Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Vehicles


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th March 2010, 15:25   #1066
Senior - BHPian
 
vinod_nookala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,737
Thanked: 410 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Arka, alas some kind words. What about the Solid axle with RCBT then?

Spike
Solid axle with RCBT - Am i hearing it right?? Release 2wd Thars for now. We will wait!!! Indian 4wd guys have been trained to wait ever since they become 4wdriving eligible- be it a new vehicle development or a new vehicle purchase!!


Please prioritize release of solid axle Thar abroad first. In India except for few guys here it really doesn't matter. The real market is abroad! Thar is being sold abroad at base version of 13,000 Euros goes up to 17,000 euros. Jeep wrangler starts at 22,000 Euros and goes up to 35,000 depending upon endless factory list on lockers and hard top options!

Thar implications-
Thar is expected to be a third or fourth car there. It will be a farm vehicle and hence will be used off road more often than even Jeep wrangler. Jeep wrangler is the most used vehicle off road than any of their competitors-a recent study shows that. Mahindra Thar can surpass that and can be a common scene off road if it has a solid axle because of its upgrade ability. A three inch lift kit of YJ costs 500 Euros! SO add every bit of lockers, lift kits etc you still will be way less than wrangler cost!

Mahindra Heritage-
Excellent off road but dud on road! Plus 1990's Mahindra were known for their electrical problems and rusting problems. Mahindra failed then because that vehicle was so crude that people avoided taking them on road. Off road i doubt if any body had any doubts about its abilities. Many would still remember that Cj340 with tall general grabber tyres which they tested against wrangler and Rcosta in UK

What Thar must aim at-
Thar must not aim to what wrangler is trying to be, good on road road and good off road! Thar must try to be excellent off road with all the possible hard ware as a base package. Thar will not be a 24 x7 vehicle abroad. It will be used as a bigger ATV. Now if it is not good in what it is aiming to be then where will it sell?

I am afraid that Thar must not be written off as a cheap copy of erstwhile CJ7 that has only looks and no go off road compared to its competition against which Mahindra is pitching!

Honestly ask yourself will Thar be able to take on Wrangler off road with open diffs or even MLD? I bet if it is army NGCS mm550 XD it can give a tough competition! Hence there is no substitute for solid axle off road. Please bring it on!

Few pics of lift kits, wrangler on lift kit, legendary production vehicles with solid axle etc

p.s The last but one is yet to become a production reality with solid axle
Attached Thumbnails
Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-feat05toyota_lc70.jpg  

Attached Images
       

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 10th March 2010 at 15:43.
vinod_nookala is offline  
Old 10th March 2010, 18:17   #1067
Senior - BHPian
 
vinod_nookala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,737
Thanked: 410 Times
Default

Watch this Tata safari video. This safari is on a lift kit. Suspension is articulating nicely. But is it front or rear? Please see that rear solid axle is saving the day for this safari! Now imagine if this vehicle had independent suspension all round. Would there be any possibilities left?

This is just to re-emphasize the importance of solid axle in aftermarket add ons!




vinod_nookala is offline  
Old 10th March 2010, 18:25   #1068
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Rcbt

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Arka, alas some kind words. What about the Solid axle with RCBT then?
Hi Spike,

The Thar Chassis can be easily converted to the existing RCBT, by adding a Chassis extension for the Leaf Spring Front Hanger, thereby giving room for the existing MRCBT/HARCBT. Then Add a Winch Plate on Top for reinforcement.

When that version comes out (Duex Ex/Redux/Dukem Nukem) Launch it ASAP in Europe, it will be DEADLY. Later along with the regular Thar it can be sold in INDIA, as the TOP of the Line version.

In Europe it will be a very good alternative, to the JEEP Wrangler JK & Land Rover Defenders.

The Tech Specs

OKBJ+ HARCBT+FFRA+MLD+Leaf Springs = Bullet Proof.

1) Please look into water proofing the CRDI system & Electrical as much as possible.

2) Add High Diff-Breathers Front and Rear & G-Box & T-Case.

3) Longer Body bed Like Armada Grand/Bolero middle of Wheel Base.

Or Like the Pikup/Bolero Camper SC/DC Cuts down body roll and fatigue tremendously and improves handling.

What makes the M&M JEEPs Deadly in OTRs is their climbing ability (gradients and all) that is because of the Solid Axle Leaf Spring = Minimum Power loss/Transmission Power Loss.

