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Old 21st April 2011, 18:23   #211
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Yup heat plays a havoc with the OE fuel pump, maybe add two packings at the end connecting to engine to reduce the heat transfer. Should help a bit. Am also planning to cover the metal petrol pipe with rubber or asbestos to reduce the fuel line heat up. This becomes a pain for hot starts.
The distance of the push rod will increase and so will be the Pumping capacity.

Not advisable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubz View Post
Fuel pump was working today (strangely). New electronic fuel pump installed. a little away from the chassis. Will use it as it is. Will actuate electronic pump if the OE pump fails.

The other starter motor is being serviced. Will be changing over to that after that as the existing one doesn't seem to be "returning bendix" as per Gopal, so the toyota'ish sound.

Packing on the OE pump - Good idea! will have it tried.
The thing is, the pushrod is anyways in contact with the gear inside the engine, so the heat generally transfers, but to cool the fuel pump, there are lots of ventilation provided. A Willys / Ford Jeep engines, if tuned well dont heat up so much that it packs up the Fuel pump.

There is one more live example which has been running since decades on original fuel pump.
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Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 21st April 2011 at 18:24.
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Old 21st April 2011, 19:19   #212
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

Gopal has spent a lot of time and energy tuning the engine. I could still see the temp gauge hovering around 80's+ and now this new story of pump conking off cos of the heat.

What else can be tried?
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Old 21st April 2011, 19:37   #213
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

Hi Shubz,

How Have connected the Fuel Supply?
Tank>Electronic Pump>Mechanical Pump>Carb

Some things I have done over the Years

1) Wet Cotton Socks on the Mechanical Fuel Pump.

2) Premier 118NE Plastic Fan (not Available) reverted to metal Fan

3) 4 Core Radiator.
i) Keep the Height and width same as the OEM.
ii) with Overflow Tank and 7psi/0.5 Cap.
iii) Use Coolant. You can always spot a leak

4) Electronic & Mechanical Fuel Pump in tandem.
i) Please Check the Direction of Flow.
ii) Mount the Electronic Fuel Pump on the LHS Fender.
iii) the OEM Mechanical Pump comes with a "Fibre" Spacer, this also serves in reducing Fuel Pressure to the Carb.

5) Increase the idling speed to 1000-1100rpm for better cooling and oil circulation.

6) Check Ignition Coil & Cable. Mount The Ignition Coil on the Firewall

Regards,

Arka

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ons-cj-3b.html (All questions for CJ 3B)

Last edited by ex670c : 21st April 2011 at 19:41. Reason: addl. info
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Old 21st April 2011, 19:51   #214
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Hi Shubz,

How Have connected the Fuel Supply?
Tank>Electronic Pump>Mechanical Pump>Carb

ii) Mount the Electronic Fuel Pump on the LHS Fender.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ons-cj-3b.html (All questions for CJ 3B)
Thats a BAD Idea.

Never do that. An electronic fuel pump is always better under the fuel tank.

Let it do the PUMPING action rather than SUCTION. Also ,it stays cooler there

The original Pump works better, i think its just with the setting.
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Old 21st April 2011, 20:04   #215
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Shubz,

How Have connected the Fuel Supply?
Tank>Electronic Pump>Mechanical Pump>Carb

Some things I have done over the Years

1) Wet Cotton Socks on the Mechanical Fuel Pump.

2) Premier 118NE Plastic Fan (not Available) reverted to metal Fan

3) 4 Core Radiator.
i) Keep the Height and width same as the OEM.
ii) with Overflow Tank and 7psi/0.5 Cap.
iii) Use Coolant. You can always spot a leak

4) Electronic & Mechanical Fuel Pump in tandem.
i) Please Check the Direction of Flow.
ii) Mount the Electronic Fuel Pump on the LHS Fender.
iii) the OEM Mechanical Pump comes with a "Fibre" Spacer, this also serves in reducing Fuel Pressure to the Carb.

5) Increase the idling speed to 1000-1100rpm for better cooling and oil circulation.

