Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Vehicles


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd July 2010, 10:52   #706
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,026
Thanked: 373 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader View Post
1. ECU should have 3-4 settings (like knob on the dash) - Off-road / Hill Climb, City, Highway/ Economy. One setting for all sometimes insulated the 'engine power' to 'task-on-hand'...i say this b'cos i've witnessed a almost brand new Scropio mHawk struggling to do a hill-climb (masinagudi-ooty - 36 pin-curve)...however zipping in the city and highway...no time / nor a data-set to re-map using a laptop / an ECU software...in the middle of the road!
Well I am a big fat 0 when it comes to automobile technology but at the risk of being ridiculed based on my basic understanding of system. I think that this is not something which ECU can do with data map.

What ECU can do is to control the parameters for controlling the mechanical aggregates for best possible usage but can not overcome the mechanical limitations.

Lets take the example of Scorpio , It is peppy to drive in signal to signal urban road racing scenarios due to a wider 1st and 2nd gear which becomes a hindrance in steep hill climb as you need low gear ratio. On other hand if you have a low 1st and 2nd gear ratio it wont give that illusion of being a awesome powerful engine in urban settings. Probably 4X4 Scorpio with low gear ratio can take care of it. Most people do not understand why 1st gear being short is good thing for SUV and go for peppiness so probably M&M selected that in 2WD Scorpio.Still a good driver who knows how and when to use breaks and how much pedal to press so as not to break momentum can do Masinagudi ghat in an inferior vehicle as well.

On the other hand hill ascent and descent assist uses the break / ABS system to pevent rollback of the vehicle so driver does not need to rely on his skills with break pedal and hand break in extreme climb and an average joe can just drive uphill.
amitk26 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 10:55   #707
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default 4WD vs Off-Roader

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
Arka,

1. Can I put 35 inch tyres ?
2. Can The THAR do a jump [5ft or higher] during an offroad competition and regain steering control? and vehicle composure?
3. How has the THAR with SFRA become safe after you drove one while FFRA was known to be safe all along?
4. Can I put full diff lockers front and rear
5. How does the IFS act, if there is a winch up front and the vehicle is winching another one?

Please elaborate each of the above points
1) No
2) Yes, the question is will the IFS and Rack & Pinion Survive.
3) It has not become any safer, I still prefer FFRA as it has safety.
4) Its Dana 44 19 Spline Front & Dana 44 30 Spline Rear
5) Anybody's Guess, the Suspension and Steering will Definitely get strained.

If someone expects the Thar to do a really punishing off-road or competition, it will manage, but its ultimately the driver, who has to handle the vehicle and makes sure it finishes.

There is no point in taking a Knife to a Gun Fight.

With the IFS setup the Thar has lost a lot on the Modifications department, which is inherent with a JEEP.

Regards,

Arka
ex670c is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 13:34   #708
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,852
Thanked: 15,407 Times
Default

Another non offroad question.
Thar has a jeep shape, which inherently is not aerodynamic.
Such shapes have a proboem. For example the gypsy, even with 80bhp mpfi engine runs out of breath at 120 due to wind resistance, and if you drive around 90-100kmph fuel efficiency suffers. At around 70-80 you can get 14kmpl.

How is the thar in this regard.
Whats the FE you guys are getting when driving at consistent 100kmph + speeds?
tsk1979 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 18:29   #709
BHPian
 
jack33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: kochi
Posts: 128
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Since it is based on the mm540 body shell, can we expect all those problems associated with it like
1.Rusting with in 3/4 years.
2.Breaking of body mounts/bushes.
3.Non availabilty of OE quality spare parts etc.
jack33 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 18:59   #710
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Tejas@perioimpl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,947
Thanked: 4,766 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack33 View Post
Since it is based on the mm540 body shell, can we expect all those problems associated with it like
1.Rusting with in 3/4 years.
2.Breaking of body mounts/bushes.
3.Non availabilty of OE quality spare parts etc.
1. Come on! You can't compare a 20 year old paint process with today's! The tub may look the same, but the paint process would definitely improve! How many scorpios have you seen rusted early?

2. How many times do you break body mounts? Use polyurethane ones now. easily available.

3. Once Thar goes into production, you will get OE stuff.
Tejas@perioimpl is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 20:09   #711
BHPian
 
jack33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: kochi
Posts: 128
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
1. Come on! You can't compare a 20 year old paint process with today's! The tub may look the same, but the paint process would definitely improve! How many scorpios have you seen rusted early?

