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Old 4th May 2010, 23:29   #1456
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Everyone here knows how "Chicken Curry" tastes without Onions, isn't it? (Even people who don't cook know this). No matter what the design is, if it doesn't satisfy the norms laid down, the design is worthless or futile. BTW who said homologation process was over?

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Dear Spike, when Behram Sir posted his 1000th quote, he mentioned that he is presenting herewith the Thar. I presumed that the homologation was complete and it would be launched very soon. Its more than 2 months for that quote and it still seems from your post that the homologation is in progress and that the show still is going on.

Yikes!
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Old 5th May 2010, 07:55   #1457
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Relax, Yikes. We are still 543 posts from the 2000th post. That's probably when we will hear that the homologation is complete. Hopefully by the 3000th, we will hear of the launch and set our eyes and hands on one by the 4000th.

The Thar is not the bread and butter Jeep for Mahindra, so there is no likelihood that they will be in a hurry to release one soon.
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Old 5th May 2010, 09:11   #1458
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Yikes, i am attaching an excel sheet which will give you a brief summary of the tests that a manufacturer has to pass. These are vehicle level tests(read cutting onions), there are hundreds of component level tests also. Imagine getting all these done. Also, it is not necessary that your vehicle passes all these in one go. If one fails, you have to do several iterations. For e.g. if tires fail in some test, there are whole lot of things that can go for a spin as they may be interrelated. While doing all these iterations you also have to ensure production feasibility, part availability for future. This is one reason why standard parts are used, it eliminates all these activities (cutting onions) from the picture.

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Attached Files
File Type: xls IS Standards.xls (69.0 KB, 631 views)
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Old 5th May 2010, 09:20   #1459
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one thing one has to give to Mahindra's. they take their time and a lot of care in testing, re-testing and making absolutely sure before they release something into the marketplace. I respect this method of doing things - it is better to be safe than sorry.

this may be one reason why there has been such a good response overall (amongst the core target segment atleast) for their products right from the Bolero, through Scorpio and Xylo.
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Old 5th May 2010, 10:59   #1460
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Mr. Dhabhar and Spike, the effort you take and the patience you have exhibited in trying to explain so much about the process of getting a car on the road is truly admirable. This is what we always wanted to see in the auto industry. Guys who are passionate about their work and are willing to share openly their interesting journey in the automotive world.

M&M is obviously lucky to have guys like you. I am sure there are many in Tata too who remain as passionate as you. They just haven't discovered TBHP yet I guess
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Old 5th May 2010, 11:18   #1461
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Mr. Dhabhar and Spike, the effort you take and the patience you have exhibited in trying to explain so much about the process of getting a car on the road is truly admirable. This is what we always wanted to see in the auto industry. Guys who are passionate about their work and are willing to share openly their interesting journey in the automotive world.

M&M is obviously lucky to have guys like you. I am sure there are many in Tata too who remain as passionate as you. They just haven't discovered TBHP yet I guess
DKG, it is not the moolah (although i am being paid nuts for what i do) that brought me here. I have repeated this several times, just like you guys it is sheer love of automobiles, which keeps me going, rest everything including THAR happens to be incidental. This is also the reason why I am here (T-BHP).

Spike

P.S. There are a lot many things which I can't disclose in a public forum, if you hear those you will go
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Old 5th May 2010, 23:50   #1462
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
DKG, it is not the moolah (although i am being paid nuts for what i do) that brought me here. I have repeated this several times, just like you guys it is sheer love of automobiles, which keeps me going, rest everything including THAR happens to be incidental. This is also the reason why I am here (T-BHP).

Spike

P.S. There are a lot many things which I can't disclose in a public forum, if you hear those you will go
Thanks Spike for sharing the excel, it sure must be worse than cutting onions.

I can relate to your love of automobiles and we sure are happy to have you around.

Just FYI: I am crazy about automobiles too, thus pursuaded Mech Engineering and then did a PG in Automobile engineering and then an MBA thinking that the developing automotive world would need technocrats like me with lots of technical and managerial knowledge, if life was only kind, then I'd be one of those lucky people employed in the automobile industry. The truth is my work today doesn't involve anything to do with any of my education, it involves learning/managing situations and circumstances that are arising out of globalization in the IT/BPO industry.

Continue waiting for the Thar, you also mentioned that you'll are almost there and should have some tentative launch dates soon. Please let us know as soon as possible.

Some guys have all the luck, not me.

Yikes
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Old 6th May 2010, 08:13   #1463
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Dear all - sorry for disappearing for some time. Vendor visits were in order as we are in the final slog overs now.

Important information - I purposely fitted alternate size of tyres on the Thar with production wheel rims (means only tyre size change), which you guys are expected to do in the field so I wanted to see what happens. I did - Nasik - Mumbai - Pune - Mumbai - Pune - Mumbai (approximately 800 kms) with this configuration. The performance and even the fuel economy have deteriorated beyond acceptable limit. I had expected this result.

