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Old 31st March 2011, 11:14   #106
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Thanks sreejeshmp for words of encouragement & wisdom!
Yes it will be reborn & hopefully better and more capable then before.

I feel no shame in trying & learning new things or sharing my learning that would benefit others. after all that's what forums are for right?

Cheers
Sunil
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Old 31st March 2011, 12:06   #107
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Sunil,

If you are doing it for trying & learning then its great.I really appreciate the effort.

But I believe making things need some proper design, resources(Both Man and material) and a vision on practicality.

Why can't we start a new tread like "Great ideas and execution failures" ?

- Sreejesh
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Old 31st March 2011, 16:08   #108
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Hisunil, the more I appreciate your enthusiasm the more I feel this is going all wrong.

Please do a rethink.
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Old 31st March 2011, 18:03   #109
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Oh my god. You have actually decided to ruin your vehicle man! This is simply not done. All these mods of removing diesel tank, and winch fitting seem very wrong.
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Old 31st March 2011, 18:37   #110
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

@ Splitfire, What is going wrong? Am I missing something? please elaborate.
@ Tanveer, Why, what's wrong with moving he diesel Tank around, or the winch fitting? it could not be fitted in the front, so moving it to the rear.

I am actually surprised now
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Old 31st March 2011, 23:51   #111
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

I think what people are wondering about is.... Ok, let's look at this image.



When you decided to extend the front overhang by so much, how much of approach angle did you lose? Was that loss of approach angle worth to gain a winch?

Also, what is the effect of adding so much extra weight in an IFS vehicle? Exactly how much weight was it? Considering the cantilever effect, what was resultant load on the IFS? Did you take that all into account?

Last edited by Samurai : 1st April 2011 at 05:33.
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Old 1st April 2011, 08:25   #112
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Sunil, I am surprised that you are surprised...

The whole unit is at least a 100Kilos, adding it in both front and rear will cause some performance issues, besides it looks plain ugly, forgive me being so rude.

Yes, one needs to appreciate few things rare such as a PTO winch, propshaft hand brake - but when newer and better technology is available such as a warn/ramsey, they need to be put to use. I am sure you are spending at least 50K on this whole project, a tabor costs just about that...

Imagine the added driveline stress a PTO winch is going to cause, thats why maybe the warn guys started their line of business...

Look at the tyre project of yours, just because it is OE your didnt stick to those non-sense appolo? tyres - you moved on to cooper (?), apply the same logic in all your efforts on the gurkha, after all it is special (Read - RARE) and cutting a chassis and welding is no joke... I for one can fool around literally, because I have a mayapuri to go to for CJ3B chassis for may be 50K, what will you do??

At the end of it, its your vehicle... just thought I can use our acquaintance to be so open...
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Old 1st April 2011, 09:38   #113
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Arrow Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Sorry to poke my nose in all this but cant hold back .

I have gone through all these things on Jeep & LR , BEFORE I fitted a Warn 10,000 pound electric winch.

I am NOT saying that what Sunil is doing is wrong or it wont work , but the amount of efforts & pains he is taking are too much .

There is a suggestion from my side , please think .

1) keep the winch fitting removable , make a attaching point at rear & front . ( this has been done before with ) . for this you will need to

A) get the pto connectivity via SHAFTS Only at front & rear bumper

B ) make attaching points to slide in the winch unit .& hold it in place

C) this point will include a splined shaft ( male ) for drive At front/rear bumper.

by this you wont need to
a) relocate the tank Or b) loose approach angle


Only disadvantage will be of lifting the winch ( 2 people job ) & attaching it .

Sudarshan

P.S. I can prepare a drawing if you want .
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Old 1st April 2011, 09:41   #114
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I think what people are wondering about is.... Ok, let's look at this image.

When you decided to extend the front overhang by so much, how much of approach angle did you lose? Was that loss of approach angle worth to gain a winch?

Also, what is the effect of adding so much extra weight in an IFS vehicle? Exactly how much weight was it? Considering the cantilever effect, what was resultant load on the IFS? Did you take that all into account?
@ Samurai, thanks for throwing in more light.

yes I know I am loosing approach angle, & all the work I did to gain some of it with the custom bumper design earlier, first wanted to get the basic setup tested & working, later address it by relocating the same at an angle or change the support structure to improve it. in any case its completely removed from the front now. Even if I add an electric winch, I will loose some angle 9surely lesses than what was in the picture, but its not final.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
Sunil, I am surprised that you are surprised...

The whole unit is at least a 100Kilos, adding it in both front and rear will cause some performance issues, besides it looks plain ugly, forgive me being so rude.

Yes, one needs to appreciate few things rare such as a PTO winch, propshaft hand brake - but when newer and better technology is available such as a warn/ramsey, they need to be put to use. I am sure you are spending at least 50K on this whole project, a tabor costs just about that...

Imagine the added driveline stress a PTO winch is going to cause, thats why maybe the warn guys started their line of business...

Look at the tyre project of yours, just because it is OE your didnt stick to those non-sense appolo? tyres - you moved on to cooper (?), apply the same logic in all your efforts on the gurkha, after all it is special (Read - RARE) and cutting a chassis and welding is no joke... I for one can fool around literally, because I have a mayapuri to go to for CJ3B chassis for may be 50K, what will you do??

