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Old 12th March 2010, 12:06   #1126
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Default Torque at the wheels

(Crawl Ratio X Peak Torque)/ 4 (Four Wheels)

MM540DP (5.38:1) KMT90 & 12Kgm

3.986 X 2.46 X 5.38 = 52.7:1

(52.7 X 12) divided by 4 = 158 Kgm per wheel.

MM550XD (4.88:1) KMT90 & 15.3Kgm

3.986 X 2.46 X 4.88 = 47.8:1

(47.8 X 15.3) divided by 4 = 183 Kgm per wheel.

Mahindra Major (3.73:1) NGT520 & 18Kgm

4.12 X 2.46 X 3.73 = 37.8:1

(37.8 X 18) = 170 Kgm per wheel.

M&M THAR (4.3:1) NGT530 & 27Kgm

3.78 X 2.48 X 4.3 = 40.3

(40.3 X 27) divided by 4 = 272 Kgm per wheel.



As expected, the Thar, has more Torque at the Wheel, because the engine generates twice as much torque as its predecessors.

But considering the weight of each vehicle, the torque per kg. of vehicle weight.

MM540DP is 1355kgs / 632Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.14:1
MM550XD is 1375Kgs / 732Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.8:1
Major is 1375Kgs / 680Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.02:1
Thar is 1550Kgs / 1088Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.42:1
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Old 12th March 2010, 12:13   #1127
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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
But that 117nm starts at 1200~1500 RPM whereas the 247 NM is somewhere closer to 2200 RPM. So the engine may actually be producing about 120~130 NM at 1200 RPM (Can be verified if we get the whole torque curve of the NEF CRDe). There is no denying the fact that the NEF CRDe is much newer technology but at certain revvs, the advantage may be just miniscule. The above statements are based on my own driving experience of the NEF CRDe and TDI engine.
How could you able to measure it? The NEF engines have much higher torque and bhp compared to IDI engines. and THAR is much better in terms of overall torque and bhp. even if you talk about turbo lag, there is no much lag in THAR as it has two stage turbo. Why do you think ARKA is asking for FFRA? what is the reason for axle breaking? its the enormous torque it can produce which can cause axle breakup when MLD is in action.
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Old 12th March 2010, 12:15   #1128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
But considering the weight of each vehicle, the torque per kg. of vehicle weight.

MM540DP is 1355kgs / 632Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.14:1
MM550XD is 1375Kgs / 732Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.8:1
Major is 1375Kgs / 680Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.02:1
Thar is 1550Kgs / 1088Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.42:1
But you have calculated weight per kgm of torque here.
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Old 12th March 2010, 12:15   #1129
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Dear all - thank you for your wonderful acknowledgements. You will appreciate that nothing can be achieved without team work. So, I delightfully present to you, the core members of my Thar team, one of the best team of engineers working in M&M's R&D Center, Nasik..

APS Rao (Thar project leader) - our team's quietly working, very unassuming gentleman. Things happen when he is around!
Pratheesh Raveendran - our team's analyst, whom you all know as "Spike". He thinks and then always hits exactly where it matters. I better listen to him!
Indranil Paul - our team's Babu Moshai. He fires me sometimes and it is better that I stay fired, as the work gets done!
Padmesh Sewda - our team's legendary follow-up specialist. Also comes out with some wild ideas which work. Oh my God!
Rochak Bali - our team's DAC (drive away chassis) specialist, now diversifying. When he says "ho jaayega", I don't have to worry!
Vijay Waghmare - our team's "body sheet metal" specialist, now diversifying. Body production guys want "Vijay" on the shop floor whenever I do something new on the body!
Amol Wagh - our team's "trim" specialist. Also into ELV (end of life vehicles) activities!
Kapil Dubey - our team's ace designer. I drive him absolutely crazy on the layouts as my mind works like a bullet train and I always want everything yesterday, but he never complains. Thank him, especially for the chassis!
Nilesh Shivale - our team's designer who I love to hassle very regularly. Thank him for sorting out the instrument panel challenges!
Ashish Bhagwat - our team's go-getter. He does not talk much, quietly goes about his work and delivers the desired result every time!

Take a bow, guys, you deserve it! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

MAHINDRA THAR - "GO ANYWHERE".

