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Old 7th October 2010, 16:40   #31
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As a rule of thumb via retailer point of view - the thing which sells should be on shelf, other things can be off-shelf and can be procured on-demand only. Dealers do not want to choke their money in slow moving inventory.

In India where-in a buyer seems to be spending excess if he demands for ABS and airbags, 4x4 seems to be a luxury feature.
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Old 7th October 2010, 16:41   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkbharat View Post
.......... Though TML never publicized it and its not there even on there site. But a little pressure and few mails to TML top shots could have ensured LX 4X4, it was only available on demand
Sorry TML? Military canteen?

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
..SO I kind of agree with IronWolf.
They may intentionally want to restrict sales of 4x4, so that their supply chain is not disrupted.

That said, what if the said MFR is making fixed numbers every month for army/export. In that case this will not hold, as additional numbers from consumers will mean additional numbers on that pipeline!
The Scorps and Safaris are not really used by the Army. These are the main ones sold in high end trim.

Even for the Army MM550 production, a systematically production run is done based on Army demand for that period.

If our country can guarantee even and high enough 4x4 demand for a particular vehicle, then we can see waiting periods coming down, more variants and most importantly More reasonably priced 4x4 variants.

1L+ more just for the 4x4 option is just plain
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Old 7th October 2010, 19:43   #33
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Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Sorry TML? Military canteen?
Oh God Dan! TML --> Tata Motors Limited.

But on a serious thought about this thread, i don't understand this concept/logic at all.
This is something i've been stressing upon in every possible thread which is related to this discussion. I don't understand why the customers are forced to buy top-end models if they would want to buy a 4X4.
I've tried everything possible to get myself a 4X4 Scorpio in the Sle variant but all in vain. Infact, after a few repeated requests, the mail starts going unanswered. This was the case last year with M&M.
Would fleecing a few thousands/lakhs from those small number of 4X4 customers make such a big difference?
Would they not make more profits by pricing it competitively and increasing the sales in volume?
Just my thoughts Tanveer. Hope, your thread is read by some big names in Tata & M&M and work towards improving the situation.
Cheers,
Deepak

Last edited by starter : 7th October 2010 at 19:45.
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Old 7th October 2010, 20:59   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post

If our country can guarantee even and high enough 4x4 demand for a particular vehicle, then we can see waiting periods coming down, more variants and most importantly More reasonably priced 4x4 variants.

1L+ more just for the 4x4 option is just plain
This reminds me of the classic egg or chicken scenario. You say let demand be more consistent for 4x4's then car companies will offer more choices. The jest of this whole thread discussion is trying to say, if car companies offer variety, ease of accessibility and flexibility in 4x4 models then demand will probably pick up.
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Old 7th October 2010, 21:38   #35
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Originally Posted by starter View Post
... thread is read by some big names in Tata & M&M and work towards improving the situation...
Not sure about TML, but don't we have some senior M&M names here? Hopefully they, along with the large M&M followers here, might be able to do some improvement to the situation.
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Old 7th October 2010, 21:40   #36
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At some time I was keen on getting either Safari or Scorpio in 4x4 guise. Went to the market & it became clear that both are available with 4x4 in top end variants.
Now, the loaded versions with 4x4 were were atleast 2L dearer than corresponding base variants. Also, I wanted my 4x4 to have essential features only because while going off-road, vanity/luxury features either fall-off or fail.

Its shear irony that Auto companies decide to fleece the 4x4 community by not offering 4x4 in base variants. I totally hold Tata & Mahindra responsible for this.

Now, the scene has progressed to worse. Scorpio 4x4 in VLX is a shear wastage imo. Atleast I will fear it taking off-road with so much useless gadgetry & vanity features.
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Old 7th October 2010, 22:02   #37
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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
At some time I was keen on getting either Safari or Scorpio in 4x4 guise. Went to the market & it became clear that both are available with 4x4 in top end variants...
When did Safari NOT come with the 4x4 in the EX? EX is the mid variant.

And as RKB mentioned, the base variant was also available on order in 4x4. So the argument that "only top end" does not hold true for the Safari.
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Old 7th October 2010, 23:45   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Sorry TML? Military canteen?



The Scorps and Safaris are not really used by the Army. These are the main ones sold in high end trim.

Even for the Army MM550 production, a systematically production run is done based on Army demand for that period.

Safari is used by Indian Army in UN operations.

if you want i can post a photo!
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Old 8th October 2010, 09:51   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyWheels View Post
And as RKB mentioned, the base variant was also available on order in 4x4. So the argument that "only top end" does not hold true for the Safari.
HW, I seriously doubt the availability of the LX at any time in the near past in 4X4 versions. I was looking at the Safari LX as you know for quite some time then and had done quite some research on the topic.
Moreover, I haven't seen a single example of the same anywhere. TASS, roads, North India, South India, defense areas...the list goes on and on.

