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Old 7th October 2010, 12:55   #16
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A person posting 2 posts up in this thread was told this by the dealer. So the dealer is giving wrong information...
Few posts above that, there is a quoted text mentioning the response to this specific query from TML customer care, which you failed to notice.

And, as for ''dealer is giving wrong information'' question - lost as to what respone to give!

Would have understood if a n00b as this, but you!
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Old 7th October 2010, 12:56   #17
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I reckon its the same useless logic they have to make ABS/Airbags available on the top end version of cars. stupid marketing departments

or smart ones like this:
Quote:
Look at it this way - a person interested in a 4x4 WILL stretch (do whatever it takes) to cough up the extra 1L and go in for a EX.
#facepalm

I'd read this along with shankar's thread - why should we not get compact 4x4 SUVs in the 4-7L range? Same big picture I see emerging - money.
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Old 7th October 2010, 13:00   #18
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Originally Posted by HappyWheels View Post
Few posts above that, there is a quoted text mentioning the response to this specific query from TML customer care, which you failed to notice.

And, as for ''dealer is giving wrong information'' question - lost as to what respone to give!

Would have understood if a n00b as this, but you!
I have not failed to notice it. If you read my latest posts you would realize that my question now is that why no LX 4x4 from Tata and no bottom end scorpio 4x4 from Mahindra. 1 L is a lot of money. A person already shells close to 1L for 4x4, and then because of this EX restriction the money becomes 1+1 = 2 Lakhs extra! so people are forced to buy roof AC/body colored cladding etc, just for a 4x4
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
I reckon its the same useless logic they have to make ABS/Airbags available on the top end version of cars. stupid marketing departments

or smart ones like this:

#facepalm

I'd read this along with shankar's thread - why should we not get compact 4x4 SUVs in the 4-7L range? Same big picture I see emerging - money.
Well ABS and Airbags is question for another thread!
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Old 7th October 2010, 13:07   #19
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Your argument can be both ways. Many people with 1 lakh budget stretch limit actually bought a LX 4x2 instead of EX 4x4
BTW, LX 4x2 and EX 4x4 differ by close to 2 Lakhs on road (at least in Bangalore).

Let me elaborate further on my previous point...

Segment A - Wants a 4x4 but since LX does not have it, goes in for EX since can afford the extra 2L somehow. Extra money made by TML = INR (2*A) Lakhs

Segment B - Wants a 4x4 but since cannot afford the extra 2L, goes in for the LX. Money lost by TML = INR (2*B) lakhs

Segment C - Not at all interested in a 4x4 and hence will do with LX (assuming not interested in colored bumpers/extra AC/immobilizer)

My understanding is that C > A > B. Please note that this is strictly my understanding/opinion. Also, please note that I am not at all considering higher variants (GX and VX).
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Old 7th October 2010, 13:11   #20
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I think Cool_Dube has made the right observation about milking the enthusiasts and letting the non-enthusiasts have a bare one. (refering to his earlier post; not the one above. )

Some people (or is it most) view a vehicle as something that would take them from point A to B. Preferences change as to how much comfort is required when they do this.

But for the enthusiast, (s)he knows as to what is needed. So, if that is met, they look at other features that car companies add as nice to have or rather, reasons for the high price difference from the other variant.

My reason stems from people with whom I have interacted. Of late I noticed a rise in Safari's in my previous company's parking. All new. All LX. Talk to the owner and they had one requirement in common - a very comfortable drive. None of they were bothered about 4x4 or such. Or for that matter the immobilizer - autocop to the rescue(sic!).

But for me, I wanted at the minimum ABS. During the initial days, (when GX not available) only option was VX. Since VX pushed my budget, was going to settle for 4x2 even though 4x4 was what I would have loved to have. Fortunately for me, GX came in the way, and within the stretched budget, I got GX 4x4. I also needed the immobilizer, which is there. The cladding, central a/c, reverse sensors, alloy wheels and such were never thought about.

Last edited by HappyWheels : 7th October 2010 at 13:14.
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Old 7th October 2010, 13:24   #21
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I hate this dirty policy of all Jeep/ SUV manufacturers ref 4x4 and Safety features.
I also hate their policy of not offering a range of colours across variants. With the technology available today, the consumer should be able to literally customize the colour he/ she wants - I wish they would take a page from Reva's book - 30000 shades to choose from!!

