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Old 13th March 2010, 08:15   #1141
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will the production version come out with a soft top or a hard top?
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Old 13th March 2010, 09:47   #1142
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - thank you for your wonderful acknowledgements. You will appreciate that nothing can be achieved without team work. So, I delightfully present to you, the core members of my Thar team, one of the best team of engineers working in M&M's R&D Center, Nasik..

APS Rao (Thar project leader) - our team's quietly working, very unassuming gentleman. Things happen when he is around!
Pratheesh Raveendran - our team's analyst, whom you all know as "Spike". He thinks and then always hits exactly where it matters. I better listen to him!
Indranil Paul - our team's Babu Moshai. He fires me sometimes and it is better that I stay fired, as the work gets done!
Padmesh Sewda - our team's legendary follow-up specialist. Also comes out with some wild ideas which work. Oh my God!
Rochak Bali - our team's DAC (drive away chassis) specialist, now diversifying. When he says "ho jaayega", I don't have to worry!
Vijay Waghmare - our team's "body sheet metal" specialist, now diversifying. Body production guys want "Vijay" on the shop floor whenever I do something new on the body!
Amol Wagh - our team's "trim" specialist. Also into ELV (end of life vehicles) activities!
Kapil Dubey - our team's ace designer. I drive him absolutely crazy on the layouts as my mind works like a bullet train and I always want everything yesterday, but he never complains. Thank him, especially for the chassis!
Nilesh Shivale - our team's designer who I love to hassle very regularly. Thank him for sorting out the instrument panel challenges!
Ashish Bhagwat - our team's go-getter. He does not talk much, quietly goes about his work and delivers the desired result every time!

Take a bow, guys, you deserve it! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

MAHINDRA THAR - "GO ANYWHERE".

MAHINDRA & MAHINDRA LTD - "A GREAT PLACE TO WORK".
hello db sir
looks like you have a dream team.
thanks for bringing legend back on assembly line.

post some pictures of Indian version of Thar with interior ones.
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Old 13th March 2010, 13:20   #1143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
@Vinod, this is the White one i was talking about, hope you liked it, attaching one more pic.

Spike
Hey Spike, Somehow the white does not look as impressive as my friend Sanjay David's off white 540. You have seen it at Avalakonda!

The front bonnet catches ought to go in such a vehicle and we need more modern switchgear and wipers - not the ancient ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Pass these pictures of Jeeps in Hyderabad to your design/accessories department and have them create a full lineup of accessories that will make the Thar looks drop dead gorgeous like these CJ5's from Hyderabad dressed up as Wranglers

We seriously need to dispel with the "nightsuit" look of the utterly drab 540's.

Now we must focus on increasing the desirability quotient. The Thar must necessarily look a fun, trendy vehicle.
Deepak, Though I agree with you on this POV, I doubt M&M would do anything about it

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
To help achieve this objective M&M must offer

1. Range of trendy metallic finishes apart from solid colours

2. Choice of atleast three alloy wheel options

3. Roll cage

4. Jerry cans, winches, spot lamps, GPS, Stereo, aircon

5. Suggest you dump those dated rectangular side lamps for something smarter

6. Clear glass headlamps

7. Removeable hardtop

8. Stanley leather(imitation) seat cover set

BTW if none of the above is possible may I request you please study a army spec 550 and simply replicate all those small elements that make the 550 look so gorgeous. Even that will do !!
Definitely not happening Sir!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
PS - Please add the Insect Screen/Chaff Guard, makes the vehicle look much better.
Else the FMIC is the first to get choked

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
As expected, the Thar, has more Torque at the Wheel, because the engine generates twice as much torque as its predecessors.

But considering the weight of each vehicle, the torque per kg. of vehicle weight.