Another uniqueness is the Dana 44 Axle Front and Rear, the OKBJ & the FFRA has the reliability (with smaller engines) which can be compared with the best in the world.

In Short the OKBJ & FFRA are the icing on the cake, true and infallible.

You guys have developed everything, from performance (NEF2.49CRDe) to the existing mechanical system, its time to show the World, what an Indian 4WD is, what a MAHINDRA is.

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline  
Old 10th March 2010, 18:34   #1069
Senior - BHPian
 
vinod_nookala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,737
Thanked: 410 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
.

You guys have developed everything, from performance (NEF2.49CRDe) to the existing mechanical system, its time to show the World, what an Indian 4WD is, what a MAHINDRA is.
True!! Its all about getting the right combination from existing parts bin, in some cases slight development. We all truly believe old school M&M chassis with modern power train can teach a thing or two even to the biggies and most respected lot out there!

Don't loose the opportunity of making a history! In future norms will be even tougher and challenges and constraints will be even higher than what you are facing now. So, its now or never!!

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 10th March 2010 at 18:38.
vinod_nookala is offline  
Old 10th March 2010, 23:36   #1070
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in a Toyota!
Posts: 2,686
Thanked: 592 Times
Default

we all know that real live axle in front and rear are the best choice for a harcore 4WD offroad vehicle when it comes to reliability and functionality.

so what is the reason for MM to go for IFS in the front?

commercial/comfort for the on road drive?

if THAR comes out with IFS as the test vehicles have shown, then its not as hardcore 4WD as we all want it to be!
Parm is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 10:44   #1071
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 913 Times
Default

I've been travelling all over the districts in a 500 km radius around Hyderabad and what kind of application do I see Jeeps in?

Police department
Irrigation department
Forest department
PWD and Highway works department
Mining companies
Oil and gas exploration companies
Health department
Thermal and Hydro Powerplants

All of the above are flooded with Jeeps. Thousands of them.

For all of them what is the ideal replacement?

THAR as is !!! The Thar as developed and shown to us is the perfect replcement for all these Jeeps.

With 4x4 and even MLD and beefier SFRA it will perform all the duties these organisations require a Jeep to do.

How many Thar's can get sold to them? If you take pan India that thousands of Thars.

Now in all my travels across districts how many offroaders (enthusiasts like you and me) have I seen traversing the countryside exploring and doing hardcore offroading? ZERO !!!!

Guys what does that mean? To a company you simply don't exist. The Thar is a viable alternative for all the present Jeep users.

So does IFS make sense? You bet it does. Who needs a heavy cumbersome solid axle that compromises handling? When a Jeep is a business/work tool you need to traverse country roads, trails, offroad sites in comfort and in speed. Thar with IFS allows that.

So as much as I whole heartedly agree with what should go into an extreme offroader the market is practically non existent for M&M to viably take cognisance and do something about it.

What is the weight disadvantage of a FFRA over a SFRA? If its a couple of kilos heck leave the SFRA in and add locks for practical application in monsoon trails (provided ofcourse the axle is beefed up to handle the stresses)

So Thar as is with MLD and SFRA is more practical in view of the people who will actually buy it in thousands. You and I don't even constitute a 100 buyers across India.

If Behram and his team can deliver a viable low cost Thar which can be priced aggressively in 2wd and 4wd and it ends up selling in thousands to all the above applications, just a year or two down the line I am sure he will be allowed a free hand to develop a even more potent version, solid axle with coil suspension, mhawk engine, and all other bells and whistles to cater to us and the world extreme offroader market

Last edited by DKG : 11th March 2010 at 10:55.
DKG is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 11:09   #1072
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 913 Times
Default

I do have one request to make to M&M. Please reroute the muffler to a higher level and please offer the car in atleast two of the following colours

1. Colour of the sand in the Thar desert
2. Green colour that blends into forests found in India

In terms of accessories

1. GPS (M&M can tie up with Garmin and offer a choice in GPS)
2. Hard top
3. Air conditioning
4. Winches
5. Tow hook
6. Trailer with brakes
7. Survival pack (twin burner gas operated stove, tent, shovel, water/petrol jerry cans)
8. Roll cage tested to handle a complete roll over

Last edited by DKG : 11th March 2010 at 11:15.
DKG is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 11:42   #1073
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I've been travelling all over the districts in a 500 km radius around Hyderabad and what kind of application do I see Jeeps in?