MAHINDRA & MAHINDRA LTD - "A GREAT PLACE TO WORK".
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Old 12th March 2010, 12:17   #1130
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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Not on any given gear but specifically at 4L. I'm trying to dig out the data to prove my point but I may be wrong too.
The torque curve of a TDI / IDI engine is much more flatter and more widespread over the rev range vis-a-vis a CRDe engine which has a slightly peaky torque curve, slightly high up the rev range.
@Milecruncher AFAIK, it is more easy to control (through single pilot,double pilot,early pilot,late pilot etc) the torque curve of a CRDe when compared to other engines, it would be nice if you could share Torque Vs RPM graphs of a CRDe and a TDI/IDI engine, also please mention the fly up RPM in both the cases.

Spike
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Old 12th March 2010, 13:20   #1131
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Default Axle & Diff-Lock

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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Why do you think ARKA is asking for FFRA? what is the reason for axle breaking? its the enormous torque it can produce which can cause axle breakup when MLD is in action.
Hi Guys,

I have been driving with the Auto-Locker fitted on my Rear-Axle since July 2009. I have covered 14000kms with this setup.

1) The Auto-Locker opens and allows the outer wheel to free-wheel in a turn, while turning (U-Turns) the vehicle sometimes stalls due the resistance offered by the Locked Differential.

2) I have used the 2 Piece FFRA with LSD before, upgrading to the existing setup. While using the LSD, I have cut the outer spline of the axles, twice, in 2 Years. Suresh Stephen has faced a similar issue with 2 piece FFRA on his CJ340, running 4.27:1 Diff Ratio.

3) When we go on OTRs, with grippy tyres; bite into the surface (preventing the wheel from rotating), the diff is powered by the engine to force the axle, hence the wheel to rotate, if the Axle is not strong enough it twist, strips the splines or worse breaks.

4) Another problem is OTRs the wheels tend to bounce/catch air over uneven ground, under acceleration, then
i) the weight is on the other wheel/axle/FFRA Spindle
ii) when the wheels again hit the ground, there is a deceleration of the moving parts, due to the resistance of the surface, at the hub and wheels and again acceleration inside the differential and axle inner spline.

What absorbs these shock loads, it is the axle.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 12th March 2010, 13:23   #1132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Milecruncher AFAIK, it is more easy to control (through single pilot,double pilot,early pilot,late pilot etc) the torque curve of a CRDe when compared to other engines, it would be nice if you could share Torque Vs RPM graphs of a CRDe and a TDI/IDI engine, also please mention the fly up RPM in both the cases.

Spike
How could I share the these diagrams when you are the guys who design it. But you can always share the diagrams. All my observations are from the POV of a driver having driven these engines as lot of times what there is a big difference between theory and practical . Anyways as already stated earlier, I may be wrong as well.

@star_aqua: I can vouch for the characteristics about the NEF CRDe because my Bolero CRDe runs the same engine producing 97HP and 255Nm between 1800-2200 RPM. And as regards to the turbo, unless M&M done something different, the engine comes with a single stage( whatever it means) fixed geometry turbo and yes you can feel (its subtle but its there) the turbo kicking in around the 1500 RPM mark
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Old 12th March 2010, 13:31   #1133
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Dear Behram Sir and Spike (Pratheesh),
Congratulations. Feels great to see the real Thar.
It makes me feel even more happy to see this vehicle becoming reality, behind the creation of which are 2 Team-BHPians, 2 people whom i've met.
Really, i am very happy.
Now, since the first step of making Thar into reality is close to completion, a few requests.
Instead of selling just one variant and expecting it to work (one size fits all, rarely works), why not think of providing variants.
Most SUVs offer variants and would it not be possible to do something similar with Thar?

The current version with maybe a little bling, sell it as Mahindra Thar - Urban. Better cruise ability, better comfort, works for those who mostly drive within city limits and rarely go off-roading.

The next version, Thar with solid axles over coil springs, FFRAs, MLDs, winch ready bumper, roll-cage et.al. sell it as Mahindra Thar - Sport. For the off-road crowd.