MM540DP is 1355kgs / 632Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.14:1
MM550XD is 1375Kgs / 732Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.8:1
Major is 1375Kgs / 680Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 2.02:1
Thar is 1550Kgs / 1088Kgm (for 4 Wheels) = 1.42:1
You are smart - arent you? Wait until the THAR does rings around your multi colored MMx5x ZZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
So, I delightfully present to you, the core members of my Thar team, one of the best team of engineers working in M&M's R&D Center, Nasik..
Sir, we are delighted to meet them too. Welcome to TBHP friends and please take our inputs seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
it would be nice if you could share Torque Vs RPM graphs of a CRDe and a TDI/IDI engine, also please mention the fly up RPM in both the cases.
Spike, My man - You are the one to put up the torque curves of both the engines if you dare to - We are the analysts / drivers / experts / customers / judges of your products and we tell you our opinions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by starter View Post
The next version, Thar with solid axles over coil springs, FFRAs, MLDs, winch ready bumper, roll-cage et.al. sell it as Mahindra Thar - Sport. For the off-road crowd.
It aint happening buddy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by howler View Post
I do not agree with your portrayal of M&M being a firm that listens to the customer, though i think you have tried your best to do so. But corporate culture does not change overnight.
M&M need to START by EDUCATING THEIR DEALERS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
how much it would have cost MM to build each THAR since most of the parts have been there with MM including the Engine?
Very interesting question Spike - Can you share TAKt times ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Now price is what which decides its success in the market. ...

But i don't think bolero storm 4wd would be available in the market, as this will affect the sales of THAR.
Sad that a Storm 4wd is not being offered.

As many have mentioned, the key points are:

1. Price On Road
2. Features available on the vehicle
3. Performance ON/OFF Road.


It is sad to see the THAR with Bridgestone Dueller HT tyres, a bonnet catch as well as wiper that are "VINTAGE". If all these are to be sold to a customer, then The THAR Should NOT be priced over 4 Lakhs.

Give us real modern features - Atleast make the THAR highway worthy and fairly offroad worthy and you could charge a little more than 4. Pricing it as 6 or 7 is a pure non starter.

Sorry to be so negative about it - We do it because we care

Last edited by headers : 13th March 2010 at 13:25.
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Old 13th March 2010, 14:01   #1144
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With the current looks of Thar, its hard to sell at 5L+ range. It doesn't even look like a new vehicle at all.

The Thar concept shown on the expo was a delight atleast in looks department. I was also thinking of buying Thar after i sold my 1999 Gypsy King but when i saw Behram Sir's offroading pic of actual Thar, I knew it was not worth waiting and finally went for a new Gypsy.

Last edited by Amar82 : 13th March 2010 at 14:02.
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Old 13th March 2010, 14:36   #1145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Hey Spike, Somehow the white does not look as impressive as my friend Sanjay David's off white 540. You have seen it at Avalakonda!
Sorry to be so negative about it - We do it because we care
Headers, thank you for your comments, yeah i saw that off white Jeep (not mentioning its heroics), my dear friend, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

Spike
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Old 13th March 2010, 21:14   #1146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
my dear friend, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

Spike
You bet

BTW, how many THARs have been booked?
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Old 13th March 2010, 22:52   #1147
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Congrats Behram on your Thousandth post & to your team in putting your thoughts togather!

Its great to see your dream metamorphise into a reality. Must say that the Jeep has come out really well.

Just hoping that your marketing team positions it in the right segment & price range.
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Old 14th March 2010, 14:23   #1148
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could anyone please identify the differences in the 'old' 540 body/shape/look/appearance and the 'new' THAR body/shape/look/appearance?

i would like to know if there is a change in the composition of the sheet metal used in the body of the 'new' THAR compared to what was used in the 'old' 540 which used to rust like anything?

OR

old dies have been used on the body of the 'new' THAR?

is there going to better welding used in the 'new' THAR compared to the 'old' 540?

has the body of the 'new' THAR been made strong to take on the highway cruising speeds, NEF engine etc? if YES, then in what way?

now since we know the 'team THAR', could we have answers to my Qs above?

Last edited by Parm : 14th March 2010 at 14:24.
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Old 15th March 2010, 11:21   #1149
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Default South African Thar

Hello DB Sir & Spike,

Can you please clarify if the South African Spec THAR is Road Legal or "Farm Only" Vehicle.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 15th March 2010, 12:10   #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post

APS Rao (Thar project leader), Pratheesh Raveendran, Indranil Paul, Padmesh Sewda, Rochak Bali, Vijay Waghmare, Amol Wagh, Kapil Dubey, Nilesh Shivale, Ashish Bhagwat

Behram Dhabhar
Please share my best wishes and congratulations to your team! For what you have achieved is really great offroad ready or not! Will definitely be watching the launch and if things work out, who knows. Maybe!
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Old 15th March 2010, 12:46   #1151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
could anyone please identify the differences in the 'old' 540 body/shape/look/appearance and the 'new' THAR body/shape/look/appearance?

i would like to know if there is a change in the composition of the sheet metal used in the body of the 'new' THAR compared to what was used in the 'old' 540 which used to rust like anything?

