not helping.

I'd be really surprised if M&M puts our wish-list ahead of their sales success. The THAR will be a huge seller purely based on looks and the implied potential for going off-road. I suspect less than 5% of Thar buyers will take it off-road in OTR conditions. Actually...I suspect that the number of regular OTR goers is less than 1% of the total automobile market...so why bother with them?
Hi GS,

Had the THAR thread put up in the cars section, the 1% of the 1% of the vehicle owning population would not have even bothered about it.

Since it is in the 4WD section, we are asking the questions.

The Thar will sell because it LOOKS like a MM540, had they given the Mechanical Components which made the MM540 an OTR legend in INDIA.

The vehicle would have been a true Modern CLASSIC.

For those of you who are scared that our asking questions will affect the release of the vehicle, ask your self this question, why make a vehicle with such a questionable mechanical system.

And you should feel happy that we have reached that stage in INDIA, where prospective customer base have the experience & understanding to question the manufacturer.

Its a very useful exchange for the manufacturer, the can avoid a debacle.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 6th March 2010, 14:44   #988
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Vinod,

We are only asking as to why it has not been implemented, since it was a design, from scratch.

Since its essentially a Scorpio, how come the Multi-link Coil has not been implemented on the rear Axle? At least The rear end would be moving in the right direction (MODERN).
some how "the design from the scratch" does not hold right for me. Where have they did most of the R&D in THAR while building it? it was for shortening the scorpio chassis to match the 540 tub. The project seems to be involved only the chassis guys in the development of this THAR and no much involvement from any other dept.
No Multi-link coil because these chassis might be a left out pieces that were made for first generation scorpio crde during the transition to second generation when customers had complaints of the ride quality after comparing with innova. may be second genration thar would come with those multi-link coil and a scoop on the bonnet.
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Old 6th March 2010, 15:16   #989
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Default 1% strong market!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Vinod,

We are only asking as to why it has not been implemented, since it was a design, from scratch.

Since its essentially a Scorpio, how come the Multi-link Coil has not been implemented on the rear Axle? At least The rear end would be moving in the right direction (MODERN).

Regards,

Arka
Arka,
You have asked them and got explanations which most of us don't quite agree with, hence i said- "Move On"!!


@Headers- Well, was it a waste of time?It depends upon how serious is ones demand/wish was ! If one can live with it fine else wait, wait wait!!

For some of us OK is NO LONGER OK!- Mahindra themselves dont seem to believe in their own tag line!

Quote:
'd be really surprised if M&M puts our wish-list ahead of their sales success. The THAR will be a huge seller purely based on looks and the implied potential for going off-road. I suspect less than 5% of Thar buyers will take it off-road in OTR conditions. Actually...I suspect that the number of regular OTR goers is less than 1% of the total automobile market...so why bother with them?
@gsferrari,

Solid axle and FFRA is basic's for a true 4x4. Cannot term as wish list! If M&M thought not to bother with those 1% off road going market, then it wouldn't have come to those 1% of the market asking for wish list. This 1% of the market can influence rest 99% of the market. That's the power of an auto forum.

In market abroad a cheap jeep like Thar will provide base of extensive modifications. Without solid axle how big can you go on tyre upgrade? 29 inch fine but what about 35 inch/ 37 inch tyres? How Jeep wranglers have it can go for custom lifts. What will you do with Thar? How high can u body lift it?

You would ask me what percent of Thar would go for tyre upgrade? May be 1% of that 1% market, but abroad it is going to be 99% of the market who buys Thar.


Thar will sell no doubt! All i am afraid Thar may not be able to capture the real potential of 4x4 market abroad. It will end up being short of an Icon which it could be if it had solid axle with the other strong mechanical s which already it has!

One of my fav video- Most of you must have seen this. Also signifies the strength of the solid axle! check out at 2.26 seconds, not bad i would say!



Look at the jump-

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 6th March 2010 at 15:34.
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Old 6th March 2010, 15:41   #990
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Edit: Thar in its present form is not that bad vehicle at all. In fact we all are M&M lovers and hence we drive MM540's and other jeeps. All we wanted was the legacy to continue and the world to experience what a true Mahindra 4x4 could be!

So bring out Thar for now but please upgrade it to proper specs!
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