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Old 23rd June 2010, 22:32   #601
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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
My POV to point 7.
Do you think Mahindra has any other design in its books. The entire fortunes of Mahindra were built on the basis of this 'udhar' design. Almost all the vehicles in the Mahindra stable bear a direct resemblance or are offshoots of the jeep design, barring the Scorpio, bolero, & xylo. The Scorpio & Xylo now qualify as rodent look alikes with the toothed grill, so that gives you an idea of their design prowess.

Back to the point. The 'udhar' Jeep design is quite good to look at, even though its quite old, its quite a charmer. The mechanicals of the THAR seem to have been reworked to a price point with adequate basic new tech.Isnt it great to have your first love by your side after your married.. if you can manage the maintenance.. LOL!!
Please forgive if I am off topic , I beg you ! Please forgive if my points are Irrelevent! But please dont start WW2 over this
As far as I can explain
1) Ask the gurus about the chassis advantage , oh I remember some mahindra (army ) white colour having this tubular chassis . Or visit my place , I have a 89 model ( bought new ) 540 4x4 on which I can explain more & if you can bring some one from mahindras. Bahut Maza Aayega
Pune is only 3 hrs from your place. Oh forgot to tell you I have broken the 89's chassis once but yet to break the Land Rovers.
2) My knowledge about Diesel availability is Limited sorry ,I will prefer 2 tanks , by the way a 40+ year old Land Rover has a 68 liter tank ,ok waste of money
3)Forget it a Winch is a useless thing , Hey have you seen the movie 'gods must be crazy part 1 ( original)
4) oil cooling ? Useles too
5) My original 'mahindra ' bracket broke thrice, so moved the battery up front (Reason -- bad roads )
6) Samurai please
7)
8&9) Please do visit me with a mahindra tech. guy. I have broken the Original 'Key ' type axcels twice . then converted to the Full floating ones with the Dellhiwala Talbros material 19 years & 1 lakh km ago, now Happy
yes & for coil suspension wait they are developing it. may be in my next janam.
One Question for all the Gurus , After how many years & Tests ( by customers --failed ) & experiments Did the mahindras finnaly produced a tubular chassis ? ( for long wheel base ) & by which design house & from which country ?
This is just for ref.
yours Sudarshan

Last edited by Sudarshan : 23rd June 2010 at 22:39. Reason: additions
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Old 24th June 2010, 13:13   #602
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Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Now, that would be very very commendable.. if Mahindra did that. But I dont think they will. It has taken then so so long to just come up with the THAR in the current form.. Endless years just to plonk a decent engine inside it...

Lets wait for the final product.. lets see what they have done to the interiors.. and what is in the OPTIONS list!!
To my knowledge, it did not take them too long to come out with Thar. It is already being sold abroad. As per my understanding, in India it is late due to procedural issues. Refer following link to see Thar in action in SA

Mahindra Thar - SA 4x4 Community Forum - The only forum for the offroad and 4x4 enthusiast Page 5

Last edited by jp1 : 24th June 2010 at 13:15.
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Old 25th June 2010, 08:01   #603
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@sudharsan:

It seems to me that you are expecting a Landrover from Mahindra. Let me tell you upfront my friend, that you will be seriously disappointed. Time to move on and get back in the landrover mate.. Thar can never be a replacement to the landrover. The only thing it will offer over the landrover is sheer power, better handling, relability and refinement. In most offroad situation, land-rover will still rule. As discussed in this thread at various points, the primary objective of the Thar was to be able to cruise at 140 kmph in 2WD.


Either way vehicle design has been frozen and sent for homologization so any design changes including two fuel tanks etc.. ain't happening.
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Old 25th June 2010, 08:21   #604
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
the primary objective of the Thar was to be able to cruise at 140 kmph in 2WD.
oops..not cruise, but touch 142 kph top speed// maybe it can do 120 all day..
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Old 25th June 2010, 09:24   #605
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
@sudharsan:

It seems to me that you are expecting a Landrover from Mahindra. Let me tell you upfront my friend, that you will be seriously disappointed. Time to move on and get back in the landrover mate.. Thar can never be a replacement to the landrover. The only thing it will offer over the landrover is sheer power, better handling, relability and refinement. In most offroad situation, land-rover will still rule. As discussed in this thread at various points, the primary objective of the Thar was to be able to cruise at 140 kmph in 2WD.