Another version, Thar with solid axles over leaf springs, FFRAs, and nothing else. You might even do away with AC, PS and other comforts, might give the BS-IV MDI engine or the NEF engine, sell it as Mahindra Thar - Economy. For the rural crowd, govt, and for those of us who need a solid platform on which they would like to build their vehicle.

This would cater to the needs of most people. Just my thoughts.
Maybe am wrong somewhere. If yes, please correct me.
If you think this is nonsense, please ignore this post.

A big applause to you both once again, Behram Sir and Spike and to your team for making Thar reality. I sincerely hope and will pray that Thar becomes a big success.

Big Cheers,
Deepak

Last edited by starter : 12th March 2010 at 13:33.
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Old 12th March 2010, 13:57   #1134
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Default Congratulations Thar Team!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - As database of my 1000th post on Team BHP, I take this opportunity to finally present to you, photographs of my dream vehicle, the Mahindra Thar. We have put our auto-passion, our heart and our soul into this project. Please help us to ensure that the vehicle succeeds in the marketplace. We promise you that we shall try and incorporate whatever is possible out of what you, as our most esteemed customers, want.

Thank you TeamBHP moderators & support staff for this wonderfully rewarding journey.

Please accept my best personal regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Behram sir,

Congratulations on becoming a senior Bhpian first! Regarding Thar i know it has been a long and tough journey and the final product looks awesome specially the white one!!

We are all are M&M fans and would want Thar to be out at any cost and hence this kind of support!! You have crossed a big mile and delivered a product within 9 months to 1 year time which is very very quick and i know many people must be jealous of you. Truly commendable!

My congratulations and appreciation to the complete Thar team for the effort that has gone into the vehicle.

Scorpio was not perfect when launched and later saw many improvements so did Bolero and Xylo. Thar is not an exception! We need FFRA with MLD, front solid live axle and power assisted RCBT steering !! Solid axle is closer to my heart and you know why and i am sure you are convinced about it.

In my future posts i will put across some interesting case studies regarding product positioning and why solid axle makes more sense for Thar rather than IFS

@spike- You were right white Thar looks kick ***! I have decided the color of my future jeep

p.s- The real jeep is yet to arrive!
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Old 12th March 2010, 14:28   #1135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Guys,



What absorbs these shock loads, it is the axle.

Regards,

Arka
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - thank you for your wonderful acknowledgements. You will appreciate that nothing can be achieved without team work. So, I delightfully present to you, the core members of my Thar team, one of the best team of engineers working in M&M's R&D Center, Nasik..

Vijay Waghmare - our team's "body sheet metal" specialist, now diversifying. Body production guys want "Vijay" on the shop floor whenever I do something new on the body!
Amol Wagh - our team's "trim" specialist. Also into ELV (end of life vehicles) activities!
Nilesh Shivale - our team's designer who I love to hassle very regularly. Thank him for sorting out the instrument panel challenges!


Take a bow, guys, you deserve it! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

MAHINDRA THAR - "GO ANYWHERE".

MAHINDRA & MAHINDRA LTD - "A GREAT PLACE TO WORK".
@ ARKA : I dont think anyones worried about their axles breaking. They'd rather have a show jeep with all the bells and whistles that they can cart the whole family around in and not get overtaken by autos on the highway. Nothing wrong in that. I guess.

Mr Dhabhar,

I have been a silent watcher to the ever unfolding "thar' thread, and I was surprised to see you have mentioned a sheet metal specialist involved in the 'development' of the thar. I assume he didnt have much work to do since M&M have used the same old 540 body with the rickety doors et all.
Please dont take any offence.
And coming from a place where M&M jeeps form a integral part of every household, for want of a better vehicle, I have had first hand experience of the pathetic quality of their jeeps. There, OTRs are not a excursion or outing but an inevitability given the geography of the place. The sub-standard quality of M&M jeeps is something we live with and often confuse with being tough. But a gypsy will run rings around them, the only downside being high cost of running a petrol gypsy. I do not agree with your portrayal of M&M being a firm that listens to the customer, though i think you have tried your best to do so. But corporate culture does not change overnight.
I appreciate whatever efforts you may have put into the thar, but my personal view is that i wont be loosing sleep over the final product. Neither would a lot of people back home. BTW Im from a place called Coorg.