OR

old dies have been used on the body of the 'new' THAR?

is there going to better welding used in the 'new' THAR compared to the 'old' 540?

has the body of the 'new' THAR been made strong to take on the highway cruising speeds, NEF engine etc? if YES, then in what way?

now since we know the 'team THAR', could we have answers to my Qs above?
I would love an answer to these questions too.
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Old 15th March 2010, 15:25   #1152
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Default Ideal Indian Off-Roader

Hi DB Sir,

A Poll on Team-Bhp, years ago.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ff-roader.html (Ideal Indian Off-Roader)

Please comment on the results of the Poll, 4 months after this Poll, you posted the MM540 wish list thread.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 16th March 2010, 17:39   #1153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Congratulations to the TEAM.
Now price is what which decides its success in the market. This vehicle is most suitable for POLICE and PATROLs in big cities.
For a civilian it is again not a practical vehicle, if there is no option of hard top being spent 6lakh. This could be considered as an option, if many offroaders here looking for buying a new car which should be rugged compared to the hatchbacks/sedans available in market. But again bolero will come into the picture here because of the doors and forward facing seats. This is the main reason why boleros are sold more as people look for a tuffer vehicle with sedan comfort.
Now that we have seen what Thar is going to be, pricing becomes super important. The indications are that it may be priced between 6.5 to 7 lakhs. Some find it reasonably priced and some people like 'Headers' clearly find it over priced.

We all know 6 lakhs segment is growing strong and hatches in this segment with features are taking over sedans as well. Now if we look at Thar's mass market possibilities i too feel it will clearly be over priced at about 7 lakhs given the market situation.

Take this as a brain storming exercise and beware of competition. Yes you read it right- Competition!! But who the competitor to Thar? The up coming segment of MINI SUV may pose threat to THAR at price point. Take the example of Rio. It has every thing what THAR has to offer except for looks of a Jeep, CRDi engine and 4wd. Now imagine if Rio kind of vehicle is offered with CRdi engine and 4wd, then i see the game tilting towards this kind of Mini SUV.


The Hypothetical 4wd CRdi Rio will have the following advantages over thar-
  • Dust free lockable cabin
  • A/c
  • Solid axle coil sprung rear suspension
  • Family appealing looks
  • easy entry & exit
  • power windows
  • central locking
  • Defogger
What premier doesn't have now is R&D capability of Mahindra, a good CRdi engine and 4wd. Plus the service backup isnt anywhere close to M&M. But imagine if all the above shortcoming s are addressed tell me why any body shouldn't consider a Rio over Thar?

Suzuki jimny Diesel 4wd will have the advantages of a Mini SUV and even if priced at 8 lakhs which one would anybody buy? Ok, even if it is Petrol which one would buy when you have solid axle coil spring suspension plus every other creature comfort?

The real Threat to THAR is from MINI SUV segment that is fast catching up. Rio has over 3000 booking now! I am sure even M&M is working on a mini SUV and so are many other companies including ford. Thar would have had a clear advantage in terms of off road ability. But that advantage isn't there any more. If Thar is pitted against the likes of suzuki Jimny its any body's guess which one would be better!

So crux of the story is Price it aggressively so that competition doesn't catch you by surprise! Only a lucrative pricing can give numbers to Thar and that is what we want!


p.s- Why not a 3 door version of Thar with lockable cabin in future?

Some pics of future competition in terms of segment not in terms of vehicles literally!
Attached Thumbnails
Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-dsc00001.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-dsc00002.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-thar204.jpg  

Mahindra Thar revealed at Autoexpo 2010-suzukijimny1_header1280x640.jpg  

Attached Images
    

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 16th March 2010 at 17:41.
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Old 16th March 2010, 18:26   #1154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
The indications are that it may be priced between 6.5 to 7 lakhs. Some find it reasonably priced and some people like 'Headers' clearly find it over priced.