Either way vehicle design has been frozen and sent for homologization so any design changes including two fuel tanks etc.. ain't happening.
May be you are right . But am I asking too much ?
I dont expect another Land Rover, But I would like to see some thing as compitent & equal 4X4 from our 'own people' .Why can't we (Indians) produce some thing as good as the Land Rover or any Japaneese 4x4.
The Land Rover is not God, its not the Ultimate,it has evolved from the Jeep. But it corrected the Jeeps shortcomings .(but has its own flaws)
Why can't we take lessons from the Japs ? ( after so many years of experiance of Auto manufacturing )
There are few simple things that do not require much of technology.for example.
1) our's is a dusty country hense we require larger Air filters
2) we have Variety of terrain so suitable models , (Rainy area ,desert/dry terrain, hilly area, the coastal region ) Each area requires certain spl. things/alterations with the vehicle
3) There is another issue of handicaped drivers , we can provide reliable kits from the manufacturer ( Not much specialisation ,there can be 4/5 broader versions )
Are we as a nation capable to produce our OWN brand ?
Yours Sudarshan.
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Old 25th June 2010, 10:57   #606
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@jp1 Sir, thank you very much for the link to the African 4X4 forum. A lot of information/ feedback posted on that forum was very useful to me.

Kind Attention Members From Mahindra
Sirs, one very observant member from the African 4X4 forum using the ID Mario.Za has brought up the following vehicle security concerns that are very real and need looking into for sure:

Quote:
Diesel cap has no lock
Spare wheel has no anti theft mechanisms
No Alarm
No immobiliser
Doors cannot lock
Bonnet clips open and close. Easy to break clips open and wire start the engine.
Please tell us that these issues will be solved on the Thar that will be offered to us, thank you.

PS: If nothing else, making at least the fuel cap and bonnet secure will be very highly appreciated.
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Old 26th June 2010, 19:48   #607
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@sudharshan:

The original CJs, Landrover Series, Landcruisers etc where designed at a time when they had to operate in areas with no roads. Times are changing and now extreme 4x4s are more for recreational purposes than for real 4x4 usage. The defender is dying a slow death since only hardcore farmers and enthusiasts still buy it. I am almost certain that it will get discontinued shortly and Tata will not replace it with anything as capable. People are more hung up on handling/comfort that hard core 4x4. There is only a small sect of enthusiasts who will have to take stock vehicles and modify it.
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Old 28th June 2010, 12:29   #608
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Default Thar for the tourer?

I guess all the debate about IFS and solid axle and blah blah has died down. I can kind of post my query.
Frankly speaking, I don't care about IFS, articulation etc., much.
If I buy a "lifestyle vehicle", I would like something which betters the safari for touring.
So my questions
1. How big is the Fuel tank and how much is the FE I can expect at high altitudes. Safari gives me a solid 600km range. Its very important in the himalayas where fuel stops are few and far
2. Sure, Behram and team have taken it to lot of OTRs, but I frankly don't care about OTRs, I care about long distance touring. Can it do 15 hours non stop drives at 100kmph on the highways. Can it do cross country high altitude driving(12-14 hours in rarified air) without overheating. Lot of jeep guys took their jeeps to Leh, and returned home frustrated. Okay, those jeeps were rebuilt Army disposal. But I am kind of scared about reliability and functionality of jeeps on himalayan tracks. This Thar has gone to OTRs but never gone to high altitude. Is the Testing team planning a ladakh cross country run through tough terrain to see what breaks?
3. Comfort - If a vehicle kills the driver, it does not matter how good it is. Does it have a soft suspension. Can it filter out the road?
4. Water fording - How deep can she go. Can I ford with headlights dipped?
5. Suspension - Will I need a visit to service center after every trip for a tie rod etc., change?
6. Service intervals - The scorpio requires a service every 5K. Will Thar be the same. If so, its a bad thing. You cannot plan your trips around services. Longer trips for me last 5K. With 15K intervals of Tatas, I can ride around the country, and still not require a service. Possible in thar?
7. Per km cost - Touring costs money, and if your vehicle also costs money to maintain to the tune of 1rs/km, its a no go. In the first 50,000kms I expect 50p/km service cost. MY Safari gives me that. 60p/km in the first 50,000kms excluding tires. Will Thar beat such costs?

