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Old 31st May 2010, 21:48   #466
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@ Spike: Slightly OT but I saw a BS-IV Storm today. What are the changes in the engine that has led to reduction in Fuel Efficiency from 13.52 for BSIII to 12.80 for BS-IV.

Any increase in power? Also have these changes been incorporated in the THAR as well?
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Old 31st May 2010, 22:10   #467
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DKG sir, the following will partially answer your question I think...

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Originally Posted by bblost View Post
DKG, not speaking for Thar(the user_id), but since everyone who has test driven the Thar(the jeep) says it can handle most of the terrain in 2wd thanks to its immense torque.

Maybe for a user who will only encounter bad roads with gradient the 2wd makes sense.
BBLost sir, you may not have spoken for me, but have read my mind well.

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Originally Posted by fazalaliadil View Post
The difference will be somewhere around a lakh between a 4X4 and a 4X2, and not 20k. One of the most expensive component is a 4X4 front differential in a vehicle.
Janaab Fazal Ali Adil Sahab, true that and more the moving parts the more the headaches/ repair costs. A 2WD with AC and hardtop being offered alongside the 4WD would make good sense for ordinary people like me.

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Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
Any idea if Thar would be launched before July mid. Will soon be in the market for a personal transport and am all excited by what i have heard about Thar.

Current drive a saloon(Octavia) and have always been excited by a rugged , 'dent- resistant' ride.
I understand you totally!!
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Old 1st June 2010, 06:19   #468
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Venky, economies of scale will never cover the basic material costs
What is economies of scale then? How is a product priced? Maybe We need some gyan here!

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Originally Posted by Thar View Post
Janaab Fazal Ali Adil Sahab, true that and more the moving parts the more the headaches/ repair costs. A 2WD with AC and hardtop being offered alongside the 4WD would make good sense for ordinary people like me.
Lets wait and see how the THAR is marketed. Though sincerely if the THAR is in 2wd form, its character is lost. It will be compared to the MM540 govt. vehicles and will sell only at that price.

One can always not use the 4wd option too!
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Old 1st June 2010, 06:24   #469
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Lets wait and see how the THAR is marketed. Though sincerely if the THAR is in 2wd form, its character is lost. It will be compared to the MM540 govt. vehicles and will sell only at that price.

One can always not use the 4wd option too!
+1 to that. The moment THAR comes out in 2WD its nothing but a Govt Jeep WITH ALMOST 0 Brand value!

Vinod are you listening?
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:01   #470
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Originally Posted by Thar View Post
Janaab Fazal Ali Adil Sahab, true that and more the moving parts the more the headaches/ repair costs. A 2WD with AC and hardtop being offered alongside the 4WD would make good sense for ordinary people like me.
Dear Thar, headers, Mile cruncher.

There are some things I agree here, hence my opinion differs with that of headers and MC at the risk of facing their wrath.

2WD or 4WD...these are purely a matter of individual buyers choice.

Factors such as application, affordability, maintainability etc. for the user play a vital role.

For example lets assume Thar (the member) buys Thar (the Jeep), he is not interested in off-roading, all he wants is a good soft off-roader any 2WD can perform with a better GC, a good looking modern machine to drive around to work and also to play.

Now he has several things going in his mind...

"when I am not going to use the 4WD, why should I pay a lakh extra for something I may never use???"

"I can use that 1 lakh to upgrade the Jeep when it comes off the showroom or later or can just save itby not spending it."


" A 4WD with extra moving parts is not only going to be expensive but also heavy on maintainance and fuel."

2WD or 4WD debate within the buyer will be very common and is also helpful for the company who can't bring down the cost of the vehicle due to various factors and here by knocking out the front diff. and aux. they have knocked down about a lakh and voila made it significantly affordable. This affordability transfers into more Thar numbers on road which is a double win situation for the seller and the buyer. As both are getting what they want and more important, what they need.

Personally, in the past I have picked up four 540's 2WD and converted them all to 4WD, if a Thar 2WD sells for 2 lakhs less, I would still pick up the 4WD.

As for the O brand value for the 4WD Thar, it can be overcome by a few conspicuous differences between the two.

Freedom to choose as per ones requirement and catering to this is a very important marketing component/ tool. Customer needs/ requirements just can't be overlooked in today's competitive market especially when they can translate into numbers and finally when economics for the manufacturer comes into play. Kind Attn. Vinod.


