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Old 29th December 2010, 19:59   #91
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

OT: Can i outsource DwArF build to you

You are super sweet Santhosh! and i meant the complement part!
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Old 29th December 2010, 23:07   #92
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
OT: Can i outsource DwArF build to you
Thx.. Jaggu, not at all OT. would love to, but my mech has no idea of a hurricane and it is very delicate/risky to be fiddled around without knowing about it. But the GB - yes, try to drive catchkumars jeep now and get a feel of the GB, it is slicker than his DDIS's..!!

------------------
All,

There are two types of clutch system in general. The older/extinct 'Coil Spring' clutch and the latest AKA 'Diaphragm' type clutch.

Diaphragm Type -

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Coil-Spring Type -

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All new gen vehicles come with a diap type for its many PLUS points over the coil spring type. For 1, the coil-spring is a VERY HEAVY type clutch, needs quite an effort over the diap type and had led to many a problem like below....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
The Jeep coil spring type clutch is what I blame for my knee and hip trouble
Having met Sutripto, I can now relate how tough the clutch should be to cause his discomfort.

BUT - there are a few obvious MERITS of a Coil Spring over a Diaph type. I may sound like I am harping - but - it is again the serviceability and cost of REPAIR of the system...!!

Yes, for many vehicle owners here, 'clutch' and 'repair' are OXYMORON'S, well actually the people who change the WHOLE clutch kit are made more of a moron by the manufacturer.

Any clutch system consists of the loading plate (Pressure plate) and the Friction plate (the disc with the lining material). The coil spring clutch is fondly called the 'finger type' clutch because of its 3 (in jeep) fingers that are actuated by the release bearing and it pushes the pressure plate onto the clutch disc and thus deactivating the engine power to the GB.

Now, there are many places any clutch system fails over a period of time. I am going to take a example of the fingers - they are available as a KIT and there are many clutch repair/overhaul shops/vendors who charge a nominal labor cost and the kit @ Actual and repair the 'coil spring' type.

For example, the 3 fingers + labor costs 400Rs and little bit of lathe/facing the pressure plate side will bring the clutch loading plate into life.

And, now the clutch disc. A MSL (Mahindra Spicer Limited) clutch plate or a LuK branded clutch disc is around 1600Rs for a brand new piece. The clutch disc looks like this.

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There are many components, but the main one are the base disc and the friction disc.

Base -

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Friction plate -

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-friction.jpg

Now, the same vendor who reworks the pressure/loading plate, can work a clutch disc also. There are 2 critical parameters that need to be checked. The Rivet Quality and the friction disc authenticity. Kits are sold by clutch companies and used to repair all types of busted/in repair condition clutches.

---------------------------

In this case, Kumars jeep had the old type coil spring clutch which gave ALL SYMPTOMS of a FAILED clutch and needed a sure shot replacement. We sat thru the removal and were bracing ourselves for a 4000Rs spend on new and complete clutch kit. Clutch pedal needed to be released almost complete to engage the clutch and we had little hope. But, upon inspection we realized only the finger was busted due to a slightly smaller release bearing being used and it had eaten up the fingers altogether. New finger kit was 400Rs inclusive of labor.

Next the clutch plate showed signs of burn marks. Not due to lack of SPF45, but clutch fading and excessive clutch riding - which was needed due to above para (worn out fingers).

We could have just done a relining of this disc, but we found out the center spindle of the disc had some slight play and would lead to jerky starts, so ditched that idea, and exchanged this disc for a rebuild/relined disc with brand new lining and a proper spring/spindle setup - 600Rs.

For 1000Rs we now have a coil spring system which would make Sutripto smile, i am not kidding, it is butter smooth and does not feel hard at all. Did a mini OTR and no sings of fade/slip etc.

Kumar, please post all the clutch rebuild pics now. We were awaiting the results so as to not mislead new guys who want to save some $ by trying this idea.

Last edited by svsantosh : 29th December 2010 at 23:13.
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Old 29th December 2010, 23:57   #93
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
There are two types of clutch system in general. The older/extinct 'Coil Spring' clutch and the latest AKA 'Diaphragm' type clutch.
.

Santhosh looks like you started having more conversations with your father than ever before
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Old 30th December 2010, 11:48   #94
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Working along the Jeep Doctors is great fun if you get involved :-)
Realized this only at Hosur along with Babu the trusted doctor & Santosh who is always ready to go that extra mile to help you.

As Santosh mentioned earlier we literally opened up the coil type clutch system in my jeep & replaced the fingers - the below pictures should help visualize the process -

1. Opening the Coil spring type clutch assembly
2. This is how it looks when opened up
3. The Old Fingers & the extent of abuse
4. The old & new Fingers compared
5. The Old & New Clutch Disk
6. Post assembly

End result - Smoother Gear shifts :-)
Of course with keeping the costs under control.
Cost of New Fingers - Rs. 400 (Set of 3)
New Clutch Disk - Rs. 600
And all this work took just about minutes to complete before we took it back to the workshop next door.
The best part about Hosur is that everything is next door & getting things done is that much quicker here when compared to Bangalore & not to forget the cost effectiveness.