Indeed on several other threads I have mentioned exactly this. And die hard 4x4 people like 4x4 addict have endorsed this view.

Safety features should be offered as standard to consumers on all variants of the SUV's / Jeeps' under consideration. Regardless of the level of trim. They have NO RIGHT to make safety an "option".

And while 4WD is a desirable, it is not an absolute essential on any jeep/ SUV type vehicle - hence this can be made atleast an OPTION, regardless of the level of trim that the consumer desires.

Personally I attach ZERO VALUE to all the foolish frills and fiddlybits offered on the so-called TOP-END variants of vehicles like Scorpio and Safari. Sheer Rubbish, most of it. And the quality/ reliability of their electronics are not upto scratch in my opinion - I simply dont trust them.

Since I am only interested in the functional stuff like 4WD and Safety features, why cant they then give me my Scorpio Basic Standard LX without any extra fiddlies except for 4WD and all Safety features like Airbags, ABS, EBD etc?
I would pay and buy!!

Otherwise I shall have to just bide my time and await the next set of SUV's that land up in the market.

Possibly the smaller ones like the Sandero and Koleos and someday if all goes well the Rav4 type.
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Old 7th October 2010, 13:31   #22
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Could be:

Having more versions at the lower end of the spectrum, with effective prices tending towards the higher end versions, cannibalize the sales of the higher end versions. Now, that should not be a problem where overall numbers are concerned, but given that the company makes more money off the Higher end versions than the Lower end versions (aka Margin), the net operating margin for the model would reduce, if they were to offer 4x4's on the lower end of the spectrum. So they figure that an enthusiast would still go in and buy the premium version 4x4, because he does not have an option, and the company gets to make the same margin.

The other consideration for intentionally wanting to keep 4x4 sales down, by it's market positioning, may be to do with the capability of the service network. They may not want to invest effort and money into enabling more people in the service centres to have the ability to support 4x4's.

Add to that the risk to the company's bottomline due to increased issues happening during the warranty period, w.r.t. the 4x4 mechanism.

All these could be motivations to limit the sales of 4x4's to the enthusiast / premium community only.
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Old 7th October 2010, 14:47   #23
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4X4 are not much in demand by general public. Apart from Team-BHP or motoring enthusiast fraternity there is not much demand for 4X4. This is reality and any manufacturer would not keep idle its expensive assembly line for the product which are not in demand.

There are negligible percentage of person inquire about 4X4 Safari. I am sure many of present or future Safari owners even not aware of the fact that Safari comes in 4X4.

I saw many Mahindra 4X4 jeeps in which 4X4 gears were never engaged during lifetime. It's all about awareness, knowledge and skill.

Above inputs suggest that 4X4 is not business value proposition as per current market demand. Those even want 4X4 for them there is one option (although tough one) i.e higher end only.
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Old 7th October 2010, 15:04   #24
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verbatim. Demand is dictated by market and suppliers satisfy the demand. There are many instances where in the manufacturer has pulled the plug on non-selling models. 4x4 case is same.
I don't see the point of this thread or the discussion going any where else.
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Originally Posted by anujmishra View Post
4X4 are not much in demand by general public. Apart from Team-BHP or motoring enthusiast fraternity there is not much demand for 4X4. This is reality and any manufacturer would not keep idle its expensive assembly line for the product which are not in demand.

There are negligible percentage of person inquire about 4X4 Safari. I am sure many of present or future Safari owners even not aware of the fact that Safari comes in 4X4.

I saw many Mahindra 4X4 jeeps in which 4X4 gears were never engaged during lifetime. It's all about awareness, knowledge and skill.

Above inputs suggest that 4X4 is not business value proposition as per current market demand. Those even want 4X4 for them there is one option (although tough one) i.e higher end only.
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Old 7th October 2010, 15:14   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anujmishra View Post
4X4 are not much in demand by general public. Apart from Team-BHP or motoring enthusiast fraternity there is not much demand for 4X4. This is reality and any manufacturer would not keep idle its expensive assembly line for the product which are not in demand.