Regards,

Last edited by fazalaliadil : 1st June 2010 at 09:17.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:44   #471
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Fazal well said. The decision if at all to release the Thar in variants other than the 4wd would purely be a marketing choice to expand the market for the vehicle.

Audi was made most famous by the Quattro in recent times (past two decades) They still have the Quattro version on the A6 but they also sell the regular 2wd. Same for 911's

I do agree that the primary character of the Thar is best defined as a 4wd vehicle considering it is so good offroad. But more than 95% of people who buy SUV's never take their vehicles off tarmac, let alone doing some offroading.

So it makes marketing sense to offer the Thar in 2wd also to cater to a segment who will buy it for the fun factor of a soft top Jeep and especially for its strong lifestyle product appeal. Some would like it for its engine/drivetrain, looks, and high seating postition as a alternative to hatchbacks

Last edited by DKG : 1st June 2010 at 09:46.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:59   #472
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Fazal Saab & Deepakji:

I understand what you are saying but understanding the positioning of THAR as a "Lifestyle Vehicle" wouldn't having a 2WD option dilute its DNA.

Agreed that 95% of SUV owners don't take their vehicles off -road but that doesn't mean people stop buying Pajeros, Fortuners, Audi QX, Touaregs et al which are available only in 4x4.

Also agree that there are examples on both sides, but the call that the Brand Team has to take is whether introducing a 2WD THAR will dilute its DNA and again position in the mind's of the normal customer (outside of TBHP) in the category of Major / Commander and all. So whether the Trade-off Brand Dilution vs Increased Mass Acceptability is worth it or not is for Vinod & his tame to take.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:30   #473
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Talking Heyyyyyy it's June....

Okay all debates granted, all view points are good, everyone is great... But sirji where is the Thar? Not to worry though I've stuck my bolero together with duct tape and It'll hang in there till the Thar is on the shelves.
I 'm gonna be very selfish and get what I want after a long time.

Regards,

Chaunfa
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:52   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
Fazal Saab & Deepakji:

I understand what you are saying but understanding the positioning of THAR as a "Lifestyle Vehicle" wouldn't having a 2WD option dilute its DNA.

Agreed that 95% of SUV owners don't take their vehicles off -road but that doesn't mean people stop buying Pajeros, Fortuners, Audi QX, Touaregs et al which are available only in 4x4.

Also agree that there are examples on both sides, but the call that the Brand Team has to take is whether introducing a 2WD THAR will dilute its DNA and again position in the mind's of the normal customer (outside of TBHP) in the category of Major / Commander and all. So whether the Trade-off Brand Dilution vs Increased Mass Acceptability is worth it or not is for Vinod & his tame to take.
MileCruncher,

How many can afford the Pajeros, Fortuners, Audi QX, Touaregs et al which are available only in 4x4? What is the volume of these vehicles sold in India and what is the unti price?

Here many are cribbing about the price of the Thar when it is projected to be not much higher priced above the obsolete Major.

The DNA will not get the manufacturer profits or sustainability but numbers, these very numbers are crucial for the manufacturer to continue to give us the 4X4's.

I wouldn't term it as "brand dilution", it is so for Jeepers who know and use 4X4's as they should be. For others it just does not matter.

Did not the MM540 come in both variants?

There is no difference in looks of a MM540 4WD or 2WD or MM550, have they not been a roaring success with Jeepers in India and did not our fellow members still go for 540's/550's?

There are many seasoned hardcore experienced members like Arka who would not part with their MM for any other Jeep though they came in both versions.

Regards,


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Old 1st June 2010, 11:07   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
@ Spike: Slightly OT but I saw a BS-IV Storm today. What are the changes in the engine that has led to reduction in Fuel Efficiency from 13.52 for BSIII to 12.80 for BS-IV.

Any increase in power? Also have these changes been incorporated in the THAR as well?
What is the torque mentioned for this one? I don't think there will be any increase in power. However, THAR will be more powerful than the one you have mentioned.

Spike
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:31   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
positioning of THAR as a "Lifestyle Vehicle" wouldn't having a 2WD option dilute its DNA
Look at it this way Aniruddha. How many people will buy the Thar for the kind of use you and I would intend putting it to? Not many.

Which means if M&M launch this vehicle only as a 4wd (at 1 lakh more expensive on account of 4wd) they may be losing out on a wider segment that will not necessarily view the Thar as a offroader.

Actually I am looking at this whole thing from a slightly selfish perspective. I feel the Thar must sell in larger numbers than it would were it to be launched purely as a 4wd. I see 2wd version as the only chance it has to garner some share of the hatchback market provided it has a lockable removeable hardtop with a/c cabin and power steering.

