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Old 12th April 2010, 12:25   #1351
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Default Final Verdict

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Sorry for the late reply.

Am not a great one for pictures/ reviews etc.

I expect my Bolero to perform EXACTLY like my Armada Grand 4x4. i.e

a) Very underpowered. Even more so at high altitudes. But it will get you where you want to go - slowly.

b) The electrical Xfer case actuation is a confidence sapper. I have faced a failure once on the AG. And the A. S. S. Well, the less said, the better.

c) I expect the power steering to give trouble.


IMO, the CJ series, or its derivatives, is one of the very worst vehicles in which to have a anything but minor collision. It is extremely hard on its occupants.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta,
OT
It is very surprising that you bought a Bolero 4wd slx expecting so many problems blowing 7.5 lakhs? You seem to be very dissatisfied with Bolero 4wd then why buy it specially when you know that it is basically an Armada Grand with a different body shell?

Such a dissatisfied customer cannot be a repeat customer, then why did you go for it knowing that components like power steering, 4wd etc etc are bound to fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Final Verdict?

I would have bought it, but i won't!

Why? If i hadn't bought the classic, maybe then yes i would definitely buy this. I'm too addicted to the SWB now. If they come out with the same package in the Cj340, then yes, i'll put my money down now.

And second honest opinion? Mahindra really diluted the Jeep look with all the other variants that they launched. The classic and CJ340 had it's own identity. As a lifestyle vehicle and to get a yuppy crowd to buy this, i don't know if it will work.
Honest opinion tejas!! This is the primary reason why SWB jeeps like Cj 3B and classic still command such high respect off road!
Thar is a good Rough road vehicle with moderate off road capability. If pockets are deep then it can do almost , well almost what an old jeep or a Gyspy would do. But what others cannot do is "4wd touring in comfort" which others cannot even think of it.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 12th April 2010 at 12:26.
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Old 12th April 2010, 12:37   #1352
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Default Thar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
So i finally got to drive the Thar off road.

Complete report of that OTR here:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...r-ordered.html (Alibaug OTR- Just what the good doctor ordered)

Gogi, who drove it on road, has put up his view there.

There were 4 of us who drove the Thar through the obstacles.

Allan did a slush run.

rhandle and mohan did a climb

I did a rut and climb.

Now remember, i have not driven other jeeps. My comparison here will be to my Classic and to the Gypsy.

Brakes are good. Visibility is good.

Allan, mohan and rahul and add more.

On the way back i was following the thar and man can she fly. According to gogi there is NO body roll. The thar was easily keeping up with Viper's modified type R honda civic at speeds greater than 140 and at times overtaking the honda.
Hi Tejas,

From you write up I get the impression that the Thar is quite Powerful (Torquey) and very refined (Mechanical & Road Manners).

That was evident form the Bangalore Annual OTR.

I want to know more about the robustness/Reliability of the IFS Rack & Pinion Steering and SFRA with MLD.

How were the good ol' MM550XD's doing on the similar terrain.

On the Rough ground the IFS definitely proved to be advantageous.

Would you rate the Thar's Off-Road Ability (Pits/Ruts/Climbs/Turn Around/Articulation to be better than your CJ3B/CLASSIC or Gypsy?

Regards,

Arka
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Old 12th April 2010, 13:06   #1353
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Default comparision

Those who test drove THAR, I would request for comparison

ON ROAD: Please compare it with scorpio or latest boleros and give us the difference.

OFF ROAD: Please compare it with MM540 and give us the difference.
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Old 12th April 2010, 13:38   #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
How were the good ol' MM550XD's doing on the similar terrain.
The terrain was not as difficult in comparison to the bangalore one. Every car cleared every obstacle. Only thing i could make out is that the Thar cleared it in 3rd gear which the others did in 2nd. And the Thar did everything with very less wheel spin.

Quote:
Would you rate the Thar's Off-Road Ability (Pits/Ruts/Climbs/Turn Around/Articulation to be better than your CJ3B/CLASSIC or Gypsy?
Pits: Classic has advantage due to SWB

Ruts: Weren't deep enough to offer a good comparison.

Climbs: Definitely better. Classic needs a longer run up in second gear to get momentum. Gypsy needs to rev high. Thar did it with less run up and less revs.

Turn Around: PS has definite advantage here.

Articulation: Could not compare since the obstacles were not designed for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Those who test drove THAR, I would request for comparison

ON ROAD: Please compare it with scorpio or latest boleros and give us the difference.

OFF ROAD: Please compare it with MM540 and give us the difference.
ON Road: Gogi can comment better. I did see it overtake fast driving scorpios with ease.

OFF Road: see above reply to Arka.

We frankly didn't get enough time with the vehicle to compare it properly or throw her around. Maybe next time.
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Old 12th April 2010, 14:12   #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
So i finally got to drive the Thar off road.

