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Old 9th March 2010, 18:03   #1051
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Default OTR capabilities

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Originally Posted by bantejas View Post
Hi Arka,

1. Can there be a Thar which would suffice the following two requirements:
a. Hard Core off-roader
b. A family car for long drives (with a cruise speed of say around 100-120 kmph since Indian roads are now getting only better).

2. Is my first question valid?

These questions are on behalf of those guys who can afford to have one car and have the best of both: sheer adrenaline rush and marital status intact (what I here mean is that it should behave as a car for the family for a daily ride as well).
Hi Bantejas,

The MM540 Series of vehicles were as Hardcore as they get with Leaf Springs, Culminating in the NGCSMM550XD.

The Hardcore OTR capabilities and High Speed cruising don't go hand in hand after 60-80Kmph in the MM540 family. (This is the average safe limit, there are faster MM540s, but more of an exception, than the rule)

The Thar would have the capability to Satisfy both needs if it had
1) Solid Axle With Leaf Springs in the front
2) FFRA

Regards,

Arka
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Old 9th March 2010, 18:55   #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
The Thar would have the capability to Satisfy both needs if it had
1) Solid Axle With Leaf Springs in the front
2) FFRA
I dont mind Solid Axle Coil Springs either. Infact IF the THAR is to be priced above 6 lakhs and needs to make a statement about its high speed comfort as well as offroad virtues, then Solid Axle Coil Spring is the way to go.

PS: Those at the Bangalore JT annual OTR who witnessed the Nissan Patrol do the rock climb before the descent would understood S A Coil Springs at work.
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Old 9th March 2010, 21:30   #1053
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Some more pics please.
Or atleast update something from M&M pls. A recent test Drive report may be (in 4WD mode)
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Old 9th March 2010, 21:59   #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
i think even after the launch of much awaited THAR, offroad mud pluggers will still be buying ex-army 550s and converting them as per their needs and requirments.

this will be done mostly by people who cant afford to buy a 6L+ THAR just to satisfy their offroad 4WD desires but still want a capable 4WD vehicle (2nd vehicle) for themselves to indulge in offroad activities!
It is not really a question of afford-ability. Even if one is willing to put down 10L, can you get a vehicle without question marks? What hardcore offroaders are asking is not a complete ready-to-offroad vehicle. The term ready-to-offroad can mean different to different people.

Can you get a new vehicle from any car maker in India that can be modified endlessly to suit the offroading style of the owner? Outside of Gypsy and Major, not really. After this month, not even those. Gurkha comes out most offroad ready, but modification options are quite limited. Gurkha too is BSIII, so I don't know what happens after this month. Will they still sell in small towns, I don't know.

What Arka is trying to say is that if Thar had came out with live axle and FFRA in front and rear, it would have had endless possibilities for future offroad mods. The stock model would satisfy most buyers and at the same time allow hardcore guys to consider bigger tyres, diff locks, lift kits, SPOA, etc.

I have got stuck a few times offroad on the GV and every time the body sits on the ground, making it very difficult to recover. That almost never happens in the Jeep.
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:00   #1055
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[quote=Samurai;1774137]

Can you get a new vehicle from any car maker in India that can be modified endlessly to suit the offroading style of the owner? Outside of Gypsy and Major, not really. After this month, not even those. Gurkha comes out most offroad ready, but modification options are quite limited. Gurkha too is BSIII, so I don't know what happens after this month. Will they still sell in small towns, I don't know.




Hey! Whats going to happen post this month?

Are the Gypsy and Major going off production?
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:49   #1056
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I think i should have been more clear in my post about the THAR being a complete offroad vehicle when it comes out of the factory as a finished product in that 6L+ price tag!

i agree with some of the gurus of offroad/4WD vehicles that THAR with live axle and FFRA would have satisfied the needs and requirements of the offroad community, but MM is looking far beyond that small community to generate bigger sales volumes with IFS to give it on road 100+kmph capabilites.

but a serious offroad vehicle cant be expected to provided on road cruising speeds, look at Wranglers, they are nightmares on road but offroad kings!

4WD vehicles used in desert safari in dubai are 99% with IFS except the nissan patrols which comes with live front axle! they are mosty to provide better on road capabilites.

so coming back to the discussion, the THAR is currently not satisfying the demands/needs/requirements of the serious offroad community with IFS and no live axle, which limites the capabilities of the vehicle and restricts the modification to vehicle.

lets keep this discussion purely professional and not get personal with anyone.
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Old 10th March 2010, 10:05   #1057
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[quote=yikes6633;1774250]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

Hey! Whats going to happen post this month?

Are the Gypsy and Major going off production?
Due to BS IV emission norms Gypsy and Major would be discontinued.
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Old 10th March 2010, 10:14   #1058
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[quote=JackSparrow;1774619]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes6633 View Post

Due to BS IV emission norms Gypsy and Major would be discontinued.
Gypsy is BS-III while Major is BS-II and is already not allowed in 11 cities. As post April1 2010, the whole country moves to BS-III, Major will get discontinued and Gypsy will continue to sell outside the 11 cities where BS-IV is applicable.
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Old 10th March 2010, 10:57   #1059
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Default Serious vs Hardcore

Hi Guys,

Most guys who never come off-road or have never gone OTRs in the INDIAN context keep commenting about Serious and Hardcore.