The EX, of course, was available in the 4X4 version as was the Scorpio CRDe and the 2.6 Turbo in the DX version earlier.

LXs of either manufacturers never had the 4X4 variants AFAIK.

I need to see a pic of it to believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
Safari is used by Indian Army in UN operations.
if you want i can post a photo!
Parm is right, a few Safari 4X4 VXs are used by the UNPK Forces from India.
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Old 8th October 2010, 09:53   #40
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I have seen Border roads organization use Safari 4x4 for high ranking officers. As for LX 4x4, I have not seen a single LX 4x4 till date in the 2.2 avatar
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Old 8th October 2010, 10:47   #41
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The LX 4x4 was available for the general public in the very initial stages of the 3.0 litre version....I'm not sure about the 2.2 version though
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Old 8th October 2010, 12:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
...Moreover, I haven't seen a single example of the same anywhere. TASS, roads, North India, South India, defense areas...the list goes on and on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
... As for LX 4x4, I have not seen a single LX 4x4 till date in the 2.2 avatar
Add me to the same list.
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Old 8th October 2010, 13:55   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starter View Post
Oh God Dan! TML --> Tata Motors Limited.
Oops, not sure why that did not click in my tiny brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starter View Post
Would they not make more profits by pricing it competitively and increasing the sales in volume?
..
Hope, your thread is read by some big names in Tata & M&M and work towards improving the situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amrisharm View Post
........... if car companies offer variety, ease of accessibility and flexibility in 4x4 models then demand will probably pick up.
Deepak & Amrisharm, I'm afraid that is not going to happen. Lowering the cost or offering the 4x4s in lower trim will not increase the 4WD versions sales drastically.

Both the Tata and MM believe this so dont expect much. I am even speculating that MM will be stopping the Scorpio 4x4 variant shortly once few of its new products hit the market. Scorpio Getaway 4x4 will continue as they export it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyWheels View Post
Not sure about TML, but don't we have some senior M&M names here? Hopefully they, along with the large M&M followers here, might be able to do some improvement to the situation.
MM is trying to improve the situation with the ..... well am not going to say that word and get slammed for it. Let it be released. "Shortly..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Also, I wanted my 4x4 to have essential features only because while going off-road, vanity/luxury features either fall-off or fail.
Even the Essential features fail. Case in point - Scorpio 4WD: Electronic Transfer Case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
Safari is used by Indian Army in UN operations.

if you want i can post a photo!
This I did not know. Please do share the pic as it is part of the Topic.

Full white with UN on it I assume

Last edited by IronWolf : 8th October 2010 at 13:59.
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Old 8th October 2010, 14:27   #44
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Its a decision taken by the Marketing team.

They are the ones who predict the volumes per month For ex, how much to produce in the month of March (budget), Diwali (navratras etc) and any new refresh etc.

Monthly they provide the numbers to the Production Floor team on the number of particular vehicles to be made so that shifts can be planned.

In order to optimize sales of 4x4 and AT, (since they both sell in quite less numbers) these Marketing Managers plan for these features to be given in Top End model only, so that a person asking for these features will get one model with all the bells and whistles.

As the logic of 4x4 is being debated, similar topic can be debated on AT transmission too (why the top end model gets it? Why not Scorpio LX AT ?)
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Old 8th October 2010, 15:06   #45
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I see three reasons.

1. Lets as fleece the customer and maximise profit , Except Scorpio and Safari there is no decent 4X4 available under 15Lakhs. A 4X4 top end variant buyer is usually one who has no other option then to purchase some MNC brand 4X4 but budget is tight so he still sees 4X4 top end variant as VFM.
This may not be correct but that is how marketing department thinks.


2. Safari has 7 variants as of now ,Supply chain and inventory management becomes complex as variants increase.
LX 4X4 means one more variant to manage. So why not knock off the one which is least profitable specially when knocking off the model means customer will pay more.

3. Lack of information about 4X4 among normal buyers.
believe it or not when I purchased Safari I was compleatly unaware about 4X4,
I tired becoming member of T-BHP just before purchasing but that member ship request was not approved multiple times. By the time I was hooked up here and read about 4X4 I had already made my purchase in most cost effective manner , that is LX 4X2 in all cash deal LOL , I even had 2 lakhs to spare at that time but since an LX 2X2 was giving me all I needed I never bothered about EX and VX

I had no prior experience of driving 4X4 so was simply unaware what 4X4 can do, My eyes opened only after I drove a 4X4 LX 3.0 Liter Safari on mud dunes for a day. Now if I have to buy again after this experience I would even taken 2-3 lakhs loan to go for VX 4X4 if that is the only option.
Marketing people know this very well so they are offering 4X4 only in costly variants.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
The Scorps and Safaris are not really used by the Army. These are the main ones sold in high end trim.
I have pictures of a bullet proof Safari 4X4 which came for service at concord. It was for use of some high ranking defense official.

There were no Army markings and the vehicle was perfect for blending in the normal traffic.
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