Therefore, I request all of you once more - PLEASE DO NOT DEVIATE FROM PRODUCTION SPECIFICATION PARTS. A lot of effort goes in choosing a particular aggregate which we give you. Without meaning to disrespect anyone's capability, I once again humbly but frankly state that it is not the job of self styled mechanics to set the specifications of any car. Recommendations are always welcome but the final decision is always taken after consideration of all parameters.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 6th May 2010, 09:24   #1464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Important information - I purposely fitted alternate size of tyres on the Thar with production wheel rims (means only tyre size change), ...

The performance and even the fuel economy have deteriorated beyond acceptable limit. I had expected this result.

Therefore, I request all of you once more - PLEASE DO NOT DEVIATE FROM PRODUCTION SPECIFICATION PARTS. A lot of effort goes in choosing a particular aggregate which we give you. Without meaning to disrespect anyone's capability, I once again humbly but frankly state that it is not the job of self styled mechanics to set the specifications of any car. Recommendations are always welcome but the final decision is always taken after consideration of all parameters.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Sir, Super post - BUT, it would be appreciated if you had put down SPECS rather than generics..

If we had known the tyre size - based on the tyre OD, you WILL have to recalculate your speedo, odo etc to get CORRECT results.

Else, they are always skewed.

AND If you dont want potential THAR customers to meddle with OE settings, then give them what they WANT!!!!!!!!! {Read Better tyres such as Maxxis, bucket seats etc etc - screw CMVR etc - there are workaround ways}
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Old 6th May 2010, 09:36   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Mr. Dhabhar and Spike, the effort you take and the patience you have exhibited in trying to explain so much about the process of getting a car on the road is truly admirable. This is what we always wanted to see in the auto industry. Guys who are passionate about their work and are willing to share openly their interesting journey in the automotive world.

M&M is obviously lucky to have guys like you. I am sure there are many in Tata too who remain as passionate as you. They just haven't discovered TBHP yet I guess
Deepak,

Very rightly pointed out facts from your end.
Having met Sir Behram, Spike and the rest of the young, enthusiastic core group when I did the THAR test, Their passion transcended into their work and this translation is evident as the outcome called THAR.

Believe me, each one is well deservedly very proud of their contribution and
product, spearheaded by Sir Behram.

Regards,
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:06   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Therefore, I request all of you once more - PLEASE DO NOT DEVIATE FROM PRODUCTION SPECIFICATION PARTS. A lot of effort goes in choosing a particular aggregate which we give you. Without meaning to disrespect anyone's capability, I once again humbly but frankly state that it is not the job of self styled mechanics to set the specifications of any car. Recommendations are always welcome but the final decision is always taken after consideration of all parameters.
While your advise is very obviously well meant you have not addressed an aspect of automobile design which allows for a thriving modifcation industry the world over.

You and the team at M&M have created a vehicle to meet the needs of the broadest spectrum of customers possible. Which essentially implies that you have chosen various design elements to deliver to the expectations of that segment.

The choices you make are true to the expectations of the market you intend to cater to.

Having said that your decisions as regards the vehicle are not entirely absolute. There are tradeoffs in every aspect of automobile design. I'm sure you will agree that automotive design is essentially a balancing act of compromises given the dictates of the market.

In other words there is room for modifications of the Thar depending on what the modifier attempts to achieve. We do obviously need to qualify that the modifier should be clear of the new set of tradeoffs he will re-engineer into the car.

The Thar as how you have finalised will roll over in an instant if you fling it hard into a corner. Basically it is not meant to be driven so. So if someone wants to lower the suspension, fit extremely low profile tyres and fit gas shocks with harder progressive ratings he will achieve his objective of a Thar that will corner harder than what you have finalised. Obviously there are compromises in that setup. Ride comfort will suffer, tyres will get busted in average offroad conditions. But it will corner far more superior to the standard Thar.

Similarly a hard core offroad enthusiast may add lift to the suspension and put larger wheels. Tradeoff will be mileage and dynamic stability. But if his design objective is increased ground clearance then his modification is valid to achieving that objective. Larger tyres will also pose increased stresses on the drivetrain. I'm sure there is room for larger tyres to an extant without compromising the driveline stresses. Obviously your choice of tyre is dependent on your balancing mileage with ride comfort with offroad gc with highway handling and stability.

So altering a car is possible provided the modifier is clear about the new set of tradeoffs he has to live with. Its not so black and white in my opinion.

Being engineers you could tell us what's the upper limit in tyre size the Thar can handle. Can it take a 31 or 33 or 35 incher? Is there enough torque at the wheel to run larger tyres. Can the drive shaft handle the load? Such info would be invaluable from your side. For an offroader performance offroad is more important, not highway cruising and mileage

Last edited by DKG : 6th May 2010 at 10:14.
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:19   #1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Being engineers you could tell us what's the upper limit in tyre size the Thar can handle. Can it take a 31 or 33 or 35 incher? Is there enough torque at the wheel to run larger tyres. Can the drive shaft handle the load? Such info would be invaluable from your side. For an offroader performance offroad is more important, not highway cruising and mileage
Thanks Deepak, for putting it in better words. This expresses many things. I'm sure Behram sir has understood the implications too.