All the best with the vehicle.

Cheers.
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Old 12th March 2010, 18:45   #1136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - thank you for your wonderful acknowledgements. You will appreciate that nothing can be achieved without team work. So, I delightfully present to you, the core members of my Thar team, one of the best team of engineers working in M&M's R&D Center, Nasik..

APS Rao (Thar project leader) - our team's quietly working, very unassuming gentleman. Things happen when he is around!
Pratheesh Raveendran - our team's analyst, whom you all know as "Spike". He thinks and then always hits exactly where it matters. I better listen to him!
Indranil Paul - our team's Babu Moshai. He fires me sometimes and it is better that I stay fired, as the work gets done!
Padmesh Sewda - our team's legendary follow-up specialist. Also comes out with some wild ideas which work. Oh my God!
Rochak Bali - our team's DAC (drive away chassis) specialist, now diversifying. When he says "ho jaayega", I don't have to worry!
Vijay Waghmare - our team's "body sheet metal" specialist, now diversifying. Body production guys want "Vijay" on the shop floor whenever I do something new on the body!
Amol Wagh - our team's "trim" specialist. Also into ELV (end of life vehicles) activities!
Kapil Dubey - our team's ace designer. I drive him absolutely crazy on the layouts as my mind works like a bullet train and I always want everything yesterday, but he never complains. Thank him, especially for the chassis!
Nilesh Shivale - our team's designer who I love to hassle very regularly. Thank him for sorting out the instrument panel challenges!
Ashish Bhagwat - our team's go-getter. He does not talk much, quietly goes about his work and delivers the desired result every time!

Take a bow, guys, you deserve it! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

MAHINDRA THAR - "GO ANYWHERE".

MAHINDRA & MAHINDRA LTD - "A GREAT PLACE TO WORK".
Dear Behram Sir, a big Congratulations to a you & all the team mates involved in Thar Project. (Why they are not yet T-BHPians)

My personnel thank to you & Pratheesh for developing the Thar & answering my/our questions no matter if stupid.

Thanks for sharing the photos (Waited till 1000th post).

From the pics it looks like the Roll Cage will be standard. Nice.

Please keep the cost low, sell it like Bolero.. make it No:1..

Regards,
Ravi

Last edited by offroad_maniac : 12th March 2010 at 18:46.
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Old 12th March 2010, 20:04   #1137
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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
My personnel thank to you & Pratheesh for developing the Thar & answering my/our questions no matter if stupid.
From the pics it looks like the Roll Cage will be standard. Nice.
Please keep the cost low, sell it like Bolero.. make it No:1..
Ravi, thanks for your wishes, let me mention here that I am only a part of the big picture, there are so many guys behind it, the brain behind this project is one and only BD Sir.. The one in pic is an Export vehicle with 1+1 seating configuration, whereas Indian version is different.

Spike
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Old 12th March 2010, 20:06   #1138
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
The one in pic is an Export vehicle with 1+1 seating configuration, whereas Indian version is different.

Spike
Some pics of the Indian version
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Old 13th March 2010, 01:03   #1139
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Congratulations to the THAR Team and much respect for the hardwork put in by the team.

i see all talk is about how the THAR will come equiped for the local market!

i want to ask about the price of the THAR:

how much it would have cost MM to build each THAR since most of the parts have been there with MM including the Engine?

540 body has been there for ages!
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:16   #1140
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Congratulations to the TEAM.
Now price is what which decides its success in the market. This vehicle is most suitable for POLICE and PATROLs in big cities.
For a civilian it is again not a practical vehicle, if there is no option of hard top being spent 6lakh. This could be considered as an option, if many offroaders here looking for buying a new car which should be rugged compared to the hatchbacks/sedans available in market. But again bolero will come into the picture here because of the doors and forward facing seats. This is the main reason why boleros are sold more as people look for a tuffer vehicle with sedan comfort.
But i don't think bolero storm 4wd would be available in the market, as this will affect the sales of THAR.

It is showcased here on T-BHP as if the THAR was designed, manufactured and presented to us after seeing the passion within us. but M&M is more interested in showing it to others first who can pay in euros or dollars. Still we haven't seen the indian version of THAR.
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