From what I see, the questions I ask are different from what an off roader asks, because doing an OTR is very different from doing a Himalayan ride. There are well defined trails, with some river crossings etc., The challenge is the extreme temp differential. -5 at night ant 25 in day, with rarified air. Overheating is the biggest problem with jeeps up there.

So Behram Sir, can you please give your thoughts, since you are the test engineer for this vehicle. Till now your team seems to be targetting the OTR crowd, but I hope your test plan includes testing for Himalayan touring robustness.
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Old 28th June 2010, 13:01   #609
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Good points Tanveer & a different but very relevant insight on THAR for a change. Even i am more interested to see the THAR as a Himalayan Tourer vehicle rather than a strictly OTR machine. As per comforts are concerned definitely someone habituated with a luxurious SUV needs to readjust to the standard of a Jeep.
Rarefied air, huge swings in temperature, overheating.....hmm i am sure the THAR team must be having some plans to test these out on the hills. Though i assume, the performance should be much much better than the old school jeeps on these parameters. Regarding highway cruising, i am more or less convinced from the test reports that it is capable of cruising all day long in 100km/hr band. More details awaited from the THAR team.
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Old 28th June 2010, 13:37   #610
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Hey Guys, Though BD and team would correct as appropriate, let me try my bit here:

Please read my opinion in Bold below

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So my questions
1. How big is the Fuel tank and how much is the FE I can expect at high altitudes. Safari gives me a solid 600km range. Its very important in the himalayas where fuel stops are few and far

The Tank will be 45L capacity and should provide you a 600 km range

2. Sure, Behram and team have taken it to lot of OTRs, but I frankly don't care about OTRs, I care about long distance touring. Can it do 15 hours non stop drives at 100kmph on the highways.

Yes it can

Can it do cross country high altitude driving(12-14 hours in rarified air) without overheating.

Yes it can

Lot of jeep guys took their jeeps to Leh, and returned home frustrated. Okay, those jeeps were rebuilt Army disposal. But I am kind of scared about reliability and functionality of jeeps on himalayan tracks. This Thar has gone to OTRs but never gone to high altitude. Is the Testing team planning a ladakh cross country run through tough terrain to see what breaks?

This only the THAR team would answer - But knowing it is a modern common rail BS4 complaint engine i can tell you it wont sweat the Himalayan Heights!!

3. Comfort - If a vehicle kills the driver, it does not matter how good it is. Does it have a soft suspension. Can it filter out the road?

There are various settings, and AFAIK, the lucky ones get an indash switch to change settings too.

Honestly, The Safari has some track for long distance touring and the THAR is yet to make its mark!



4. Water fording - How deep can she go. Can I ford with headlights dipped?

I'm sure one can if a correct snorkel is fitted and one learns how to drive.


5. Suspension - Will I need a visit to service center after every trip for a tie rod etc., change?

You BET!!

6. Service intervals - The scorpio requires a service every 5K. Will Thar be the same. If so, its a bad thing. You cannot plan your trips around services. Longer trips for me last 5K. With 15K intervals of Tatas, I can ride around the country, and still not require a service. Possible in thar?

Actually, - A longer service interval does not mean a better vehicle, it only means the vehicle is able to run on dirty air and oil for longer! There are guys who do service every 20K kms only

7. Per km cost - Touring costs money, and if your vehicle also costs money to maintain to the tune of 1rs/km, its a no go. In the first 50,000kms I expect 50p/km service cost. MY Safari gives me that. 60p/km in the first 50,000kms excluding tires. Will Thar beat such costs?

They seem to be from different segments - But how is the Safari only 60p/km?