There are negligible percentage of person inquire about 4X4 Safari. I am sure many of present or future Safari owners even not aware of the fact that Safari comes in 4X4.

I saw many Mahindra 4X4 jeeps in which 4X4 gears were never engaged during lifetime. It's all about awareness, knowledge and skill.

Above inputs suggest that 4X4 is not business value proposition as per current market demand. Those even want 4X4 for them there is one option (although tough one) i.e higher end only.
That is restating the statistics and completely skirting the real question - Agreed that is the case, why offer performance options (4x4) only in the higher/top variants?

If it is an option, why give it only to the top end - by restating the facts, you don't make the connection. sorry boss.
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Old 7th October 2010, 15:16   #26
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verbatim. Demand is dictated by market and suppliers satisfy the demand. There are many instances where in the manufacturer has pulled the plug on non-selling models. 4x4 case is same.
I don't see the point of this thread or the discussion going any where else.
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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
That is restating the statistics and completely skirting the real question - Agreed that is the case, why offer performance options (4x4) only in the higher/top variants?

If it is an option, why give it only to the top end - by restating the facts, you don't make the connection. sorry boss.
As Phamlyman says, if its a low selling variant, why offer it at all,
Currently 4x4 is offered in the top end variant only.
Now as diabloo says, mfr pulls the plug on low selling variants.
High end variants with 4x4 do not sell more then low end variants if they had 4x4. So a mfr should not offer 4x4 even in high end variants, if number of sales is anything to go by!
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Old 7th October 2010, 15:44   #27
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
As Phamlyman says, if its a low selling variant, why offer it at all,
Currently 4x4 is offered in the top end variant only.
Now as diabloo says, mfr pulls the plug on low selling variants.
High end variants with 4x4 do not sell more then low end variants if they had 4x4. So a mfr should not offer 4x4 even in high end variants, if number of sales is anything to go by!
Let me distort this discussion further by saying -

IMO ~ Its done for brand building and making a quick buck.

1) Brand Building cause these companies can market their products as tough and capable of doing off roading. So you have events like the MGEs and the Toyota Fortuner offroad events to show their toughness.

This is why they have a 4x4 variant and neither Mahindra nor Tata would discontinue it so quickly.

Fortuner also does not need to be sold just as a AWD, what percentage of Fortuner owners have actually used the true potential of their AWDs?

2) Maximize profit. Giving the 4x4 variant in entry level trim would increase the 4x4 sales a bit however it would cause issues for companies for their production planning. Right now if I understand right - both the Safari and Scorpio are made to order?

Switching to add the 4x4 components to the production line will cost them time and money.

The Auto companies logic is if a customer really wants a 4x4 let him shell out that extra 2 - 2.5L (including the trim difference).

They will then slip in a few 4x4s into the production line and make some quick profits.
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Old 7th October 2010, 15:48   #28
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Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
2) Maximize profit. Giving the 4x4 variant in entry level trim would increase the 4x4 sales a bit however it would cause issues for companies for their production planning. Right now if I understand right - both the Safari and Scorpio are made to order?
as per https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...s-figures.html


Mahindra Scorpio : 4001
and
Tata Safari : 1541


I don't think its a made to order system.
But I may be wrong as I don't have additional information.
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Old 7th October 2010, 16:17   #29
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I guess we are digressing from the topic.
LX 4x4 will make safari 4x4 more affordable, but somehow tata makes that for defence and export, but does not sell in in India. What could be the reason.
The answer to that question cannot be found
Tanveer as I said LX 4X4 was available from TML to civilians, just that dealers get least of margins out of it so they simply mention that its not available. Though TML never publicized it and its not there even on there site. But a little pressure and few mails to TML top shots could have ensured LX 4X4, it was only available on demand

They stopped LX 4X4 recently, couple of months back

Last edited by rkbharat : 7th October 2010 at 16:19.
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Old 7th October 2010, 16:18   #30
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Yes, both Tata Safari 4x4 and Scorpio 4x4 are made to order.
The 4x2s are not made to order.
SO I kind of agree with IronWolf.
They may intentionally want to restrict sales of 4x4, so that their supply chain is not disrupted.

That said, what if the said MFR is making fixed numbers every month for army/export. In that case this will not hold, as additional numbers from consumers will mean additional numbers on that pipeline!
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