6) Check Ignition Coil & Cable. Mount The Ignition Coil on the Firewall

Regards,

Arka

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ons-cj-3b.html (All questions for CJ 3B)
Arka sir,

Here are my answers.

Fuel supply has been connected as follows

Tank > 1 fuel filter > electronic pump > Another filter > Mechanical pump > Carb.

Wet cotton socks - Can you please elaborate on this?

Metal fan is the one installed.

Radiator was never changes and I guess it is the 4 core one.

Height and width same as OEM.

Overflow tank already installed. Got OE 7psi/0.5 cap.

Though not sure of the quantity of coolant, coolant indeed has been added as the water is green when the cap is opened for inspection.

Electronic and mech pump working in tandem, no shortcuts deployed.

Direction of flow has been verified physically and found okay.

Modern electronic pump fitted about 6 inches away from the chassis, just under the tank, as the intermediate exhaust pipe runs close to the chassis, hence was transferring heat to the electronic pump.

a gasket type spacer used to mount the AC pump to the engine body with gasket bonding paste.

Idling speed is around the 1000 mark - this was confirmed by Gopal as he suggested that I run the engine at higher idling till the running in is complete.

Ignition coil is mounted on the firewall on the passenger side (this is a LHD).

Last edited by Shubz : 21st April 2011 at 20:06.
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Old 21st April 2011, 23:38   #216
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Arka sir,

Wet cotton socks - Can you please elaborate on this?
You've to read between the lines what Arka has said.

Its very simple, imagine a scenario where your engine temperature is HOT, due to Heat dissipated, your Fuel pump stops pumping fuel = Car Stalls

Take out your cotton socks (if you intend to wear one and drive), and if luckily you are carrying a cold bottle of water, Wet the socks with Water, place it on the head of the Fuel Pump - DONE. The fuel pump coools down and starts functioning.

Your engine layout is Perfect, Gopal Sir always gets it right.

All the Best.
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Old 21st April 2011, 23:51   #217
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
You've to read between the lines what Arka has said.

Its very simple, imagine a scenario where your engine temperature is HOT, due to Heat dissipated, your Fuel pump stops pumping fuel = Car Stalls

Take out your cotton socks (if you intend to wear one and drive), and if luckily you are carrying a cold bottle of water, Wet the socks with Water, place it on the head of the Fuel Pump - DONE. The fuel pump coools down and starts functioning.

Your engine layout is Perfect, Gopal Sir always gets it right.

All the Best.
And I really thought this was some known process followed by many. I do wear cotton socks.. but don't think I can keep wetting it while negotiating awesome city traffic.

As you said - Gopal has put a lot of mind and energy into it. He wasn't sure about the AC pump though. He did dismantle it and just put it back as he said he wasn't too sure about it.

He has spoken to someone to see if he can get another pump or at least a pump kit. Today he said, I could drive it as usual with the OE pump and use the electronic one if that fails.

But I am not happy with this arrangement. prior to the build, I was using the electronic pump just to prime before starting. Never used it while running.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 12:45   #218
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Thats a BAD Idea.

Never do that. An electronic fuel pump is always better under the fuel tank.

Let it do the PUMPING action rather than SUCTION. Also ,it stays cooler there

The original Pump works better, i think its just with the setting.

Hi Pavan,

I guess you are speaking from you experience with JEEPs or Cars?.

Inside the bonnet has a few advantages.
i) Better Access.
ii) Cooling From the fan Throw.
iii) under the tub the Tank, pump and Exhaust are very close and a recipe for disaster.

Please elaborate on the original pump and settings,

Since you are at it, please explain suction and pumping with the above context.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 22nd April 2011, 12:48   #219
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
You've to read between the lines what Arka has said.

Its very simple, imagine a scenario where your engine temperature is HOT, due to Heat dissipated, your Fuel pump stops pumping fuel = Car Stalls

Take out your cotton socks (if you intend to wear one and drive), and if luckily you are carrying a cold bottle of water, Wet the socks with Water, place it on the head of the Fuel Pump - DONE. The fuel pump coools down and starts functioning.