At the end of it, its your vehicle... just thought I can use our acquaintance to be so open...
@ SV,

No Issues Sir, I take all feedback & criticism constructively

I will get the correct weight of the entire setup. in a Gurkha of 2.6KKgs .1K hardly matters I think its around 65 Kgs (was planning to replace the steel 12mm cable by nylon rope later, if every thing else falls in place which will remove half of the weight.

Yes it looks Ugly, but if it works I was ok with beautifying the ugly part with other mounts or paint & lights, lets first get it to work.

The PTO output is right for from the T-Case, Drive line (front & rear prop or diffs) are not in the picture while using the PTO as the 4x4 liver is to be in neutral.

I am not sure if I got it right, Coppers at OE size surely helped & no second thought about it.

I have not cut my chassis, just opened up the front & rear caps to the tubes & inserted an other tube in to it (the front setup), in the rear, we will fit the winch on the mounts meant for fuel tank (its bout 30 to 35 kgs including the guard) & rear bumper

No worries, I love my vehicle & that should be good enough to protect it.

Looks like people got some wrong picture from the pictures, I haven't cut the chassis at any place, will never do that. have a PTO & want to try (real hard) to use it, if all this fails, will just put an electric winch like most others, but do not want to jump to conclusions without giving it all that I have.

bring it on.

Cheers
Sunil
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Old 1st April 2011, 10:21   #115
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

hisunil:

Please remember that the Gurkha is a Force Motors product with a mercedes gearbox and differentials. The PTO is there from the days this gearbox and t-case was in the Gwagen. But obviously when force motors put their own Chasis, body & suspension. they didn't plan to use the PTO at all.

In my opinion you shouldn't make severe mechanical alterations to try to use the PTO. Force motors never intended for anyone to use it. It just happens to be there from the merc days. But then again, it's your money and you'r car. Good luck with your project (not sarcastically :-))
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Old 1st April 2011, 10:52   #116
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Samurai has mentioned the loss of approach angle already. For a short wheelbase vehicle its one of its USP's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hisunil View Post
At first We tried to make a chassis mount & fit it in the front, connect the PTO to TCase via a vibrator cable.
That placement and routing is incorrect. It is too close to some of the key components of the drive-train. In an OTR situation a damage to any of these parts would make the vehicle difficult to recover. Also slack and point of max load will shift if it sticks to the vehicle parts.

Looking at the braising point, through the pictures it can be made out that it will not take the extreme forces it will be subject to. No wonder it broke at the smallest attempt. The cable is too thick and heavy for it to manage.

Secondly, the welding of the front mount. The welding spots are the weak link here. As far as my knowledge goes the Winch (or point of max load) should be on the chassis and not a separate mount/s. I am sure welding pieces together tech has reached good levels but I still have faith in the bolts and nuts to hold the winch on the chassis. I did see a ripped of winch from a forest department truck that was trying to reel in probably a 2 ton tree. It was welded to the rear of the chassis ladder on a separate mount.

Quote:
Later removed the mounts & welding from front, removed the diesel tank at rear & planning to put winch in its place & connect a propeller shaft (a thick fat one) from T-Case rear output to Winch.
The location would be a hard to get to place in stuck situations. If bogged down or at an angle. Also here a straight line pull would only be possible. Any pull at the angle and the cable will brush the vehicle itself. Which can be disastrous.

And I am never a supporter of changing anything stock which relates to the key components of an offroad vehicle.

Quote:
We are yet to see if the rear setup works, fingers crossed, the Jeep has been in the garage for the past entire month :(
You can experiment but taking a doubtful setup to an OTR would not be a bright idea. Do all the testing where help is close.

Also was the Gurkha ever meant to have a PTO winch? Does it have a factory recommended set up for the PTO Winch.? Have you tried at looking the PTO setups for the Gwagen sold abroad for the same engine and gearbox?

Last edited by Spitfire : 1st April 2011 at 10:56.
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Old 1st April 2011, 12:41   #117
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Sudarshan If you have any pics of the setup please share, in all provability I will give up too & go for a electric one. but want to try it first.

Yes All that I will do should be revertible, no permanent fixes, at least unless tried & tested for couple of months.


Thanks 4x4addict, that helps answer why I cannot use it! I was wondering if we are missing some approach or possibility. your post surely helped. Thanks Again.


Cheers
Sunil
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Old 1st April 2011, 14:17   #118
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

If you keep diesel tank inside car, how are you planning to run fuel pipes and all. Remember, fuel is volatile and dangerous. A jugaad arrangement can always blow up.
Lots of factors come into play, leakage, static electricity... the list goes on.
Even big companies with millions in R&D can get it wrong sometimes, and here you are going random with such critical stuff.
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Old 1st April 2011, 14:59   #119
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Default Re: What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!

Spitfire & tsk1979

Got the points, give me some time to think through & sort them out. will keep you posted.

Thanks Again
Cheers Sunil
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Old 1st April 2011, 19:38   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hisunil View Post
Sudarshan If you have any pics of the setup please share
I cant post a pic though I will add a rough drawing here .

Its a sort of pipe in pipe arrangement ( but quite thicker ones ) & locking pins . You will need to make two such to handle the winch load & alignment . also need to keep the splined shaft (from pto ) in between those two attaching pipes .

There can also be a unipipe design with the shaft going from inside it & locking will be made over the pipe ( for that you really need to have very sturdy pipes )

hope will be of some use .

What’s the best Off-roader under 10L? EDIT : Bought a Gurkha!-winch-attachment.png


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