From what I see, the questions I ask are different from what an off roader asks, because doing an OTR is very different from doing a Himalayan ride. There are well defined trails, with some river crossings etc., The challenge is the extreme temp differential. -5 at night ant 25 in day, with rarified air. Overheating is the biggest problem with jeeps up there.

Boss, Jeeps are old tech, old stuff. The THAR is a new current generation diesel mill that is plonked onto a tried and tested chassis and body.

You will not have mechanical issues, I hope


So Behram Sir, can you please give your thoughts, since you are the test engineer for this vehicle. Till now your team seems to be targetting the OTR crowd, but I hope your test plan includes testing for Himalayan touring robustness.
I dont think the THAR is targetted at OTR crowd - Infact the OTR crowd seems to be their biggest critics.

Anyways, interesting episode to a stalemate!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kandisa View Post
Good points Tanveer & a different but very relevant insight on THAR for a change. Even i am more interested to see the THAR as a Himalayan Tourer vehicle rather than a strictly OTR machine. As per comforts are concerned definitely someone habituated with a luxurious SUV needs to readjust to the standard of a Jeep.
Rarefied air, huge swings in temperature, overheating.....hmm i am sure the THAR team must be having some plans to test these out on the hills. Though i assume, the performance should be much much better than the old school jeeps on these parameters. Regarding highway cruising, i am more or less convinced from the test reports that it is capable of cruising all day long in 100km/hr band. More details awaited from the THAR team.
Yup, The SUV touring comforts cannot be matched by the THAR.
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Old 28th June 2010, 13:39   #611
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I hope people who have participated and seen the Thar on use at the Alfa Kilo would make their studied comments here.

Lot has been said, but there is nothing like experiencing it in the flesh! So people, please share.

And I do hope BD has not put up a NDA on the video's and picture's of Thar.
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Old 28th June 2010, 14:10   #612
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@ Tanveer & others: The engine in the THAR is the same one as Xylo / STorm with a slightly different data sets. The reliability of the engine I think can be put to rest. It can easily do 15 hour runs at 100 KMPH + speeds without any issues. I haven't seen the engine temp gauge registering any other display apart from slightly below half way mark in my Storm in the last 28 K Kms and in the THAR also I have seen it to hover around the same mark. As about the suspension, its slightly on the harder side so almost "0" body roll. But I understand M&M are using something like " Dual Stage" leaf springs on the THAR which soaks up bad roads beautifully.

I have a few videos of the THAR doing obstacles which I'll put up soon
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Old 28th June 2010, 15:29   #613
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Saw the Thar again during EXAMM and AKC. It performed admirably on the trails off-road and on-road. Immense power in the engine (probably this one is running the 140bhp export version) and it can drive itself out of a difficult situation purely due to it's sheer grunt!

Waiting begins...
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Old 28th June 2010, 17:03   #614
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thanks Milecruncher. I am aware the engine is similar, so I guess it should do fine. But still, if Behram can confirm that apart from OTRs he has done extensive high altitude testing, it will be in the running after 2-3 years.
@headers, I note down every single repair expense for the safari. In the past 50,000kms of ownership, my repair/service cost has been 0.65rs/km
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Old 28th June 2010, 17:11   #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Immense power in the engine (probably this one is running the 140bhp export version) and it can drive itself out of a difficult situation purely due to it's sheer grunt!
Actually it was running FE version ECU dataset, the one with the least power/torque. Still it was really a handful. Now imagine how it will perform with the 140bhp ECU. Yes, after 18 months of first hearing about the Thar, I finally got to drive it in a very tricky offroad obstacle, the one where most Gypsies failed.

At first I totally underestimated the power of the engine and almost went up the rock wall on the right. It was like riding a tiger. Then I reversed and decided to give only half the throttle than I normally give in my CJ340. Once I got used to the totally different dynamics of the Thar, I came out of the ditch quite easily. It gives you an unfair advantage over regular Jeeps and Gypsies.

As most EXAMM/AKC participants have noted, Thar did everything what Jeeps and Gypsies could do, and did it with much ease. Yes, it may have some flaws, but we have been living with lot more flaws with Jeeps and Gypsies. I think we can finally put the doubts about Thar's offroad ability to rest.
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