Your engine layout is Perfect, Gopal Sir always gets it right.

All the Best.
Hi Pavan,

In all your enthusiasm you forgot Thermal Shock.

Also instead of just posting some pics, why don't you post something related to the topic.

@ Shubz, You can wrap the Mechanical Fuel pump, with a Cotton Sock, filled with cotton, and wet this before you head out for a drive, and wet it from time to time.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 22nd April 2011, 13:38   #220
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Pavan,

I guess you are speaking from you experience with JEEPs or Cars?.

Inside the bonnet has a few advantages.
i) Better Access.
ii) Cooling From the fan Throw.
iii) under the tub the Tank, pump and Exhaust are very close and a recipe for disaster.

Please elaborate on the original pump and settings,

Since you are at it, please explain suction and pumping with the above context.

Regards,

Arka
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Pavan,

In all your enthusiasm you forgot Thermal Shock.

Also instead of just posting some pics, why don't you post something related to the topic.

@ Shubz, You can wrap the Mechanical Fuel pump, with a Cotton Sock, filled with cotton, and wet this before you head out for a drive, and wet it from time to time.

Regards,

Arka
Let me get to Technicality and not go further

1) A Well tuned Hurricane / Go-Devil engines DONOT run HOT.

2) The mechanical fuel pump works just perfectly.

3) The Cotton Socks and other Stories are "JUGAAD" and is better avoided.

4) A Electronic Fuel pump ensures a constant supply of Fuel irrespective of the engine rpm, and usually susceptible to failures, leaving us stranded at times.

5) Placing the EFP inside the engine room further aggrevates the Heat dissipated to the EFP. Further the EFP will be working as a suction pump and the pressure at the Carb is more than required. This will always give trouble with carb flooding, leakage and the car will run Rich most of the times.

6) A EFP is actually meant to PUMP fuel, so its always suggested the EFP is always placed just at the Fuel exit of the Fuel Tank.(maybe 1/2 a feet away) Run it through a Fuel filter and then to the Carb. This ensures there is no Flooding of the float tank. (There is a much better setting for the EFP, and is better explained by "BEHRAM DHABHAR sir" )

7) In the ORIGINAL LHD Willys or a CJ3B set-up the exhaust should be on the RHS and the Fuel tank on the LHS, how is it close to the exhaust....?

Why make such a Fuss on a simple engine layout.

I have dealt with many Hurricane engines and Go-Devil engines, few has been running perfectly with the original fuel pump. Similar is my case with other Classics, I always ensure that they run on the Original Fuel Pump rather than EFP.

The pics are related to this topic, What makes you think otherwise.

These both jeeps (1942 Ford and 1944 Willys ) Both with Go-Devil engines run on ORIGINAL Fuel pump and they are running FINE...

The pics are of a Jeep when it was under restoration, so you might not see the Fuel Lines....

What more technical do you want me to get.......? I dont know how to measure the Pressure of the EFP or the Mechanical FP..... You are a TECHNICAL Guy so please explain.....!

About off-roading on the 1944 Willys Left Hand Drive. Well, i have done some Mild testing and looong running. Infact this jeep has done a Road-trip on original settings from Bangalore to Ooty and to Coimbatore in 3 days..... Never faced any issues with the original Fuel pump. nor is it facing now after 4 years of Restoration.

The carb is Solex, not the original Carter.....

The EFP was only used during Start-ups and also as back-up but never for running.

About the Ford with Original Carter Carb, well . You have to wait to see them....

Hope i am clear.
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Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 22nd April 2011 at 14:06.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 13:52   #221
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
Let me get to Technicality and not go further

1) A Well tuned Hurricane / Go-Devil engines DONOT run HOT.

2) The mechanical fuel pump works just perfectly.

3) The Cotton Socks and other Stories are "JUGAAD" and is better avoided.

4) A Electronic Fuel pump ensures a constant supply of Fuel irrespective of the engine rpm, and usually susceptible to failures, leaving us stranded at times.