One thing is certain - If the THAR is going to come - It is going to get modded either "the hard cornering way" or the "wall climb over way"

Now, Where is my friend VN?

Last edited by headers : 6th May 2010 at 10:20.
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:30   #1468
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Now here's something BD and Spike could do, maybe not officially but unofficially and possibly through proxy

I am sure many hardcore offroad enthusiasts would want to rip the IFS out of the Thar and install a front leaf suspension.

Here's the problem. Usually any welding or drilling into the chassis would render it unsafe and weaken it.

Tata sells the 207 with IFS and now with rigid axle. I am sure the chassis is the same, they've just welded brackets to enable the solid axle setup.

I am not an engineer so please don't kill me for suggesting this. Is it possible to weld in a solid axle setup on the Thar and if so what welding tech is useable without compromising the chassis integrity?

Obviously a chassis mfg welds brackets onto the chassis to make for a leaf spring setup.

Arka, Headers, RedMM why not a new thread (Call the car the Thar Devil ) on how to modify a Thar to make it a devil offroad. Obviously well researched carefully planned mods that don't compromise the integrity of components while achieving the end objective of a killer machine offroad. I say we put a budget of 2 lacs to do all this.

Objective as already thrashed out a million times

FFRA
Rigid axle up front
Front and rear mechanical lockers
Larger extreme offroad tyres

I see someone smiling

I was just thinking, if you rivet the leaf spring brackets and additionally weld the seams how does it hold up?

Last edited by DKG : 6th May 2010 at 10:42.
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:58   #1469
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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear all - sorry for disappearing for some time. Vendor visits were in order as we are in the final slog overs now.

Important information - I purposely fitted alternate size of tyres on the Thar with production wheel rims (means only tyre size change), which you guys are expected to do in the field so I wanted to see what happens. I did - Nasik - Mumbai - Pune - Mumbai - Pune - Mumbai (approximately 800 kms) with this configuration. The performance and even the fuel economy have deteriorated beyond acceptable limit. I had expected this result.

Therefore, I request all of you once more - PLEASE DO NOT DEVIATE FROM PRODUCTION SPECIFICATION PARTS. A lot of effort goes in choosing a particular aggregate which we give you. Without meaning to disrespect anyone's capability, I once again humbly but frankly state that it is not the job of self styled mechanics to set the specifications of any car. Recommendations are always welcome but the final decision is always taken after consideration of all parameters.
Dear DB Sir,

On behalf of all the Self-Styled Mechanics, who do not dwell in the realm of scientific engineering.

Do you Own a MM540/MM550? then what makes you think you can better it.

Since you don't own a JEEP, and none of the boys in THE design team have ever owned a Mahindra JEEP, what makes you think you guys can talk JEEPs and Off-Road? and go ahead and design an Off-Road vehicle based on the minimum specs given by ARAI?

In 60 yrs M&M could not even copy a Differential Lock Mechanism for its 4WDs. At best it comes up with a Trac-Lok LSD which is 1960s vintage.

It took you guys 30 years to come up with OKBJ front axles, and 160PCD
wheel discs.

What was the Scientific Engineering behind fitting the 13.5Kg LP1109 Wheel Disc, FWHubs, SFRA with LSD on the MM550XD, you know the horror stories of wheel wobble, rear axle failure, etc.

You guys are TEXT BOOK ENGINEERS & Mechanics.

We are Practical Mechanics.

So please don't tell us what we cannot do, if you want to sit on your High Perch of M&M R&D Engineer and smile at us mortals without any inkling scientific engineering please do so.

Tell us how to make it better, if you don't know....... WE WILL GUIDE YOU IN TOTALITY

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 6th May 2010 at 11:01.
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Old 6th May 2010, 11:28   #1470
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DB Sir,

Please explain the Science behind.

1) Heavier Wheel Disc on CKKP Axles i.e pre NGCS MM550XD, what was the effect on the suspension? the Steering components? Tyre?

2) The Steering Specifications (Caster/camber/Toe-in/KPI) being the same of all CKKP vehicle irrespective of weight classification/difference/Wheel Base i.e CJ3B/CJ500D/MM540/FJ460DS443

3) as above for all OKBJ vehicles.

4) OEM Wheel Spacer (Spindles) fitted on DANA44 2 piece FFRA for Cabstar Load/Commercial vehicles.

5) How many prototypes of the Thar have been made?
How many different Rear Leaf Spring Combinations?
How many different Front IFS Torsion Bar decay Rates?

6) The SCIENCE behind putting OEM MLD (Auto-Diff-Locks) on a 1 piece SFRA Axle, this is a brand new vehicle not a after market Junkyard build.

7) The Science behind a Rack & Pinion Steering on a Off-Road vehicle?

If it was so scientific, then why so many variations on the prototypes, I guess you must have have power shortage in R&D Nashik.

Why does the Thar dance while exiting a climb, it is because the suspension is not optimized, weight shift from rear to front, and when the front does not do much, the rear again has to do the work.

Also why didn't you guys get the Scorpio right in the first go, if billions were spent on the research.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 6th May 2010 at 11:41.
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