Keeping Avalkonda in mind.

A Nissan Patrol with 6L worth of Mods did the obstacles as if most did not exist.

DKG did the same in a CJ3B with out any fuss, most of the JEEPs did the obstacles with out much of a fuss, and they all cost less than the mods on the NisPat 6L.

A Nissan Patrol is pretty good, so are the TLC & Land-Rovers.

It was serendipity for M&M,

1)Solid Axle - Rugged as they get
2 Leaf Spring and - Easy to locate/fix the axles and service.
3)95" Wheel Base, - most modifiable wheel-base
4)underpowered engines - you dig in less and to make up for low torque by gearing
5)a very low-crawl ratio - better control over crawling obstacles.

So what other Off-Roader vehicles need with mods, the M&M MM540 series culminating with the NGCS MM550XD had as a pedigree.

A 90bhp TCIC engine with 20-22Kgm torque on a MM550XD is enough to knock the light out of any international 4WD.

But instead of focusing on the RFC & Outback Challenge, the Thar is ready for the Raid-De-Himalaya, and cruising speed of 100kmph.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 10th March 2010, 11:41   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
1)Solid Axle - Rugged as they get
2 Leaf Spring and - Easy to locate/fix the axles and service.
3)95" Wheel Base, - most modifiable wheel-base
4)underpowered engines - you dig in less and to make up for low torque by gearing
5)a very low-crawl ratio - better control over crawling obstacles.

A 90bhp TCIC engine with 20-22Kgm torque on a MM550XD (NGCS) is enough to knock the light out of any international 4WD.
With above specs it will be the best Indian jeep we can get. No more drooling over Wranglers & Def-90's.
If launched abroad with these specs, people there will go crazy for this cheap & reliable (Easy to fix) offroading vehicles.

But, it is just another story that starts with "IF".
Lets hope that Thar satisfies to most of its promises before NGCS 550XD comes out of Army duties.

OT: Which is the current M&M vehicle Army is using? Are they still ordering 550XD or they started using Strikers (IFS) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
But instead of focusing on the RFC & Outback Challenge, the Thar is ready for the Raid-De-Himalaya, and cruising speed of 100kmph.
Well lets hope that current Thar sells with decent numbers. Later on we can HOPE that M&M will launch a SFA version as a replacement to Major ??????

Can someone post a review & sales figures in Europe?
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Old 10th March 2010, 11:42   #1061
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Guys let me throw in some juice into the discussion. If you had to choose between FFRA without locking diffs and SFRA with MLD what would you prefer?

I know ideally we'd like to see MLD with FFRA. But I'm sure you all will agree that the low volumes makes it tough to justify developing an FFRA with MLD. I am not saying M&M can't do it, just that its tough to get it done at this stage given the low volumes of the 4x4 Thar.

Lets have your views.

Last edited by DKG : 10th March 2010 at 11:44.
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Old 10th March 2010, 12:21   #1062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Guys let me throw in some juice into the discussion. If you had to choose between FFRA without locking diffs and SFRA with MLD what would you prefer?

I know ideally we'd like to see MLD with FFRA. But I'm sure you all will agree that the low volumes makes it tough to justify developing an FFRA with MLD. I am not saying M&M can't do it, just that its tough to get it done at this stage given the low volumes of the 4x4 Thar.

Lets have your views.
I am concerned about my safety specially in a powerful vehicle like Thar! I would choose FFRA open diff to MLD with SFRA! What if the axle breaks under extreme stress specially when the wheel is wedged between rocks? Open diff is a stress reliever.

To the FFRA later i can add LSD in to it or even MLD or even auto diff locks and if Bhagwan becomes meherbaan - ARB lockers both front & rear!

When base is fool proof nothing to worry!

p.s- The question is why not best of both worlds? FFRA with MLD? It is good for market abroad also!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 10th March 2010 at 12:24.
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Old 10th March 2010, 13:23   #1063
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Default 30 Spline /4 Pinion Carrier/ FFRA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Guys let me throw in some juice into the discussion. If you had to choose between FFRA without locking diffs and SFRA with MLD what would you prefer?

I know ideally we'd like to see MLD with FFRA. But I'm sure you all will agree that the low volumes makes it tough to justify developing an FFRA with MLD. I am not saying M&M can't do it, just that its tough to get it done at this stage given the low volumes of the 4x4 Thar.

Lets have your views.
Hi DKG,

1) SFRA + MLD will not make any difference to a newbie driver, in fact it can cause the axle to fail for lack of driving skill and over aggressive driving.

2) FFRA = Bomb Proof reliability, for newbies and Oldies.

3) DB Sir and Spike = You guys can definitely make a Dana 44 FFRA with 30 Splines & 4 pinion Carrier that will make it . I know it will take a few months, we guys can wait.
i) Atom Bomb Proof
ii) Endless option for Lockers/LSD.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 10th March 2010 at 13:24.
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Old 10th March 2010, 13:29   #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
When base is fool proof nothing to worry!
The best thing to be followed. Any guess why Bolero is No#1 UV..
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Old 10th March 2010, 14:23   #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
You guys can definitely make a Dana 44 FFRA with 30 Splines & 4 pinion Carrier that will make it . I know it will take a few months, we guys can wait.
Arka, alas some kind words. What about the Solid axle with RCBT then?

Spike
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