More numbers mean the car will become a permanent part of the lineup and will benefit from newer tech as time passes. Next generation Thar will get the MHawk drivetrain. It can only get better.

The spinoff for us is with more cars being sold R&D gets to have a freer hand in designing stuff specifically for the Thar. So ultimately even the 4wd enthusiasts benefit.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:23   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Look at it this way Aniruddha. How many people will buy the Thar for the kind of use you and I would intend putting it to? Not many.

Which means if M&M launch this vehicle only as a 4wd (at 1 lakh more expensive on account of 4wd) they may be losing out on a wider segment that will not necessarily view the Thar as a offroader.

Actually I am looking at this whole thing from a slightly selfish perspective. I feel the Thar must sell in larger numbers than it would were it to be launched purely as a 4wd. I see 2wd version as the only chance it has to garner some share of the hatchback market provided it has a lockable removeable hardtop with a/c cabin and power steering.

More numbers mean the car will become a permanent part of the lineup and will benefit from newer tech as time passes. Next generation Thar will get the MHawk drivetrain. It can only get better.

The spinoff for us is with more cars being sold R&D gets to have a freer hand in designing stuff specifically for the Thar. So ultimately even the 4wd enthusiasts benefit.
Case in point is Classic. Even though it was admired by all enthusiasts, it did not last long as the numbers were not enough to keep it in continous production. Manufacturers requires the numbers to keep it in the production lines, else the product is shelved.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:37   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
But more than 95% of people who buy SUV's never take their vehicles off tarmac, let alone doing some offroading.
DKG,

Your statement above is well supported by the statistics collected by the Vehicle Dealers Group and Insurance Groups here in Dubai.

As per the statistics the longest "off road" 90 to 95 % of the awsome 4x4s here have done is the "Parking Lots" of the various shopping malls here (in some case like Dubai Mall etc the "off road" could be a really long drive though). Then again you can do this in 2WD.

Due to this reason there is only marginal difference between the Insurance Premium rates of Saloon cars and 4x4s even by Insurance companies who cover accidents to 4x4s in "real OTR situations - recreational or otherwise.

The big size and the illusion of protection it (4x4) offers in collission scenarios (which is a "clear and present danger" in UAE roads, due to the high speeds possible and the mish mash of driving habit/cultures) is what prompts the buy decision for most people who own one.

If Thar would be at least 80% of what it is being proported to be in this thread, I personally would not consider it still, if it were to come only in 2WD. If a 4x4 option (ex MM) is available then it would be an incentive to consider.

Best Regards & Drive/Ride Safe

Ram

Last edited by r_nairtvm : 1st June 2010 at 12:40.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:41   #479
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Originally Posted by jp1 View Post
Case in point is Classic. Even though it was admired by all enthusiasts, it did not last long as the numbers were not enough to keep it in continous production. Manufacturers requires the numbers to keep it in the production lines, else the product is shelved.
Yes true, but that was 1995. Today the market is very different and matured. The total numbers have also increased drastically. In those years when having a car was luxury, today it is necessity.

I feel that M&M should atleast try to start a 4X4 DNA. So launch the THAR with 4WD and then may be 6 months later bring out the 2wd if numbers are not enough. Even CRV did the same thing IIRC.
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Old 1st June 2010, 14:52   #480
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Default Thar 2wd

My 2 cents, from the point of view of a newbie to 4x4 vehicles:

I've been saving for a new Maruti Gypsy for six months now. Started out with the idea of getting a 'good' used one, but that's proving to be a real myth. More than 'pure' 4x4 capability, what I'd like is reliability over long highway distances, coupled with the ability to handle the broken terrain of Ladakh, monsoon-swept hairpins of Agumbe, and the sandy trails of the Rann of Kutch (have already been over these by Bullet). Add to that, some amount of nimbleness required to negotiate Bangalore's traffic and it's lack of parking, a reasonable ride so that the wife doesn't totally hate the vehicle, and some hauling space for building material. I know that there simply is no vehicle in the Indian market yet that covers all of these criteria, but I think the Gypsy comes closest. The character of the Gypsy is a welcome extra.

If the Thar can give me all of this without my having to spend an extra lakh for a 4wd, then hey, I'm perfectly ok with buying the 'inferior' 2wd version! (Of course, if Maruti doesn't grace us with a BS IV Gypsy, it may be the Thar by default.)
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