5) Placing the EFP inside the engine room further aggrevates the Heat dissipated to the EFP. Further the EFP will be working as a suction pump and the pressure at the Carb is more than required. This will always give trouble with carb flooding, leakage and the car will run Rich most of the times.

6) A EFP is actually meant to PUMP fuel, so its always suggested the EFP is always placed just at the Fuel exit of the Fuel Tank.(maybe 1/2 a feet away) Run it through a Fuel filter and then to the Carb. This ensures there is no Flooding of the float tank. (There is a much better setting for the EFP, and is better explained by "BEHRAM DHABHAR sir" )

Why make such a Fuss on a simple engine layout.

I have dealt with many Hurricane engines and Go-Devil engines, few has been running perfectly with the original fuel pump. Similar is my case with other Classics, I always ensure that they run on the Original Fuel Pump rather than EFP.

The pics are related to this topic, What makes you think otherwise.

These both jeeps (1942 Ford and 1944 Willys ) Both with Go-Devil engines run on ORIGINAL Fuel pump and they are running FINE...

Hope i am clear.
Hi Pavan,

You haven't even made a single technical point.

1) What is required for "well" tuned F4-134.
What are the various factors for running hot?

2) Definitely Mechanical Pumps run very well, but please get into technicality, why they run well, what is required for it to run well, rather than making a generic statement.

3) Cotton Socks is simple solution, and can be used in the worst case scenario.

4) How does the EFP "Pump Fuel" Please explain, by really getting into technicality.

5)Have you understood, what we have suggested, to do with the EFP and various other measure.

Is there better air-flow inside the Bonnet in a JEEP or under the Tub?

6) How many of those Hurricanes & Go-Devils have you taken off-road?
If a JEEP is restored, it should be true to its name "Go Anywhere"

7) In the First two set of Pics -- None of the pics have show the Mechanical Fuel Pump, or how to set it service it; the second set I didn't even notice the fuel lines.

Regards,

Arka

PS - In the Third Set of Pics -- Is the Sand Coloured JEEP a Willy MB/Ford GPW, if so it isn't running the "Original Petrol Tank" and isn't the Carb a COLEX? But it is always nice to see the Double Action Fuel Pump.

Last edited by ex670c : 22nd April 2011 at 14:17.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 14:16   #222
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
About off-roading on the 1944 Willys Left Hand Drive. Well, i have done some Mild testing and looong running. Infact this jeep has done a Road-trip on original settings from Bangalore to Ooty and to Coimbatore in 3 days..... Never faced any issues with the original Fuel pump. nor is it facing now after 4 years of Restoration.

The carb is Solex, not the original Carter.....

The EFP was only used during Start-ups and also as back-up but never for running.

About the Ford with Original Carter Carb, well . You have to wait to see them....

Hope i am clear.
Hi Pavan,

In the Pics I can make out the Radiator grille is not Original!!!!

Carb is not Original. (YF538)

Tank is not Original.

Please check the mounting of the Pintle hook looks like it is mounted only on the K-member.

But since this is a restoration project this obviously cannot be a JUGAAD

EFP can even be used for running, if it is used in Tandem, otherwise the chances of the carb overflowing are very high.

The little technical bit I have learnt, I have posted on this thread, some more

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...-cj-3b-14.html (All questions for CJ 3B)

Regards,

Arka

PS - I prefer to do some extensive off-road testing to check if cooling system and fuel system holds up.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 20:19   #223
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

Got the Hulk home today! Cranks beautifully as the starter motor is changed, Runs beautiful! But the FP niggle remains! Stalled twice and had to engage the EFP and run again. I can't be doing that often! I want it to run like how it was running before!

Got to look for a OE vacuum pump or get one from the US!

Hoping to run the Hulk without any Jugaads!
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Old 22nd April 2011, 22:30   #224
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

Wow so much of heat over an overheating fuel pump.

Let me share what i know. There is nothing like OE mechanical fuel pump, "as long as it works". Its like the oil pump of the RD, matches the need of the engine with regards to the RPM. So the carb is happy and no chance of any leaks, overflows etc at carb end.