2. How many times do you break body mounts? Use polyurethane ones now. easily available.


3. Once Thar goes into production, you will get OE stuff.
Tejas, I'm not seeing many scorpio's getting rusted but there are lots of 2007 Majors with serious rusting.
When you use your jeep for daily offroading then certain body mounting bushes fail often.
And regarding OE spare parts, they have been producing CJ 500 and 540s for decades and still difficult to get OE quality spare parts.
jack33 is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 20:33   #712
Senior - BHPian
 
SPIKE ARRESTOR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 2,653
Thanked: 679 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack33 View Post
Tejas, I'm not seeing many scorpio's getting rusted but there are lots of 2007 Majors with serious rusting.
When you use your jeep for daily offroading then certain body mounting bushes fail often.
That's simply because both the paint processes (for Scorpio and Major) are different, although I can't divulge any details but let me assure you paint quality is much much better from what it used to be.

Body mounting bushes/insulators won't fail. Is there any specific failure mode that you are worried of?

Spike
SPIKE ARRESTOR is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 21:38   #713
Senior - BHPian
 
joshguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,358
Thanked: 88 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack33 View Post
3.Non availabilty of OE quality spare parts etc.
+ Can we take Thar to *** of Mahindra ,will they be trained on it or will they look at it like a alien??

Thats the current situation in the chennai market
joshguy is offline  
Old 2nd July 2010, 21:52   #714
BHPian
 
jack33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: kochi
Posts: 128
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
That's simply because both the paint processes (for Scorpio and Major) are different, although I can't divulge any details but let me assure you paint quality is much much better from what it used to be.

Body mounting bushes/insulators won't fail. Is there any specific failure mode that you are worried of?

Spike
This is exactly what we want to know spike, whether the body/paint quality will be scorpio like or like major.The biggest overhead on my 1997 mm540 till date was on it's body, my engine at 160000 plus kms is perfect,drive-train is okay,electrical good, but have done painting and patch work at every 3-4 years spending around 30000 rs and off the duty for about 2 months each time. Will the mahindra be able to give a 10 year guarantee for it's paint.

The body mounting used to get cracked just beneath the brake pedal area with in an year.
jack33 is offline  
Old 3rd July 2010, 09:17   #715
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,201
Thanked: 821 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack33 View Post
This is exactly what we want to know spike, whether the body/paint quality will be scorpio like or like major.The biggest overhead on my 1997 mm540 till date was on it's body, my engine at 160000 plus kms is perfect,drive-train is okay,electrical good, but have done painting and patch work at every 3-4 years spending around 30000 rs and off the duty for about 2 months each time. Will the mahindra be able to give a 10 year guarantee for it's paint.

The body mounting used to get cracked just beneath the brake pedal area with in an year.
Hello, I have a 540 for 21 years, & been avoiding washing it from insides.I think that prevents rusting a lot (what a car )
Also does your 540 has the Brake master cylinder on Chassis ? If yes ,then the chassis is Sagging ( may be not the correct word ) as you can see in many old 540's.( have a look at the bulkhead/firewall & front wing/mudguard joint , it appears to be widening from bottom )
Its a very nasty thing with the old mahindras(not the Jeep), the chassis sags/cracks yes , just bellow the drivers foot. Has happened with me .
Yours frustrated mahindrain ( Not a Jeeper ) Sudarshan.
P.S. A Jeeper in me just refuses to die .
Sudarshan is offline  
Old 3rd July 2010, 22:40   #716
BHPian
 
star_aqua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: BLR
Posts: 612
Thanked: 88 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader View Post
Hi All,

This is an amazing phenomena, where the potencial customers and the product makers meet to develop highly customised products; this has all the best ingrediants to be a 'casy study' in any business school..i am sure this would be documented and discussed in most marketing discussions..
Definitely this is going to be a case study. wait and watch for the outcome after the product launch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invader View Post
I've some inputs here, not sure how many might agree to see them in a new Thar....i would be delighted if I see them in my Thar -

1. ECU should have 3-4 settings (like knob on the dash) - Off-road / Hill Climb, City, Highway/ Economy. One setting for all sometimes insulated the 'engine power' to 'task-on-hand'...i say this b'cos i've witnessed a almost brand new Scropio mHawk struggling to do a hill-climb (masinagudi-ooty - 36 pin-curve)...however zipping in the city and highway...no time / nor a data-set to re-map using a laptop / an ECU software...in the middle of the road!

A simple nob should do the wonders...again please do not mis-understand that i need fancy gadgets like the Skoda Yeti which does Hill-Climb and Hill-Decent on my behalf....NO.....ECU should not insulate the engine power / low end torque / control RPM....when doing an insane activilty like hard-core offroading...also it should be burried in a water / moisture-tight
cavity..
Different datasets with a simple knob is not possible. However you can have a multiple state switch(knob) for selecting a set of predefined torque with a predefined rpm. But within full load torque defined by the dataset. such implementations are only available for various PTO applications in trucks and off-highway vehicles.