Complete report of that OTR here:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...r-ordered.html (Alibaug OTR- Just what the good doctor ordered)

Super, here is the first official verdict!!
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Old 12th April 2010, 16:04   #1356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Would you rate the Thar's Off-Road Ability (Pits/Ruts/Climbs/Turn Around/Articulation to be better than your CJ3B/CLASSIC or Gypsy?
Arka, when it comes to pure offroadability, i doubt if anything will come close to a SWB, although the MM 550 XD NGCS is a worthy competitor but.. In terms of off-road ability if you rate a SWB(CJ3B) as 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 where in your opinion would a NGCS 550 stand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
ON ROAD: Please compare it with scorpio or latest boleros and give us the difference.

OFF ROAD: Please compare it with MM540 and give us the difference.
Star-aqua well said, this seems to be a rational comparison.

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 12th April 2010 at 16:07.
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Old 12th April 2010, 17:19   #1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
when it comes to pure offroadability, i doubt if anything will come close to a SWB, although the MM 550 XD NGCS is a worthy competitor but.. In terms of off-road ability if you rate a SWB(CJ3B) as 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 where in your opinion would a NGCS 550 stand?

Spikey: I would give the NGCS 550 XD NGCS 8 on 10 and a CJ3B 7 on 10. CJs are awesome machines but are not stable when you want to do huge dunes. The 550s are better here.

But the CJ3s are small and agile which make them jump ditches like nobody else. The MM5?0s need 31 or 32" tyres to have similar ADR angles IMO.

The Hurricane CJ3Bs are in a world of their own.
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Old 12th April 2010, 17:52   #1358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Spikey: I would give the NGCS 550 XD NGCS 8 on 10 and a CJ3B 7 on 10.
But the CJ3s are small and agile which make them jump ditches like nobody else. The MM5?0s need 31 or 32" tyres to have similar ADR angles IMO.

The Hurricane CJ3Bs are in a world of their own.
You are right, Hurricane CJ3Bs are in a different league altogether. You mean to say changing to 31/32" tyres will give MM 540/550 ADR angles similar to a CJ3B. NEVER. Changing tyres will help you slightly but not substantially.

Spike
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Old 12th April 2010, 18:23   #1359
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Default CJ3B vs MM550XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Arka, when it comes to pure offroadability, i doubt if anything will come close to a SWB, although the MM 550 XD NGCS is a worthy competitor but.. In terms of off-road ability if you rate a SWB(CJ3B) as 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 where in your opinion would a NGCS 550 stand?
Star-aqua well said, this seems to be a rational comparison.
Hi Spike,

I would rate off-road capability as.

MM550XDNGCS is 9/10

Major 7.5-8.5/10

CJ500D is 7-7.5/10

CJ3B is 6-7/10

My Criteria is
1) Ruggedness (OKBJ/MRCBT/FFRA/NGCS)
2) Modifiability. (Bigger Engines/Tyres)
3) MWB (international SWB 90-95") is much better off-road. More Stable on Obstacles.

If the CJ3B was so good, then why did the Indian Army after 43 Years Switch to the MM550XD?
They could have gone for the CJ4/CJ4A/CJ500D even earlier

Regards,

Arka

PS - I do own a Silent, and a Very Violent CJ3B

Last edited by ex670c : 12th April 2010 at 18:39.
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Old 12th April 2010, 19:42   #1360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
MM550XDNGCS is 9/10

Major 7.5-8.5/10

CJ500D is 7-7.5/10

CJ3B is 6-7/10


If the CJ3B was so good, then why did the Indian Army after 43 Years Switch to the MM550XD?
They could have gone for the CJ4/CJ4A/CJ500D even earlier
Come on man, CJ3B 6-7. Why so? I don't think, Indian army opted for MM550 XD just because they were better ( i have seen how Army evaluate vehicles before a pilot run so i have some idea of their "proficiency"), although i feel space was a constraint with the 3Bs, what do you say?

Spike
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Old 12th April 2010, 20:45   #1361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Sutripta,
OT
It is very surprising that you bought a Bolero 4wd slx expecting so many problems blowing 7.5 lakhs? You seem to be very dissatisfied with Bolero 4wd then why buy it specially when you know that it is basically an Armada Grand with a different body shell?

Such a dissatisfied customer cannot be a repeat customer, then why did you go for it knowing that components like power steering, 4wd etc etc are bound to fail?
OT.
I would rather say "neither satisfied or dissatisfied". Just that I have no illusions, no stars in my eyes. After (at a conservative estimate) 2 lac Kms in 4x4s, one tends to become blase.

A 4x4 is a tool (in fact applies to any vehicle I can afford. The ones I lust after, I cannot afford). Know its strengths and weaknesses, abilities and capabilities, and use it within that. For that purpose the Bolero fulfills a need, and there is no alternative at this moment in India.