Super post, VN: Now the reasons why I find the THAR overpriced are:

1. Quality of Switchgear user is atleast 2 decades old.

2. Quality of HL, Wipers etc - same as above

3. Old MM540 body which is not lockable - I meant the ST

4. Sad..infact very sad HT tyres for a 4wd performing vehicle - Its like an athlete without proper shoes.
5. Rear side facing seats -

6. NO AC PW, CL etc. Which means you cant leave any valuables in this vehicle.

7. A R&P steering that has a HUGE 4 turns lock to lock! [ A modern car has 2 to 2.5 turns and a F1 car has ONE turn!!]

8. No ABS on such a vehicle especially if priced above 6L

Now, my doubt is how many prospective THAR owners are going to go in for Mahindra - Customisation after buying the vehicle? Maybe 100 per annum!

What numbers will the THAR sell in its current sad form. Even NDMS tyres will make it have a rugged look.

This is a classic case study of a good design gone bad!!

One CAN pay 7+ for the THAR IFF:

1. It has solid axle coil springs
2. Modern Lockable cabin with AC, Heater, PW, PS, ABS, TC etc.
3. NVH is under 50 dB inside at 80 kph
4. GOOD AT tyres
5. Front mounted winch as a std fitment
6. Good Comfortable seats with seatbelts for ALL passengers
7. FULL DIFF LOCKS front and REAR like the GURKHA from FORCE motors
8. Can ford atleast 3 feet of water with ease!
9. Has a modern multi reflector HL with built in fog lamps
10. A Slick Gearshift unlike the present ones - The NGT530R is by no means "slick"

Plus turn all my negative points to a positive ones if the vehicle is to be sold at a price!!

And I have not even started talking FFRA / Safety etc which the gurus have been suggesting in this thread!
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Old 16th March 2010, 20:06   #1155
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Quote:
Super post, VN: Now the reasons why I find the THAR overpriced are:

1. Quality of Switchgear user is atleast 2 decades old.

2. Quality of HL, Wipers etc - same as above
Honestly Headers i don't have any issue here if it is functional.

Quote:
4. Sad..infact very sad HT tyres for a 4wd performing vehicle - Its like an athlete without proper shoes.
5. Rear side facing seats -
Even this iam OK as tyres are personal choice. If you give Apollo hakwz AT even then people will complain.

Quote:
6. NO AC PW, CL etc. Which means you cant leave any valuables in this vehicle.
This is the real issue for people who are looking for all in one vehicle or a single vehicle for daily run about

Quote:
7. A R&P steering that has a HUGE 4 turns lock to lock! [ A modern car has 2 to 2.5 turns and a F1 car has ONE turn!!]
I don't really see value in it unless you are buying a small car
Quote:
8. No ABS on such a vehicle especially if priced above 6L
Common headers you are joking! Ford Figo with 1.4 duratorq has ABS for 6 lakhs and so does swift. But look at the size of these vehicles, weight and engine displacement. Even if you over look every thing, look at volumes. Don't be so harsh on them and force them to go bankrupt

Quote:

One CAN pay 7+ for the THAR IFF:

1. It has solid axle coil springs
2. Modern Lockable cabin with AC, Heater, PW, PS, ABS, TC etc.
3. NVH is under 50 dB inside at 80 kph
4. GOOD AT tyres
5. Front mounted winch as a std fitment
6. Good Comfortable seats with seatbelts for ALL passengers
7. FULL DIFF LOCKS front and REAR like the GURKHA from FORCE motors
8. Can ford atleast 3 feet of water with ease!
9. Has a modern multi reflector HL with built in fog lamps
10. A Slick Gearshift unlike the present ones - The NGT530R is by no means "slick"
What you are talking about is a complete product redesign and what you are asking for is a mini 4wd SUV. I dont think any one is making it with all the above features

All i see the need is for modern lockable cabin with a/c, heater, and PW to at least contend with other offerings. It gets easier to convince home ministers to sit in a jeep some times at least.



As we all know Thar is a good 3rd or 4th vehicle. Efforts must be made in future to make it 2nd vehicle in the family at least. That's where the volumes are!

Priority for Mahindra is to price it keeping view of future competition. I don't want Thar to become a Mahindra Classic (in terms of practicality), an extinct breed struggling to find buyers in its last days.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 16th March 2010 at 20:09.
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