So What can you expect in THAR?
A knob to request the idle up and a idle speed adjustment resistor to adjust the rpm and the torque limited to full load of that particular rpm when you are not touching the "chamcha".
This will help you off the road in most situations.. and also if you get a PTO winch on THAR..

you can have one more knob to deactivate the active surge dampers to have some advantages of old school diesels while descending.

if m&m knows how to learn the diff ratio when the tyre circumference is changed, then you have the option of changing the tire size also. so that the engine will not have to work on full load range when you install a bigger tyre. the emissions will still be the same. Anyways this is patented feature used by one of the offroader manufacturer.
star_aqua is offline  
Old 3rd July 2010, 23:06   #717
Senior - BHPian
 
vinod_nookala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,737
Thanked: 410 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Definitely this is going to be a case study. wait and watch for the outcome after the product launch.



Different datasets with a simple knob is not possible. However you can have a multiple state switch(knob) for selecting a set of predefined torque with a predefined rpm. But within full load torque defined by the dataset. such implementations are only available for various PTO applications in trucks and off-highway vehicles.

So What can you expect in THAR?
A knob to request the idle up and a idle speed adjustment resistor to adjust the rpm and the torque limited to full load of that particular rpm when you are not touching the "chamcha".
This will help you off the road in most situations.. and also if you get a PTO winch on THAR..

you can have one more knob to deactivate the active surge dampers to have some advantages of old school diesels while descending.

if m&m knows how to learn the diff ratio when the tyre circumference is changed, then you have the option of changing the tire size also. so that the engine will not have to work on full load range when you install a bigger tyre. the emissions will still be the same. Anyways this is patented feature used by one of the offroader manufacturer.
A very useful insight there. Can be a little more elobrate here? Who has patented it?
Behram and spike ypur imputs here would be interesting. This may not be specific to THAR, but acedemic discussion would be good
vinod_nookala is offline  
Old 4th July 2010, 03:39   #718
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,781
Thanked: 694 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
A very useful insight there. Can be a little more elobrate here? Who has patented it?
Behram and spike ypur imputs here would be interesting. This may not be specific to THAR, but acedemic discussion would be good
The risk is that a manufacturer wishing to do this runs afoul of the regulatory folks...air pollution etc. Switching settings can move the engine out of BSIV compliance, or, will be seen as possibly doing this by the gov boys. Could be people-government messy.

Aftermarket "black boxes" that override or replace existing chips often have a control with several settings from mild to wild from which to choose from. These are legal in much of the world but maybe not for long.

I understand that variable ratio differentials, differentials whose ratios can changed by the driver when the situation warrants, have been experimented with in recent years. Nothing has come of it so far due to cost and regulatory problems.
DirtyDan is offline  
Old 4th July 2010, 06:19   #719
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,548
Thanked: 424 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
Different datasets with a simple knob is not possible. However you can have a multiple state switch(knob) for selecting a set of predefined torque with a predefined rpm. But within full load torque defined by the dataset. such implementations are only available for various PTO applications in trucks and off-highway vehicles.

So What can you expect in THAR?
A knob to request the idle up and a idle speed adjustment resistor to adjust the rpm and the torque limited to full load of that particular rpm when you are not touching the "chamcha".
This will help you off the road in most situations.. and also if you get a PTO winch on THAR..

you can have one more knob to deactivate the active surge dampers to have some advantages of old school diesels while descending.

if m&m knows how to learn the diff ratio when the tyre circumference is changed, then you have the option of changing the tire size also. so that the engine will not have to work on full load range when you install a bigger tyre. the emissions will still be the same. Anyways this is patented feature used by one of the offroader manufacturer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
I understand that variable ratio differentials, differentials whose ratios can changed by the driver when the situation warrants, have been experimented with in recent years. Nothing has come of it so far due to cost and regulatory problems.
DD, Apparently We are not talking variable differential ratios, but variable torque and power curves such as the one explained above.

This should not be too difficult in the THAR

You've got 26 kgm torque to play around in that vehicle. A PTO winch would be welcome

Also, will the paint quality be a la Scorpio or Major?
headers is offline  
Old 4th July 2010, 11:17   #720
Senior - BHPian
 
DirtyDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dharamsala
Posts: 1,781
Thanked: 694 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post
DD, Apparently We are not talking variable differential ratios, but variable torque and power curves such as the one explained above.
Yeah, but there is more than one way to get it...and I did mention one other.
DirtyDan is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
She is home, She is Hot & Yes its Punto arishi1 Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 91 13th November 2009 10:50
456GT Engine Blows manziee_crusier Technical Stuff 0 21st February 2008 11:52
Hyundai blows whistle on small car norm navdeep The Indian Car Scene 11 24th January 2007 16:02
Maruti blows away competition again! neverclever The Indian Car Scene 5 20th October 2004 04:09


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 09:31.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks