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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:13   #61
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Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
This (Thar MDI/MM550MDI) is a marketing trick.
101% It is a marketing gimmic!

All i am saying is from a 4x4 enthusiast who will look at Thar as a niche vehicle, this move is a big downer! Maybe there are others who do not care, but i would have. Again my previous point, this is terrific excuse to milk money from both MM550 and Thar buyers!

Anyways as you said at the end of the day, most customer friendly or not, companies will do whatever it is required to do. To rake in numbers! That's it!

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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:19   #62
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Non-enthusiasts won't care whether MDi is called Thar or not. They would for sure know that its the same 550 with DI engine.
Whereas enthusiasts are such a small lot & due to lack of choice, buy whatever is thrown at them. Now even if Thar were to be called 550, they really won't care much. So, there's not much to the naming!
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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:28   #63
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Call me stubborn but i would not have called it Thar! if not for this Thread! Period! If Esteem and Maruti 1000 could co-exist and clearly be differentiated by the market, i dont see any reason why MM550 and Thar remain separate!

I dont want my cousin from Kerala come and make fun that i am running an estate vehicle. .
This is purely how anindividual thinks. Maruti 1000 and esteem examples are almost 2 decades old. You will agree Maruti 1000 was discontinued soon after Esteem arrived. Also another Maruti example- Maruti Gypsy with 1000 cc existed for about an year or so with Gypsy king. When Gypsy 1.3 was introduced it was still called a Gypsy and not Jimny.

If people were so shy of being bullied by a lower varient cousin then Bolero's market would have ended the moment Mahindra pick ups were called Bolero pick ups. Market of overall Bolero brand improved in turn as both segments (lower & higher) aspired for a Bolero.

I believe the premiumness of the brand lies in the minds of the consumers. A plain Bolero Di guy knows what he is driving and always looks up to Bolero Storm owner.

I think there is no right or wrong answer to this. Purely depends how one thinks.


ps- If one still thinks this is a marketing gimmick, then so it be. We are here to market & sell :-)) lol

Last edited by vinod_nookala : 2nd December 2010 at 19:38.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:35   #64
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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Whereas enthusiasts are such a small lot & due to lack of choice, buy whatever is thrown at them.
Enthusiast might not but most enthusiast will NOT be buying because they are bankrupt because of their enthusiasm, like me . Not really i have other plans right now

Many Thar (now we have to define this clearly!!! Thar = Crde 4x4) buyers will be mostly up-market yuppie's and wanna be offroaders who can really afford it. That is where the issue starts.

First off all launching same body shell is a big risk, for one of the variant. In this case the stronger market of 550 will flourish and Crde buyer will have all the dilemma's. Then again its a business decision, nothing to do with enthusiast.

Maybe to justify production and numbers in the first place, they need to do this. Am sure some MBA would have definitely done a report and presented.

Maybe NOT, it might be just a move to make more money/margin/profit/sales chart!

Let's wait for the pricing of both, then things will be very clear!


EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
This is purely how anindividual thinks. Maruti 1000 and esteem examples are almost 2 decades old. You will agree Maruti 1000 was discontinued soon after Esteem arrived. Also another Maruti example- Maruti Gypsy with 1000 cc existed for about an year or so with Gypsy king. When Gypsy 1.3 was introduced it was still called a Gypsy and not Jimny.

If people were so shy of being bullied by a lower varient cousin then Bolero's market would have ended the moment Mahindra pick ups were called Bolero pick ups. Market of overall Bolero brand improved in turn as both segments (lower & higher) aspired for a Bolero.

I believe the premiumness of the brand lies in the minds of the consumers. A plain Bolero Di guy knows what he is driving and always looks up to Bolero Storm owner.

I think there is no right or wrong answer to this. Purely depends how one thinks.
Sorry but facts are not entirely correct, Esteem and 1000 existed for around 2 years. Yes it was very low sales and emission that killed the 1000 model. Here stronger group was urban buyer who preferred Esteem over 1000. As i said one group will suffer in my hypothesis.

Gypsy does not come into the picture at all, it was mainly driven by sales to Govt agencies and then again, the emissions killed it. IIRC 1000 cc Gypsy was stopped and King was launched, i dont remember them selling together. This am not sure though. Wide body came with 1000 and then moved to esteem which is king, that everyone knows.

What is the sales number of Bolero's? EDIT oops Bolero storm

As i said am just giving you an urban user perspective, i know many agree to this, no hard feeling if M&M does not agree. BD knows coz this was one of the concerns raised during discussion at Avalaconda. A company would have invested wisely in market research before taking such decisions. All the very best to them.

Last edited by Jaggu : 2nd December 2010 at 19:46.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:46   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Many Thar (now we have to define this clearly!!! Thar = Crde 4x4) buyers will be mostly up-market yuppie's and wanna be offroaders who can really afford it.
The "up-market" yuppies always had the choice of Gypsy, Mahindra customized Jeeps, etc. but won't they be happier training their guns on SUV's instead.

Quote:
In this case the stronger market of 550 will flourish and Crde buyer will have all the dilemma's
Market will always be stronger for the cheaper version.

Quote:
Let's wait for the pricing of both, then things will be very clear!
In such a case, I expect the price difference among the two to be - HUGE.
Also looking at the difference between Bolero Di & CRDe pricing, things become clearer.

Last edited by AWD : 2nd December 2010 at 19:48.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:52   #66
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Originally Posted by AWD View Post
The "up-market" yuppies always had the choice of Gypsy, Mahindra customized Jeeps, etc. but won't they be happier training their guns on SUV's instead.
Not really, Gypsy is not comfortable like a 550 and its a petrol. Custom jobs are horrendously expensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Market will always be stronger for the cheaper version.
Nope, what happened to 1000 then when Esteem was launched, esteem was close to a lakh higher and that time lakh was a BIG amount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
In such a case, I expect the price difference among the two - HUGE.
Also looking at the difference between Bolero Di & CRDe, things become clearer.
This is the where things start getting messy and hence my point of making money from all the Thar stories flying around for years. A good marketeer will not let go his efforts, even if it was planned or not. All he needs is a good story and a famous name.

Sell it to farmer saying its a Thaaaaaaaaar saaaaaaar.

Sell it to a Yuppie saying its a Crde, IFS and a potent off-roading Thar, its the in thing dudeee.

Either ways win win!
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Old 2nd December 2010, 19:52   #67
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Well the MDI is going to be a big hit in Coorg once again, many have missed the 540 with an factroy fitted DI turbo,


Quote:
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The "up-market" yuppies always had the choice of Gypsy, Mahindra customized Jeeps, etc. but won't they be happier training their guns on SUV's instead.



Market will always be stronger for the cheaper version.



In such a case, I expect the price difference among the two to be - HUGE.
Also looking at the difference between Bolero Di & CRDe pricing, things become clearer.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 20:06   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Gypsy is not comfortable like a 550 and its a petrol. Custom jobs are horrendously expensive
We were talking of "up-market urban yuppies", they would be happy paying for petrol. 550 wasn't much comfy than the Gypsy, Gypsy still has better ergonomincs, better plastics & superb finish.

Quote:
Nope, what happened to 1000 then when Esteem was launched, esteem was close to a lakh higher and that time lakh was a BIG amount.
The reasons were different, 1000 had poor A.C. performance & lost breath on inclines. While Di Bolero has done great.

Quote:
Sell it to farmer saying its a Thaaaaaaaaar saaaaaaar.
Sell it to a Yuppie saying its a Crde, IFS and a potent off-roading Thar, its the in thing dudeee.
Name won't matter much to the farmer, rather he will have greater respect for the 550 name because rural India has seen its potential. Still he will know that Thar is the same old Jeep with Bolero engine(Di).

Yuppie will buy it sans the Thar tag too, he knows he can get that emblem made & stick it at the back!

There's nothing much to the name, the product has to have substance to sell & that applies to both variants. India wants VFM!
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Old 2nd December 2010, 20:30   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Maybe to justify production and numbers in the first place, they need to do this. Am sure some MBA would have definitely done a report and presented.
But will that MBA dude know the difference between MDi and CDRe version other than by price? Within M&M there are very few people who understand 4x4 and the offroading culture. Heck, Vinod might be the only person in M&M marketing who understands 4x4 world.

When they think enthusiast market, they think bling-bling output from Mahindra customization department. Therefore, what kind of analysis they may have done, I really wonder.

May be Behram/Vinod should take all the M&M MBA dudes to some real offroading trail and make them drive. Right now all they do is flag off and watch from the passenger seat of Scorpios in 2WD trails of MGE. After that, may be, just may be they understand the passion behind offroading.

Remember, you need to teach everything to MBA types.

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Old 2nd December 2010, 20:52   #70
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A couple of weeks back, there was an Auto Expo in Cal. MM was displaying some of their vehicles in a simulated OTR environment. And they were giving rides!

The chosen vehicle was this one I think (Vinod can confirm), except that it was then called the Legend.

The people there could not answer a SINGLE question except one (saying the concerned person will be coming soon. He never did in over 1.5 hrs).
The one question answered: price ~ 4.5L (Was not sure whether for 2x4, or 4x4. The displayed/ working vehicle was 4x4).

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Old 2nd December 2010, 20:54   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
What chassis does this have, same as Major? We know Thar is supposed to have Scorpio chassis.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
AFAIK this will not come in 4x4 to keep it from eating into Thar territory.
4x4 option available.

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Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
i will contact our Mahindra dealer for more info.
I doubt if he will know anything.

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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Hey Guys: Expected on-road price in Bangalore for the 4x4 variant is 6.25L.

There will be a 4x4 variant in this one too, as confirmed to me. I also hear that the 4.88 ratio will be made available by Mahindra as a true off road in house upgrade for enthusiasts like us who want that little bit more crawl!
Incorrect, not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Guys,
THAR Di is the answer to every one's wish of a plain, simple, reliable and effective workhorse that Team Bhpians and off road traditionalists wanted- This includes myself !!
I hope your boss doesn't read this LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
How loud is the MDi engine when compared to the CRDe engine?
One resembles Helen, other Mallika

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Originally Posted by pjbiju View Post
Or is this BSIV compliant?
BS-III only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
But will that MBA dude know the difference between MDi and CDRe version other than by price? Within M&M there are very few people who understand 4x4 and the offroading culture. Heck, Vinod might be the only person in M&M marketing who understands 4x4 world.

When they think enthusiast market, they think bling-bling output from Mahindra customization department. Therefore, what kind of analysis they may have done, I really wonder.
So true, really, words of wisdom.

Spike

Last edited by SPIKE ARRESTOR : 2nd December 2010 at 20:59.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 21:26   #72
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One more thread on THAR but this time 550 with MDi Engine! or Legend with new dash and without borg warner transfer case !

I think this Jeep is for the rural market those who want a jeep with door (No other option is available ) and should be able to drive on road (At least can over take tata ace and ape auto may be maruthi Alto !! (Those rules roads in kerala)

How many of we really going to buy a thar MDi 4x4? and for what reason ?
Are you ready to sell your 550s? (Thar MDi will bring down the market price of 550)

I think for off roading a CJ500 4WD is enough for a good driver(real life situations).Then comes the 540/550 they are the best for off the road and on the road but again how many of we using a jeep as daily vehicle ? but there are peoples who uses jeep as their daily use vehicles and uses them as their partner, for them it really a nice buy(so the price will be under 6L on road) .For youngsters Thar Mdi 4x4 is the best to start with ! again they need PS & AC.

For me I need a Jeep(For daily use & off road), which can take me wherever I need to go with comfort (AC,Hard top, but ok without it),
should be able to reach 120- 140km/h and 0-100 in around 14 - 17 sec, and should stop without worry when I break,and ofcourse a LSD.

Vinod ,Behram sir, I believe The Real Thar Can satisfy all this but when ? do we need to wait another 6 month or a year for the D Day ?

Last edited by sreejeshmp : 2nd December 2010 at 21:27.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 22:42   #73
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Originally Posted by CJ3b View Post
Well the MDI is going to be a big hit in Coorg once again, many have missed the 540 with an factroy fitted DI turbo,
Not only coorg many hilly area's including that of kerala will be a HUGE market. Then the rural heartlands of India. Definitely many are looking forward and there exist a good market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
We were talking of "up-market urban yuppies", they would be happy paying for petrol. 550 wasn't much comfy than the Gypsy, Gypsy still has better ergonomincs, better plastics & superb finish.

The reasons were different, 1000 had poor A.C. performance & lost breath on inclines. While Di Bolero has done great.

Name won't matter much to the farmer, rather he will have greater respect for the 550 name because rural India has seen its potential. Still he will know that Thar is the same old Jeep with Bolero engine(Di).

Yuppie will buy it sans the Thar tag too, he knows he can get that emblem made & stick it at the back!

There's nothing much to the name, the product has to have substance to sell & that applies to both variants. India wants VFM!
I have used Gypsy as a personal vehicle, for that matter it was my first own vehicle and i can guarantee you that it is nowhere close to MM's on ride aspect. Yes i have driven, travelled and OTRed on both to form a definite opinion.

Yes finish is better in gypsy but no great shakes. Reliability modern M&M vehicle will also not give much of headaches. Yes Di refinement is questionable.

1000 was not that sluggish, again i have used both 1000 and esteem for over a lakh km. Yes esteem was powerful but not that 1000 was that bad that people (common man) would not buy it.

About Di in rural market i have no doubts and that saar Thar statement was just a bit of sarcasm an M&M stupidity. A farmer as you rightly said might not care, it will be used more by M&M to create an impression its upmarket and demand a higher price.

Let me reiterate that Thar has to be better packaged if it has to sell the concept to a yupiee. A MM550 with just Crde and IFS is not that. It needs to have more substance since its going to be priced higher, mostly way higher. India wants VFM and i have doubts the current Crde Thar pricing is going to be that, do you think otherwise? Let's just wait and watch thats all i have to say.

Well whats in a name? Everything is in the name, coz name is what creates a brand and the image. Image is a very important factor for the VFM indian buyer also. That's my point. When M&M sells many Di in rural market and few Crde in urban market it will matter more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
But will that MBA dude know the difference between MDi and CDRe version other than by price?
===========
Remember, you need to teach everything to MBA types.
Well said my very sentiments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreejeshmp View Post
For me I need a Jeep(For daily use & off road), which can take me wherever I need to go with comfort (AC,Hard top, but ok without it),
should be able to reach 120- 140km/h and 0-100 in around 14 - 17 sec, and should stop without worry when I break,and ofcourse a LSD.

Vinod ,Behram sir, I believe The Real Thar Can satisfy all this but when ? do we need to wait another 6 month or a year for the D Day ?
One humble suggestion, Thar Crde or for that matter any such vehicle can be very dangerous for indian roads at speeds of 140 kmph and all. Even gypsies are quite a handfull at high speeds. But yes it will be a decent point A to B, which can take you in relative comfort, if it can be decked up with some comfort options like AC etc.

Grape wine says its delayed a lil bit but not 6 months kind of delays. Hopefully! all this Thar hype was not created to rake in some numbers for a 550 Di
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Old 2nd December 2010, 22:49   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
H
1) Rear Shackle mount has been lowered. In the NGCS MM550 the rear shackle was longer and bolted in the Chassis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Hey Arka,
Now you and tini have every thing, just remove those axles from your old vehicle and put it on new THAR Di 4wd.

There you have a rocking machine just like you wanted!! The chassis is same as army one but only thing is that perch points are alterted as it doesnt have to take that monster 7.50 -16 tyre. And yes the steering here is manual RCBT.

For some of you who do not know, THAR DI and CRDe uses the same body as that of Army. Heavy guage pure steel!!
So are you booking THAR Di 4wd now?...you better do it!! .
Vinod, you know we like 7.50x16 tires? Can the leaf shackle mount be modified to allow for 7.50x16 tires using the Army NGCS set up?

Is the steering box up front? This will make PS conversion much easier.

This vehicle is really what I wanted. I just have to figure out what to do with my jeep ;-)..
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Old 2nd December 2010, 23:20   #75
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If the reason for naming this thing Thar is increasing the numbers, then Marketing guys are dumb. What are they trying to accomplish by showing 5000+ numbers.
I think they should launch a 125cc bike and call it the Thar.
Then they can launch a fully loaded jeep for 9L with all bells and whistles.
And then they can claim Thar sells 10,000+ a month.
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