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Old 17th March 2010, 17:26   #1171
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Yes you and a bunch of others might sell, but it will be a slow moving resulting in slow death model at 10 lakhs.
...

Honestly do you think indian junta will spend 10 lakhs for this or go buy a scorpio or safari?
Well Said - Most of us are not "lucky" enough to spend 10L on a OTR vehicle and keep spending more money every post OTR blues!!

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
I feel 6 lakhs is fair game. Beyond that it is getting trickier.

@vinod the hatch backs you mentioned for 6 lakhs normally come with ABS, airbags, etc.

If Thar is priced above 7 lakhs, I feel that rush of gypsies and jeeps appeararing on the team bhp classifieds will go off the market.

Hey Tini, It took me such a long time to convince you - A Bolero Storm 2WD costs 6.6L odd ex showroom. It has got AC, PW, CL, Keyless entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, SEATBELTS, FFRA and is officially a 7 seater HT which does not LEAK .

Now Subtract "more metal" [Read as 3 doors and associated PW, CL switches] AC, Keyless Entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, Seatbelts, FFRA etc.. and ADD 4wd Tranny, SFRA etc.

Do you think you want to pay more than 6.6L ex Showroom?
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Old 17th March 2010, 18:26   #1172
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A Bolero Storm 2WD costs 6.6L odd ex showroom. It has got AC, PW, CL, Keyless entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, SEATBELTS, FFRA and is officially a 7 seater HT which does not LEAK
Now Subtract "more metal" [Read as 3 doors and associated PW, CL switches] AC, Keyless Entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, Seatbelts, FFRA etc.. and ADD 4wd Tranny, SFRA etc.

Do you think you want to pay more than 6.6L ex Showroom?
The Bolero VLX & Thar has Engine & Chassis Common with different wheelbase.
Now If we compare both I think we can have Bolero Storm 4WD under 8 lakhs- OTR (IF Launched). With all the semi modern creature comforts that it has.

So ideally, Thar HT should be priced under 6 lakhs OTR.
Thar ST, without AC,PS,PW,MP3 Players etc. should be even cheaper.

IMO Mahindra must keep a very basic & cheap 4wd version of Thar which can be priced around 5-5.5 lakhs so as to make it a best seller, not just "SO, FINALLY WE MADE IT..NOW WHAT?" kind of vehicle. (Read Invader, Gateway) No Offence pls.

Now please dont praise it for Modern Chassi, IFS & NEF Engine etc... It has it. But rest of it is not that modern. So it is very much possible to launch it under 5-6lakhs bracket.
....Else we will start another thread for Storm 4WD

Last edited by offroad_maniac : 17th March 2010 at 18:28.
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Old 17th March 2010, 18:54   #1173
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Another Pic of a white Thar .. just for your eyes only...


The Rollcage is Bolted & not welded??? Also the bars looks thin..

Courtesy: 4x4community.co.za. South African Forum. Members are pretty excited there.. so are we.. but we are nobody??? Hence ignored..
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Old 17th March 2010, 18:57   #1174
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ey Tini, It took me such a long time to convince you - A Bolero Storm 2WD costs 6.6L odd ex showroom. It has got AC, PW, CL, Keyless entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, SEATBELTS, FFRA and is officially a 7 seater HT which does not LEAK .

Now Subtract "more metal" [Read as 3 doors and associated PW, CL switches] AC, Keyless Entry, MUSIC SYSTEM, Seatbelts, FFRA etc.. and ADD 4wd Tranny, SFRA etc.

Do you think you want to pay more than 6.6L ex Showroom?
Headers,
Thar must be 6.5 lakhs on road MAX!. Paying 6.5 lakhs and above is ridiculous. At most 50 to 60 K premium can be paid for engine and gearbox over Di turbo and NGT 520 with T 18 and for power steering

Major 4wd retails at 5.23 on road. Invader is at 5.7 lakhs on road! Bolero DI turbo 4wd is at 6.23 lakhs on road.

Now pit Thar against Bolero Di turbo 4wd. even if you add power steering from factory you will just add Rs 40 to 50K. That takes on road cost to 6.8 lakhs a mere 30 K more than Thar. Now if i add a/c which i do have to for Thar as well i have a family tourer with lockable cabin. Of course it will be an underpowered vehicle but if it cruises at about 80 kmph and with tyre upgrades and diff upgrade (in case of DI turbo) you have a formidable machine with solid axle leaf spring suspension.

Another interesting alternative to Thar is invader. Add a/c and p/s this vehicle suddenly becomes a worthy alternative to Thar. Reduce the axle ratio to 4.27 or even 4.88 with 31 inch tall tyres you have a decent off roader in hand that can match and exceed articulation levels of Thar. Plus invader is wider and more comfortable on road. Upgrade on Invader is possible for the on road price of Thar.

So if the ON road price goes above 6.5 lakhs consider Thar almost dead at the beginning itself.

@off road maniac- With those tyres and alloys Thar does manage to look HOT!!. Thanks for the pic.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 17th March 2010 at 19:00.
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Old 17th March 2010, 18:59   #1175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
The Bolero VLX & Thar has Engine & Chassis Common with different wheelbase.
Now If we compare both I think we can have Bolero Storm 4WD under 8 lakhs- OTR (IF Launched). With all the semi modern creature comforts that it has.

So ideally, Thar HT should be priced under 6 lakhs OTR.
Thar ST, without AC,PS,PW,MP3 Players etc. should be even cheaper.

IMO Mahindra must keep a very basic & cheap 4wd version of Thar which can be priced around 5-5.5 lakhs so as to make it a best seller, not just "SO, FINALLY WE MADE IT..NOW WHAT?" kind of vehicle. (Read Invader, Gateway) No Offence pls.

Now please dont praise it for Modern Chassi, IFS & NEF Engine etc... It has it. But rest of it is not that modern. So it is very much possible to launch it under 5-6lakhs bracket.
....Else we will start another thread for Storm 4WD

Team Mahindra THAR, are you there and reading this? Hope we all move in the right direction
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Old 17th March 2010, 19:12   #1176
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
You have been mentioning Family Friendly and Off-Road Capable in the same line. Could you please define Family Friendly and Off-Road Capable in your own words and in your context, with your own Spec-List.
It is very simple Arka. A family friendly offroader is nothing but a hardcore offroad (like CJ/MM) with lockable cabin and AC. Why is it so difficult to imagine? Jimny diesel has front and rear solid axle with coil spring, shorter wheelbase than Gypsy, lockable cabin and AC. That's a family friendly offroader.

Minimum turning radius 4.9m
Ground clearance 190mm
Approach angle 37deg
Ramp breakover angle 31deg
Departure angle 46deg
Max torque 200Nm@1750rpm

Full specs: Jimny:Specifications | Global Suzuki

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Yes you and a bunch of others might sell, but it will be a slow moving resulting in slow death model at 10 lakhs.
How much does a Scorpio 4x4 or Safari 4x4 cost? Jimny is a modern product unlike Gypsy, we can't realistically expect Gypsy price for Jimny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Honestly do you think indian junta will spend 10 lakhs for this or go buy a scorpio or safari?
Scorpio or Safari is too big for estate/village trails. Besides, there are lot of people who don't like big vehicles. For them, a capable 4x4 with small footprint will be a boon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Well Said - Most of us are not "lucky" enough to spend 10L on a OTR vehicle and keep spending more money every post OTR blues!!
It is really sad that you have to resorted to such mockery. First of all, my afford-ability has nothing to do with luck. My dad had a single vehicle all his life, a Lambretta scooter, which he sold once he stopped driving. I have not inherited any property/money. And I didn't win any lottery or received any dowry. My money is hard-earned over 20 years of honest work and careful investments. Therefore, kindly stop alluding to my luck.