Will post all the costs involved with spares & Labor shortly.

Regards,
Kumar
Attached Thumbnails
My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-opening.jpg  

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-clutch-opened.jpg  

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-oldfingers.jpg  

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-clutchfingersnewold.jpg  

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-old-new-plate.jpg  

My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help-afterassembly.jpg  

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Old 30th December 2010, 14:49   #95
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Slight clarification to last but one pic. The left side (black) is the new plate, right is the old one (burn marks on inner dia)
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Old 31st December 2010, 01:51   #96
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Kumar, Good to know she is back home.

How is your impression on her after all this works done. Please share.
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Old 31st December 2010, 08:39   #97
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

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Originally Posted by ganesh_bbr View Post
Kumar, Good to know she is back home.

How is your impression on her after all this works done. Please share.
Let me know as well, Looking forward to hear about the beauty.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 23:01   #98
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post

Having met Sutripto, I can now relate how tough the clutch should be to cause his discomfort.

Actually, at that time, I would get a laugh out of the fact that the 500DP was my daily drive. Which would reduce my 'macho' friends to quivering jelly at the end of two days. I suppose a subconcious reason for not doing something about it. The follies of youth! The price of which you pay later on.

There are 2 critical parameters that need to be checked. The Rivet Quality and the friction disc authenticity.

Check for cracks at the rivets next to the springs (the ones whic are in the plane of the plate)

[u][i]For 1000Rs we now have a coil spring system which would make Sutripto smile, i am not kidding, it is butter smooth and does not feel hard at all. Did a mini OTR and no sings of fade/slip etc.

A new/ rebuilt clutch will feel smooth, question is how soft. Harder/ softer should be a function of how much you are compressing the springs. And as such clutches should become softer as they wear out. The opposite happens. I have a (unproven) theory, but would like others views on why.
This line is to meet the forums message length requirements.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 13th January 2011, 23:11   #99
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Jeep back at mechs place for another set of checkups/replacements.

Water pump nearing failure - changed new
radiator hoses - new
fuel pipe from tank-pump - new
rear SFRA axle assy opened up - overhauled - 1 new bearing and all new oil seals/packing kit
rear brakes cleaned up
front and rear diff oil was brown/black - changed to new
steering had major death wobble - bell crank/TRE checked/tightened
steering box hard - oil was 'Completely Empty and DRY' - filled oil to full level

Another 3.5K~ into the jeep - hopefully for the better.

PS - Kumar as said over phone, had the rear SFRA bearing broke, you would have become a statistic in Arkas' reason for asking for a FFRA on any offroading jeep..!! It was pulp and brittle and red with rust.
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Old 14th January 2011, 00:46   #100
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Santhosh on a stock vehicle without any lsd/locker, sfra is fine as long as it is maintained well.
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Old 14th January 2011, 13:47   #101
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Jaggu, I agree. I did a few (very few) OTRs on my stock SFRA. But in this case the bearing was bust and that is the only thing holding the axle from popping out IIRC.
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Old 24th January 2011, 17:13   #102
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

The Jeep is almost ready except for the leaking silencer & the battery to be replaced.
Me & Santosh did a small practice OTR before i hit the big league @ Avvalkonda this week.
We removed all the overhangs & the huge headlight domes which was sitting on the front bumper so that we have minimal chances of damage if at all any & the aux. headlights as it was a hindrance in case we need to tow it using the rihnos.
Can somebody help me get a Powerzone 90AH battery or some leads from where i can pick it up please.
Looking forward to meet all Jeep Gurus @ the event :-)

Regards,
Kumar
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Old 25th January 2011, 12:09   #103
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A new/ rebuilt clutch will feel smooth, question is how soft. Harder/ softer should be a function of how much you are compressing the springs. And as such clutches should become softer as they wear out. The opposite happens. I have a (unproven) theory, but would like others views on why
Sutripto,

I have a theory. As the clutch cover wears out, yes - they become soft, AKA weak. What are the springs for in the 1st place? To push the cover plate away from the friction plate, right? Now when the springs are new they are 'taut' and push the release bearing with less effort since they dont compress a lot. Now, when the springs wear out, they flex more, become soft, and when you press the pedal they only flex and dont push the bearing, hence requiring more effort to actually de-clutch.
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Old 31st January 2011, 20:09   #104
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

^^^^
Hi,
"Clutch wearing out" means lining wearing out. => pressure plate moves towards flywheel. => the coil springs extend more. => less effort to compress by a given amount. => lighter clutch.

Maybe your father can help.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 31st January 2011, 20:55   #105
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Default Re: My Willys CJ Low Bonnet - Need Help

Slightly OT

As far as i can see in the pictures posted by catchkumar , this is a locally done up jeep in bahadhurpura in hyderabad. These conversions i am very familiar with.

They make ford GPW out of commanders.

To retain the extra set of headlamps the rhino hooks need to be fitted atleast 1 to 2 inches out of the bumper using a bracket.

This allows us to retain the auxillary lights as well as save the bumper from scratches and damage during towing with a steel cable.
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