As to why not repair/ rebuild etc, it is a matter of philosophy. If there is an alternative (i.e. a new vehicle) will rather go in for that. Don't buy 2nd hand stuff (only not new vehicle ever bought was a Jonga, a horror story. Even my RD was bought new), keep vehicle standard, and at the end of its useful life, replace it.

The reason why we still have CJ500DPs, 340s, Commanders, Marshalls etc is more due to lack of new alternatives.

Question: Why did people replace Ambassadors with Ambassadors, M800s with M800s?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 12th April 2010, 20:54   #1362
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Default Sibling rivalry

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
You are right, Hurricane CJ3Bs are in a different league altogether. You mean to say changing to 31/32" tyres will give MM 540/550 ADR angles similar to a CJ3B. NEVER. Changing tyres will help you slightly but not substantially.

Spike
Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Spikey: I would give the NGCS 550 XD NGCS 8 on 10 and a CJ3B 7 on 10. CJs are awesome machines but are not stable when you want to do huge dunes. The 550s are better here.

But the CJ3s are small and agile which make them jump ditches like nobody else. The MM5?0s need 31 or 32" tyres to have similar ADR angles IMO.

The Hurricane CJ3Bs are in a world of their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Spike,

I would rate off-road capability as.

MM550XDNGCS is 9/10

Major 7.5-8.5/10

CJ500D is 7-7.5/10

CJ3B is 6-7/10

So its now between iconic 3B; very desirable NGCS mm550; and the Thar!!

I have never owned a 3B and have very sparingly driven off road. From what i have seen these are my observation compared to a 3B and a NGCS 550 XD-

The 3 B advanatge
  • Narrow track advantage in narrow jungle trails
  • Lighter by about 400 kgs!!( Newer NGCS weigh almost 1550 kgs )
  • Better power to weight ratio
  • Better manevourability
  • Easy to recover when stuck
  • Much lighter package and car like to drive
The NGCS MM550 Advantage
  • Much stronger package, chassis axles etc etc
  • Better payload capabillity
  • Tigther turning radius
  • Better highway characterstics
  • Space and ergonomics much better
  • Better stability off road
  • Can be modified with larger options, space not being constraint
A short wheel base is obviously the king off road, provided a long wheel base is suitably modified to off set ADR anglesand power.

A stock MM540 with NDMS tyres 600 16 and a 3B, there should be not doubt that a 3B or a cj 340 is better. However if ADR angles are compensated and additional power is provided just like in case of NGCS 550 i think a 3B will have a tough fight there.

p.s- I too feel that space was one of the major factors for Army's consideration of MM540 among other virtues.

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 12th April 2010 at 20:58.
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Old 12th April 2010, 21:08   #1363
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Vinod well said, i would like to mention here that heavier does not mean stronger, (sometimes making a part heavier makes it brittle too), imagine comparing a KMT and a NGT of similar lengths, NGT although lighter does not necessarily mean it is in anyway inferior to the KMTs, if you have a close look at the construction of gearboxes (from the KMT to NGT specially the bell housing area) you will understand and appreciate what i am talking.

Spike
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Old 12th April 2010, 21:16   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Vinod well said, i would like to mention here that heavier does not mean stronger, (sometimes making a part heavier makes it brittle too), imagine comparing a KMT and a NGT of similar lengths, NGT although lighter does not necessarily mean it is in anyway inferior to the KMTs, if you have a close look at the construction of gearboxes (from the KMT to NGT specially the bell housing area) you will understand and appreciate what i am talking.

Spike
I totally agree with you spike. Thats why it is said "Strength comes by design"!!
Light and strong is the way to go
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Old 12th April 2010, 21:35   #1365
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Hi.. another review from SA member..in reply to my questions in bold...

Quote:
How is it off the road? I did not drive the vehicle off road.

How is the Under body? (Some pics?) Will check and revert - but looks ok

Did you feel any lack of power?
The Power supply is very good, I know some guys made comments on low specs, but the power supply is great in 4H and even much better in 4L - Driving the Thar in traffic also more than enough power. The motor is good for an easy 130km.h after that I recon the wind resistance take over

Is IFS travel enough for normal 4WD routes? The IFS is not better or worst than other manufacturers, luckily the rear axle has got better than ave flex, I would have liked an rear diff lock. I beleive the Thar would be able to do any 4WD route with with ease.

How does it handles corners on road? The Thar is very nippy and corners very well, in fact the body roll is almost to stiff on tarr, I would maybe remove the front anti roll bar, would also increase front wheel travel.

Did you like it?
- Yes, yes, yes - Great drive, very nice power, very smooth - But I dont expect it would be everybody`s cup of tea - I feel there is a lack to detail - on the other hand I love the rugget and bare type vehicle - this will also be the reason why some wont like it.

Another Good review.. Lets wait for Thar pics from Alibaugh OTR. Great Pics & videos they have there (Gypsy vs Jeeps :P)..

Last edited by offroad_maniac : 12th April 2010 at 21:38.
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