Now comes the reality, these mechanical pumps work with diaphragms action. So they wear out over a period of time. Action weakens. Parts are often difficult to find also. So the modern day electronic fuel pump, which is nothing but a electrical version of the same old fuel pump. Issue with these are they have only ON or OFF position. So even when fuel needs are less, they keep on pumping at max. Modern carbs with which these electric pumps were equipped, rather came with, had fuel return line from the carb. Basically this line takes care off the excess fuel once the carb chamber is full and returns it to the tank.

Unfortunately the old school carbs like Carter and Solex does not have these fuel return lines. So when we run the electronic pumps continuously there are chances that the carb would flood or carb would leak at the packing due to the excess pressure at the fuel lines. Solution to this is provided in one of the pages in my DwArF thread by BD, little technical but definitely doable with little bit of patience. DKG also has installed this set up in his CJ3B.

So what about the heating part of these engines and state of tune. As long as you are moving at about 40-50 kmph, there might not be any issue. Moment it gets to high revs and slow speeds (typical offroad situation or say city drive) problems crop up, especially if its an older mechanical pump. This socks thing is nothing new, umpteen Amby, Fiat, Standard owners have done this many a times to get out of sticky spots. Summer is a pain and i have seen such issue crop up only in summer, especially in a place like BLR.

Regarding location of the electronic pump, i definitely go with positioning near to the fuel tank away from engine heat. Two reasons 1) They are "push type", basically they push the fuel from tank to engine side. The gravity flow from tank is most critical for them to work well and long, once the fuel fills the pump, the pump takes care of pushing the fuel (they push fuel at a larger rate also, compared to mech pumps). On the other hand the pull type pump (mechanical pump) have the capability to suck the fuel towards it and then pumps at a low pressure towards the engine. 2) Heat- Similar to mechanical pump these also have rubber diaphragms inside and heat does take a toll. Engine bay is definitely hotter compared to underbody. Even if the silencer piper is close. Its open space with good air flow. More over enough space to place the fuel line and pump at good distance from the pipe. On the other hand engine bay is crowded by a hot engine, wires, exhaust and fuel lines. Things going wrong in case of a leak in more inside the bay than underneath.

In Shubz case his engine has not been run-in, it will be hotter and pump also will heat up faster and cause all such issues. Easiest solution is to keep the AUX electric pump handy and use it as and when required.

Best long term solution, which i also have in mind and successfully delaying for long time, is to go full time electric pump, with return lines. Fortunately i have the diesel CJ tank so it has provision for return line also. Just need to sort out the return line and maybe a pressure valve set up for the return line. Another important thing i had in mind was re routing fuel lines as far as possible, away from the hot engine parts. This is another issue with hurricane, line runs around the engine and heats up the fuel inside. Once it becomes vapor it gives all sorts of issues, especially for a real HOT start up

Sorry for the long post but these are part of my research paper for having a fool proof hurricane engine he he he

Now another part i realized recently, the old carb design per say. These are like bike carbs with a chamber and parts around it. Thickness of chamber wall is quarter of an inch and then engine heat. Compare this to more modern carb designs, thick walls, many layers of parts around with the chamber, far more separated from the engine heat and hence more reliable for hot conditions.

Last edited by Jaggu : 22nd April 2011 at 23:23. Reason: Lil bit of typos
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Old 22nd April 2011, 22:41   #225
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Default Re: I found The Hulk - WILLYS CJ3B

I am not allowed to use the "T" word here as we now have a new feature!

So I will do the following.

1) Wait for the engine to run in - 1000 kms of neighborhood driving. Drive to the chai shop. Drive to get sabzi. Drive around the ring road when I have nothing else to do etc. While doing so, will keep actuating the EFP when the AC Pump stutters/chokes.

2) Will keep a bottle of normal water, an old pair of cotton socks and some cotton waste (good quality) handy for the "wet socks" experiment.

3) shop around for a good OE Vacuum pump as this seems to be at its EOL. Hoping someone comes around and says "hey I found a AC Pump for you" else

eBay --
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