I am not very sure what you mean by "keep spending more money every post OTR blues". Unlike you I am not very technical about Jeeps, so I take my Jeep to workshop whenever I see the tiniest problem. I have been stranded on road a few times in my Jeep, so I tend to be careful. If I am a butt of joke for you just because I care a lot about the upkeep of my Jeep despite my ignorance of Jeeps, so be it. I have regularly done many things in my life in spite of people laughing at me. It will be a long list to quote here.
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Old 17th March 2010, 19:20   #1177
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It is really sad that you have to resorted to such mockery. ..My money is hard-earned over 20 years of honest work and careful investments. Therefore, kindly stop alluding to my luck.
Sharat, I Apologise. I did not mean anything to you personally. Its just that I have a different viewpoint and said things differently.
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Old 17th March 2010, 20:10   #1178
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Sharat, I Apologise. I did not mean anything to you personally. Its just that I have a different viewpoint and said things differently.
Accepted. Vikram, I greatly respect your knowledge on offroading and offroad vehicles. But that doesn't mean I will agree on how much we should spend on the vehicles. My work/home responsibilities doesn't let me spend much time tinkering with the Jeep personally. Therefore, I prefer to see modern reliability (like my GV) in an offroad vehicle, even if it costs a little higher. We have different expectations from our vehicles, and hence our thoughts are different.
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Old 17th March 2010, 21:33   #1179
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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
Also the bars looks thin..

Dia of the bar is misleading if you ask me, how strong is it, thats what matters. These are roll over cages, and i wouldn't term them 100 % competition roll cage
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Old 18th March 2010, 10:09   #1180
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
It is very simple Arka. A family friendly offroader is nothing but a hardcore offroad (like CJ/MM) with lockable cabin and AC. Why is it so difficult to imagine? Jimny diesel has front and rear solid axle with coil spring, shorter wheelbase than Gypsy, lockable cabin and AC. That's a family friendly offroader.

Minimum turning radius 4.9m
Ground clearance 190mm
Approach angle 37deg
Ramp breakover angle 31deg
Departure angle 46deg
Max torque 200Nm@1750rpm

Full specs: Jimny:Specifications | Global Suzuki

How much does a Scorpio 4x4 or Safari 4x4 cost? Jimny is a modern product unlike Gypsy, we can't realistically expect Gypsy price for Jimny.

Scorpio or Safari is too big for estate/village trails. Besides, there are lot of people who don't like big vehicles. For them, a capable 4x4 with small footprint will be a boon.

Hi Sharath,

Wrt to a JIMNY, I'm tempted to ask you to define "FAMILY"
a) We Two, Ours Two
b) We Two, Ours One

If the JIMNY is 90" wheel base (MG413W) then it might be a contender.

Comfort = Longer Wheel Base above 100"

Off-Road Ability (Off-The-Bat) = Under 100" Wheel Base

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th March 2010, 13:30   #1181
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Wrt to a JIMNY, I'm tempted to ask you to define "FAMILY"
a) We Two, Ours Two
b) We Two, Ours One
Mostly it has to be a 4-seater. The rear seats could be cramped, but would be fine for the kids.

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
If the JIMNY is 90" wheel base (MG413W) then it might be a contender.

Comfort = Longer Wheel Base above 100"

Off-Road Ability (Off-The-Bat) = Under 100" Wheel Base
Now, how did you conjure up these numbers? My wife has attended offroad events, and her main complaint is with the dust and heat. Once she rode shotgun on CJ340 for 1000kms in less than 48 hours, that is the Munnar-Kodai OTR + drive back via Kodai + the drive back to Manipal. Again, only complaint was about cold, heat and dust. Both of us had no body ache. Therefore, wheelbase alone doesn't decide comfort. With the right suspension setup and good roads, wheelbase can be mostly ignored as far as comfort is concerned.

BTW, the suspension setup on my Jeep is really good, don't know how Jammy achieved it. After CF leafs, it has become even better.

Therefore, in my experience of having actually taken family to offroad events, environmental protection (heat/dust/cold) using lockable cabin and AC is enough to make an offroad vehicle family friendly. Longer wheelbase will help, but it is not absolutely necessary.
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Old 18th March 2010, 14:12   #1182
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post

Now, how did you conjure up these numbers? My wife has attended offroad events, and her main complaint is with the dust and heat. Once she rode shotgun on CJ340 for 1000kms in less than 48 hours, that is the Munnar-Kodai OTR + drive back via Kodai + the drive back to Manipal. Again, only complaint was about cold, heat and dust. Both of us had no body ache. Therefore, wheelbase alone doesn't decide comfort. With the right suspension setup and good roads, wheelbase can be mostly ignored as far as comfort is concerned.

BTW, the suspension setup on my Jeep is really good, don't know how Jammy achieved it. After CF leafs, it has become even better.
Hi Sharath,

I conjure such, numbers from observations of various 4WDs.

And that is the primary reason all 4WD manufacturers have made longer Wheel Base Platforms. The Latest being the JEEP Wrangler Unlimited.

Lets take the M&M vehicles for example, since the leaf spring length for the
CJ3B, CJ500D and MM540 is the same, only the no. of leaves are different.

Which has a better ride? i.e more comfortable.

The Wheel Base decides a whole lot of things which the comfortable people want.
1) High Speed Handling & Stability
2) More Space
3) Better Ride

Regards,

Arka
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Old 18th March 2010, 15:08   #1183
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Originally Posted by offroad_maniac View Post
So ideally, Thar HT should be priced under 6 lakhs OTR.
Thar ST, without AC,PS,PW,MP3 Players etc. should be even cheaper.

IMO Mahindra must keep a very basic & cheap 4wd version of Thar which can be priced around 5-5.5 lakhs so as to make it a best seller, not just "SO, FINALLY WE MADE IT..NOW WHAT?" kind of vehicle. (Read Invader, Gateway) No Offence pls.
Offroad maniac thats a very reasonable logic to the price, thats what it should be but then when after getting used to the fat margins of Major and plus this being more of a out of country target model, it would be priced more than 6 L and that too ex-factory. The on-road price will ensure that you never go off-road again.

Also good to see that link and one person has very definite concerns. Posting his comments from that site - I will be worried about each and every point that he makes more than anything else.

Quote:
A few things of concern though, the general safety did'nt impress me much.

Steering wheel way to close to dash, my nuckles rubbed when turning full locks.

4x4 lever was way down in the foot well, you have to take ur eyes off the obstacle to engage. Engaging is very difficult, and u also GRATE ur knuckles on the centre console.
Also, any idea what will be the GAWR of the Thar SFRA?

Last edited by adc : 18th March 2010 at 15:17.
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Old 18th March 2010, 15:17   #1184
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Sharath,

I conjure such, numbers from observations of various 4WDs.

And that is the primary reason all 4WD manufacturers have made longer Wheel Base Platforms. The Latest being the JEEP Wrangler Unlimited.

Lets take the M&M vehicles for example, since the leaf spring length for the
CJ3B, CJ500D and MM540 is the same, only the no. of leaves are different.

Which has a better ride? i.e more comfortable.

The Wheel Base decides a whole lot of things which the comfortable people want.
1) High Speed Handling & Stability
2) More Space
3) Better Ride

Regards,

Arka
MMs have leave springs. Mostly short wheelbase vehicles with leaf spring have bad ride quality. Coil spring vehicles, esp with independent suspension can give you a good combination of comfort and handling.
As for wheel base, its just a contributing factor, not the "deciding" factor. Its entirely possible to make a good handling short wheelbase vehicle, with reasonably soft springs.
Longer wheelbase will give you more space. however it does not ensure better handling and stability.
the safari has real long wheelbase, however, by no margin its a "good handling" vehicle. On corners its a boat, tail waiting to step out any moment. Ditto for the scorpio.
Handing and ride quality depend on a lot of factors, and wheelbase is not really a "necessary factor".
though I agree to you about space part. Longer wheelbase means more space. So you can travel with kids + luggage.
In a short wheelbase vehicle, the luggage space will be compromised.
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Old 18th March 2010, 15:31   #1185
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
the safari has real long wheelbase, however, by no margin its a "good handling" vehicle. On corners its a boat, tail waiting to step out any moment. Ditto for the scorpio.
Handing and ride quality depend on a lot of factors, and wheelbase is not really a "necessary factor".
Maybe not to be discussed on this thread, but the TATA Safari is not a bench mark for handling SIRJI.
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