Police department
Irrigation department
Forest department
PWD and Highway works department
Mining companies
Oil and gas exploration companies
Health department
Thermal and Hydro Powerplants

All of the above are flooded with Jeeps. Thousands of them.

For all of them what is the ideal replacement?

THAR as is !!! The Thar as developed and shown to us is the perfect replcement for all these Jeeps.

With 4x4 and even MLD and beefier SFRA it will perform all the duties these organisations require a Jeep to do.

How many Thar's can get sold to them? If you take pan India that thousands of Thars.

Now in all my travels across districts how many offroaders (enthusiasts like you and me) have I seen traversing the countryside exploring and doing hardcore offroading? ZERO !!!!

Guys what does that mean? To a company you simply don't exist. The Thar is a viable alternative for all the present Jeep users.
Hi DKG,

What you have said is very true and there is huge market for the Thar, but not as the current vehicle (specs).

The Govt. Dept. may want a new vehicle but will not go in for a CRDe in such harsh applications, they will need a simpler engine setup.

2WD is what mostly the Govt. Dept. will want, but what about ZSI/ASI/GSI/ONGC/BRO/GREF/MOHFW?

What will they prefer over the Old CJ500D/MM540s/Major and now Bolero

a faster and more comfortable vehicle
i) Simpler Engine - MDI3200TC/M2DI
ii) Depending on application IFS 4WD or Solid Axle 4WD
iii) Budgetary Constraints.

The vehicle has to be field serviceable.
1) IFS will not allow that
2) CRDe engine will not allow that
3) SFRA - god forbid.

The IFS 4WD Thar with NEF2.49TCI can be the Luxury Deluxe version, but it will not be the "Dept. Vehicle"

If the "THAR" is the flagship of a range of vehicle then it is fine, but as the only version (2WD/4WD) aside, it becomes restrictive.

The THAR as we have seen it is aimed at the Urban Population, a Lifestyle vehicle aimed at the 25-35yr (Unmarried/just Married) or a second vehicle, who will buy if for the LOOKS. (NGCSMM550XD)

These are the guys with internet and a Auto-Mag understanding of 4WD, they are the ones who will.

a) Pete's Box it
b) ICE
c) Drag on the Road as it is IFS with 100 horses.
d) Come to OTRs - If, When & What is any body's guess.

The FFRA is must on all M&M JEEP Vehicles, Like I said it is the Designers and Companies attitude, towards safety and their customer, another way of saying...With You Hamesha.

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 11:49   #1074
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 217
Thanked: 27 Times
Default

@DKG,

I don't think that Thar will attract the departments you mentioned otherwise they must be flooded with M&M Classic. These department wants a jeep which can carry 5-6 babus/policemen and should be capable of carrying even 10-12 persons when Sahaab (Officer) wants.

Since Thar is already in assembly line, there is no point in discussing the axles and all. Rather we should asked them to release it ASAP becuse lot of guys are loosing their patience & switching over to some other vehicle.
Now since we know what the Thar package is all about, we should continue our discussion for possible modification which does'nt void the warranty. M&M should allow certain modifications @cost to make it as per the taste of individual.
Crazy4Power is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:05   #1075
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Power View Post
Since Thar is already in assembly line, there is no point in discussing the axles and all. Rather we should asked them to release it ASAP becuse lot of guys are loosing their patience & switching over to some other vehicle.
Now since we know what the Thar package is all about, we should continue our discussion for possible modification which does'nt void the warranty. M&M should allow certain modifications @cost to make it as per the taste of individual.
Hi Rahul (IIRC),

1) What other vehicles are they switching to? Are you sure the Thar was intended for "that" market.

2) Pray please tell us what the Thar package is all about.

3) Please list out the modifications you would like M&M to do after you pay close to 7Lakhs for this vehicle, Don't you think its modified enough?

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:06   #1076
Distinguished - BHPian
 
JayD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin! At last
Posts: 3,194
Thanked: 1,989 Times
Default

I completely agree with DKG sir here. The hardcore offroading community is currently too small in india for a company to make a model specifically targetted for them. At the end of the day, the volumes matter, and for that, comfort will be important. The thar is targetted at the type of person who would use it on the road, and also, some off road fun, and not just hard core axle breaking offroading.

Such people (me included) have stayed away from jeeps due to reasons like reliability, noise and comfort. IFS and the NEF engine would be a welcome addition, and would put the Thar on the radar for any vehicle buyer/

When the MM5XX was available in the maret, nobody except the hardcore jeepers or people who wanted to carry loads in it even had a look at it


The thar i think is supposed to be a jack of all trades, and master of none. It will be a relatively stylish suv, which is comfortable enough for daily use( even as an only car/suv) and yet, with decent off roading capabilities.

The hardcore offroaders, no matter what is being offered to them, will still go for 550XD rebuilds, which citing cost and cutomization reasons. (As can bee seen from the past few pages of this thread)

Arka sir, with all due respect, can we put an end to all this axle discussion? Its been stated that the thar is already on the production, and i fail to see the point of this continuous argument.

Also, we should appreciate that a company has taken the initiative of actually communicating with the customers on such a forum. lets not scare them away shall we?

Last edited by JayD : 11th March 2010 at 12:10.
JayD is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:14   #1077
BHPian
 
star_aqua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: BLR
Posts: 612
Thanked: 88 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I've been travelling all over the districts in a 500 km radius around Hyderabad and what kind of application do I see Jeeps in?

Police department
Irrigation department
Forest department
PWD and Highway works department
Mining companies
Oil and gas exploration companies
Health department
Thermal and Hydro Powerplants
==================
So Thar as is with MLD and SFRA is more practical in view of the people who will actually buy it in thousands. You and I don't even constitute a 100 buyers across India.
Boleros are already doing the duty and where there are still CJs and MM540s, the next replacement is bolero. The forest dept in karnataka has adapted to bolero 4wd in some ranges. How can a govt think of purchasing BSIV vehicle for the rural duties? when there is bolero which is more simpler and easy on maintaining it.

Last edited by Jaggu : 11th March 2010 at 12:27. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large post for short replies, readability issue for mobile users. Thanks
star_aqua is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:31   #1078
Distinguished - BHPian
 
JayD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cochin! At last
Posts: 3,194
Thanked: 1,989 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Boleros are already doing the duty and where there are still CJs and MM540s, the next replacement is bolero. The forest dept in karnataka has adapted to bolero 4wd in some ranges. How can a govt think of purchasing BSIV vehicle for the rural duties? when there is bolero which is more simpler and easy on maintaining it.
At the time when the govt bought these CJ'S and 540's the commander and armada were available too. Why did the govt choose the CJ'S and 540's over them? Similarly, the 2wd Thar, if priced well, can be a viable alternative for them. This would give the company the necessary volumes too. Then hopefully they can bring out higher versions with specific options which could satisfy the offroad community.
JayD is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:48   #1079
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Jack-Off-All-Trades

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Arka sir, with all due respect, can we put an end to all this axle discussion? Its been stated that the thar is already on the production, and i fail to see the point of this continuous argument.

Also, we should appreciate that a company has taken the initiative of actually communicating with the customers on such a forum. lets not scare them away shall we?
JayD Saar,

With all due respect, I will keep asking the questions about the axles, till I get a satisfactory answer.

Given your experience with M&M JEEPs, what makes you think the Thar is reliable with the SFRA & MLD combo or it will serve as a jack-off-all-trades.

i) Does it have the hardcore OTR capability of the MM540?
ii) Does it have the load carrying capacity of the MM540?
iii) Does it have the ruggedness of the MM540?

Please would you go to the extent of defining fun off-roading and hardcore axle breaking off-roading.

What is scaring them away from the forum? People asking questions about their product, Isn't that the intention behind this exercise.

Communication is

Sender sends a Message through a Channel; which is distorted by Noise, to a Receiver, who receives the Message, and sends a Feedback.

It is a LOOP, ending with Feedback; which starts another Loop.

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline  
Old 11th March 2010, 12:52   #1080
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 913 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
I will keep asking the questions about the axles, till I get a satisfactory answer.
Moves are afoot to put a smile on your face

Is FFRA with MLD music to your ears??

Quote:
Sender sends a Message through a Channel; which is distorted by Noise, to a Receiver, who receives the Message, and sends a Feedback
BTW we have some noise filters working overtime

Last edited by DKG : 11th March 2010 at 13:08.
DKG is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why I won't buy a Thar... booked Thar! desertfox 4x4 Vehicles 740 2nd April 2015 22:28
Taking the Thar to the 'Thar'. 2000 kms, 3 childhood friends & an epic roadtrip Vroom barabar! Travelogues 30 25th March 2013 18:42
Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2! GTO 4x4 Vehicles 668 5th January 2011 17:04


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:32.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks