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Old 3rd December 2010, 14:24   #106
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Marketing Gimmick?

1) IMO - For the company this is good marketing. End of day they are going to see what matters Sales numbers. Public sees more vehicles with the Thar decal be it MDi or CRDe giving more publicity for the vehicle there by more sales.
Less visibility of vehicle on road will lead to lesser sales.

2) I agree that a THAR CRDe owner will know he has a better and niche product than the fellow THAR MDi driving along side him and vice-versa. Would anyone seriously Not buy the Thar just cause the new 550 is also being called a THAR?

Similarly, many who want the Storm may settle for the MDi cause they cannot afford it. Storm Owners know they have the top end (mechanically) variant so dilution of brand is not an issue.

3) Many want the Solid Axle more affordable variant which MM has given. Why cant these guys drive around with the THAR badge?

4) The Thar has not even launched, no buyers and its become such a big brand?.... that we are now trying to protect it?

Also, thanks for clearing up that the 4x4 version is coming. For many this would make more sense than the more expensive and overpriced CRDe version.

I Like the rational given by Vinod
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Looks!! How could we have two names for similar looking vehicles?? Though similarities end here, for a normal road going guy he wouldnt be able to make a difference. Then why confuse him with two names?- this wouldnt have benefited any brand. Today you still are talking about THAR and not about MM550 MDI TC 4wd. Got what iam saying? :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
why is the jeep nameless/no decal? Why not call it the MM560
Hello saar - I patented that naming convention. MM would have to pay me royalty of atleast 1 MM Thar CRDe and 1 MM Thar MDi / MM560 for coining that model name.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post2097746 (Mahindra Major 4x4 Edit:Now Discontinued)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post2097797 (Mahindra Major 4x4 Edit:Now Discontinued)

Everything matches what we speculated except I had asked for MDL. MM why aren't you listening?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
LOL I like the way everyones going "This is not Thar, this is not Thar"!!! So cute
Hehe thats cause this is not the Thar everyone was expecting.
Team-Bhp was not prepared for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Slapping the Thar badge on it must have been a last minute marketing decision. They are diluting the brand name even before Thar has been launched.
They agreed its last min. But I personally think its wise decision from their perspective. A Potential Thar (CRDe) buying would be a little miffed by this, but it should not stop him from buying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Guys,
THAR Di is the answer to every one's wish of a plain, simple, reliable and effective workhorse that Team Bhpians and off road traditionalists wanted- This includes myself !!
Some of you sensed this was coming, though THAR CRDe was discussed every where this vehicle was always kept under wrap for you all to get pleasently surprised!
...
It was not rocket science once the Major was discontinued. The only reasonable shell dye remaining was the good old 540/CJ7 shell.
Thank you ~ for launching a plain, simple, reliable, (affordable) and effective workhorse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
Hey Arka,
Now you and tini have every thing, just remove those axles from your old vehicle and put it on new THAR Di 4wd. There you have a rocking machine just like you wanted!! The chassis is same as army one but only thing is that perch points are alterted as it doesnt have to take that monster 7.50 -16 tyre. And yes the steering here is manual RCBT.
Okay Vinod here is my question on this. Why?

a) Why should he be impatient and buy the 4x2 and modify? How long will the 4x4 take to be launched / delivered?
b) why would you alter the perch points? Have you see the MTs being used nowadays by most folks? the 7.50 -16 tyre is considered nothing now a days.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinod_nookala View Post
THAR DI will be offered in 4wd as an option. But CRDe will be made only in 4wd.
Makes sense!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
why are you guys comparing IFS CRDE Thar with OKBJ MDi Thar.

FYI technically both are different vehicles with common body shell.
Cause bit of extreme offroading on Rocky terrain uneven terrain where articulation is key would demand the Solid Live Axle version.
Not the comfy CRDe

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsferrari View Post
Thar MDi - 4.3L ex showroom
Thar CRDe - 6.2L ex showroom
Okay seriously. Can someone confirm these numbers?

IMO the CRDe would be priced 1.75L+ more than the MDi.

Wolf~ which dealer did you see this vehicle at?

India Garage / Sireesh / SKS ? Am guessing SKS, Bilakahalli?

Last edited by IronWolf : 3rd December 2010 at 14:29.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 15:01   #107
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Hi DB Sir/Vinod/Spike,

I have a few questions

1) Why wasn't the 57" OKBJ used in the MDI?
This has been used in the NGCS MM550XD & DI and the Legend.

Is the Caster/Camber/KPI & Toe-In the same and is it a 35degree Knuckle for a 51"OKBJ?

2) Why hasn't the 53" FFRA carried over from NGCS MM550XD/MDI & Legend.

3) The Force Motors Gurkha uses a 4.9:1 Differential Ratio and still qualifies for BS3, why not a MM550 variant?
*: Force Motors LTD.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd December 2010, 15:08   #108
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
My 1st Jeep was a Gypsy(1000) in 96. Then I bought a used 550, apart from not being diesel, Gypsy was better in most areas.

But why are we discussing the 1000 in That thread at all, the market dynamics have completely changed since then! There are much recent egs. to follow, eg. the Bolero(Thars cousin).
I just was quoting a naming example where 2 models with same looks but different name, which gave a clear brand identity. If you want to discuss about 1000 vs Esteem, we can still continue in another thread. FYI 1000 atleast in most part of India was NOT a failure. Second hand was also a premium till the esteem flooded the market. I know coz before the Gypsy purchase i was looking at esteem and 1000 options lol Anyways its another discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
With just BS3, their choices are limited. A higher price may give them initial numbers but soon the market will dry out. I don't have Major's sales figures but guess that it did not sell in high nos.
Major was consumed majorly by the govt departments and security agencies. Same will happen with Di 550 irrespective of Thar or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Yes I've been saying from the start, better packaged = VFM. Indian consumer is very aware now but MM might try to exploit the solo player advantage.
101% they will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD View Post
Im more like, 1st product then name. If you have a good product at hand, you can play with the name. I wouldn't care a tiny rat's *** if Thar were to be called, Sahara, Brahmputra, Khar(khardungla), goldie, bunty, tomy, etc. All I want is a good Jeep, got nothing to do with the name!
Again its a big marketing debate, but as far as i know my basics in the department, name has a huge impact. Especially when the name was cleverly built over years using various means. Reason why "am" not thrilled is they showed me a tiger named Thar, now they are saying its just a cat


Quote:
Originally Posted by chaunfa View Post
Not meaning to start a war but I would love it if it could come in hand(on road) for six and a half. Otherwise my dreams will be shattered...sob...how come there is no teary eyed emoction?
6.5 OTR for Thar junior right? or Junior ++

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Marketing Gimmick?

1) IMO - For the company this is good marketing. End of day they are going to see what matters Sales numbers. Public sees more vehicles with the Thar decal be it MDi or CRDe giving more publicity for the vehicle there by more sales.
Less visibility of vehicle on road will lead to lesser sales.
Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
2) I agree that a THAR CRDe owner will know he has a better and niche product than the fellow THAR MDi driving along side him and vice-versa. Would anyone seriously Not buy the Thar just cause the new 550 is also being called a THAR?
Not everyone is blinded like you and me on the potential of a 4x4 product, that they stop caring Ironji.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Similarly, many who want the Storm may settle for the MDi cause they cannot afford it. Storm Owners know they have the top end (mechanically) variant so dilution of brand is not an issue.
As i said, i have only some basic knowledge, having worked on this brand wand stuff and that definitely says brand matters when you are targeting a niche small market. It will not for the aam janta ie MM550. You and me do not belong in either of this.

Moreover read the tiger vs cat theory, brilliant marketing strategy by M&M i say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
3) Many want the Solid Axle more affordable variant which MM has given. Why cant these guys drive around with the THAR badge?
aha so thats the hidden agenda eh But if you dont care about brand name then why bother if it is or not a Thar. On the other hand look at the advantage that they get by conveniently borrowing Thar name for the 550. Ding ding ding, money saved ain't it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
4) The Thar has not even launched, no buyers and its become such a big brand?.... that we are now trying to protect it?
Bingo! This is the point, all i need to do is put the badge on something different and avoid lot of headaches and maybe even get some lead start with marketing of the cat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Also, thanks for clearing up that the 4x4 version is coming. For many this would make more sense than the more expensive and overpriced CRDe version.
ie if you have a rural address you can use!! You cant register it in BLR!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
I Like the rational given by Vinod
As i said some of us who really dont care, such rational works. But fact might be different for 3rd person. And i cannot accept it to be that simple coming from a M&M inside voice can i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Hello saar - I patented that naming convention. MM would have to pay me royalty of atleast 1 MM Thar CRDe and 1 MM Thar MDi / MM560 for coining that model name.
They are trying to save money using same name and you expect royalty! ATVB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
They agreed its last min. But I personally think its wise decision from their perspective. A Potential Thar (CRDe) buying would be a little miffed by this, but it should not stop him from buying it.
There is a possibility that he might not, ie if he is not an existing jeep/4x4 person, thanks to maybe just social pressure. Just ask Deepak what he went through to just buy a gypsy.

So it aint that simple. Again if we want to discuss on this, it can continue for pages. But only thing that matters right now is just the pricing of Tom Dick and Harry models of this jeep. So lets please look at that angle and keep waiting.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 15:16   #109
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Jeez, why does every Thar thread become so emotional. Guys there are two versions depending on your preferences. Basically you buy either or neither and move one.

People whining about every version of the Thar is becoming unbearable to me and I am sure i must be just as painful for the team who has made this a reality. The most vocal critics seem to be the people who have no intention of buying either Thar.

Leave the folks at Mahindra to run the company.

The reality is that no large company like Mahindra can make every customer 100% satisfied with a product design or package. You have to modify the vehicle to suit your needs as we have been doing with the MM540/550s.

Frankly, I have gone past the stage in my life where I buy something to keep up with the Jones or keep my cousin Jones in Kerala happy. I buy a product that I want and the name doesn't hold me back.

Last edited by 4x4addict : 3rd December 2010 at 15:27. Reason: Refer to previous PM. Thanks
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Old 3rd December 2010, 15:32   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Jeez, why does every Thar thread become so emotional. Guys there are two versions depending on your preferences. Basically you buy either or neither and move one.
What to do, we are a lively bunch of people here More i try to stop discussing, more someone explains lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
People whining about every version of the Thar is becoming unbearable to me and I am sure i must be just as painful for the team who has made this a reality. The most vocal critics seem to be the people who have no intention of buying either Thar.
You might be really surprised, who all are actually planning to buy the Thar. Thats why i wanted to know what people expect wrt pricing. How serious they are and how much they mean it, when they debate.

As far as i am concerned I still have an open cheque, which i will sign by beginning or max by middle of next year. On which companies name, will depend on just 2 criteria's for Thar. Landed price + Water ford-ability. And i mean it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Leave the folks at Mahindra to run the company.
Lol do you seriously think M&M stopped production becoz of this silly discussion here??? Just kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
The reality is that no large company like Mahindra can make every customer 100% satisfied with a product design or package. You have to modify the vehicle to suit your needs as we have been doing with the MM540/550s.
Completely agree and have said it earlier. You might want to browse back a little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Frankly, I have gone past the stage in my life where I buy something to keep up with the Jones or keep my cousin Jones in Kerala happy. I buy a product that I want and the name doesn't hold me back.
Let me say this ONE last time, it WILL NOT MATTER for you and me sir. But i was just trying to give a general market opinion. Please bear with it.

EDIT: And i also cant afford to stop work on a Friday afternoon. Cya break ke baad!

Last edited by Jaggu : 3rd December 2010 at 15:37.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 15:46   #111
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Default Either or Neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Leave the folks at Mahindra to run the company.

The reality is that no large company like Mahindra can make every customer 100% satisfied with a product design or package. You have to modify the vehicle to suit your needs as we have been doing with the MM540/550s.
Hi Tini,

M&M is not doing any of us a favour by launching either or neither of the vehicles.

They have put forward specs which can be openly debated and are being openly debated, but surprisingly none of the questions posed to them have been answered within the "Realms of Scientific Reasoning and Engineering".

We have been modifying our vehicles to suit our needs, what are the similarities between, your MM540DP & my MM540XD, we tried to CUT, COPY & PASTE something which M&M have done on some vehicles i.e NGCS MM550XD.

Then why isn't that being carried forward on the newer models?

Are we to really believe this is the best we can have?

Can you believe that the reason for not using FFRA, is that the two additional bearings create powerloss and decrease efficiency.

But Force Motors manages to do so with their FFRA on their DI Engine peaking at 3200RPM, with a 4.9 Differential Ratio.

So I take it you are going to buy a New THAR MDI and swap Axles.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:03   #112
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Arka / Spike,..why was the Thar MDi not introduced with the XDP engine considering it put out 72 bhp in Naturally aspirated format. Was it as the torque is lower down in the rev range.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:08   #113
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On the branding issue, M&M have already done something similar to this with the Scorpio M2Di which was possibly diluting a higher-end brand (by M&M standards) and though I don't have Sales numbers, I still see them around so am sure they think its an ok thing to do.

I think the MDI3200 engine should be called the "Brand Diluter" or "BDi" engine ( of course no reference to Mr. Behram here) as its typically used to do that

Cheers,
Adi
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:18   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Arka / Spike,..why was the Thar MDi not introduced with the XDP engine considering it put out 72 bhp in Naturally aspirated format. Was it as the torque is lower down in the rev range.
Hi Naveen,

The XD3P died a BS2 Death..........but its Ghost still resides in the NEF2.49TCIC and NEF249 CRDe aka M-Eagle.

XD3P was 15-16Kgm@2000Rpm.

Regards,

Arka
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:30   #115
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Default 6.5lakh for Thar Senior and bells

Jaggu,

I meant 6.5 with the yuppie mobile, is my logic flawed? Since a hard top Bolero VLX is 7.5 at Saddi Delhi on road. Course that is a 2 wheelie thingie and it talks naughty to you .

Regards,

Chaunfa
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:46   #116
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When we finally add AC + HT + MT/AT tyres + front facing rear seats to Thar CDRe, I wonder what will be the final price tag? Then there is the Winch, MLD and additional lights. This may end up costing as much as Gurkha in the end.


PS: FFRA and MLD will be mutually exclusive, I suppose MLD is available only in SFRA version.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 16:54   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Naveen,

The XD3P died a BS2 Death..........but its Ghost still resides in the NEF2.49TCIC and NEF249 CRDe aka M-Eagle.

XD3P was 15-16Kgm@2000Rpm.

Regards,

Arka

Thanks for the answer Arka !
The XDP3 is Bs2, and the army continues to use them in the 550 ?!
I
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Old 3rd December 2010, 17:25   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Moreover read the tiger vs cat theory, brilliant marketing strategy by M&M i say.

.....

aha so thats the hidden agenda eh But if you dont care about brand name then why bother if it is or not a Thar. On the other hand look at the advantage that they get by conveniently borrowing Thar name for the 550. Ding ding ding, money saved ain't it.

...

Bingo! This is the point, all i need to do is put the badge on something different and avoid lot of headaches and maybe even get some lead start with marketing of the cat!
Jaggu - Exactly
- Exactly
And Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Jeez, why does every Thar thread become so emotional.
Cause its the Thar and we are on the 4x4 section

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Guys there are two versions depending on your preferences. Basically you buy either or neither and move one.
Eggactly!

Can we have more reviews / info on the Thar MDi as the topic suggests and not talk about the CRDe 'beast' until it really arrives?

Okay seriously -- no off topic discussions.

Last edited by Amartya : 4th December 2010 at 07:24. Reason: Edited out an extra smiley.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 17:58   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Ex, showroom price that you would pay for:

MM 550 Di 4x2 (Thar Junior):
MM 550 Di 4x4 (Thar Junior++):
The Thar Crde 4x4:
MM 550 Di 4 x 2 (Thar Junior) : Would not buy!
MM 550 Di 4 x 4 (Thar Junior++) : Rs. 5 L
The Thar Crde 4 x 4 : Rs 7 - 7.5L All inclusive.
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Old 3rd December 2010, 19:17   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
As far as i am concerned I still have an open cheque, which i will sign by beginning or max by middle of next year. On which companies name, will depend on just 2 criteria's for Thar. Landed price + Water ford-ability. And i mean it.
Price is critical and I don't doubt for a minute that it will be deal breaker if not priced well.

I was referring to folks hitting their head against the wall about the Thar brand being diluted because of MDI. It may or may not, but if anyone is holding back from buying a Thar CRDe, just because there is a Thar DI then it doesn't make sense in my opinion. I am just questioning the logic that some people put forth that Thar DI will bring shame to the Thar CRDe.

Scorpiio has the M2DI which doesn't prevent it from clocking 3000+ units a month.
Safari still offered the 2.0 TCIC option unil a year or so ago
XYLO has D2 with grey bumpers which hasn't prevented XYLO from selling 3000 units a month.
Xenon has a 4x2 cousin.
Heck, even the Range Rover has a poor cousin called the Range Rover Sport which is based on the previous generation(prior to BMW/Ford takeover).
Porche has the GT2 and the boxter for the masses.
Mercedes has the A-Class and The SL55 AMG.
I can go on an on, but I hope people will stop worrying about Thar brand dilution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Lol do you seriously think M&M stopped production becoz of this silly discussion here??? Just kidding.
They won't. That's probably whey people should move on..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Let me say this ONE last time, it WILL NOT MATTER for you and me sir. But i was just trying to give a general market opinion. Please bear with it.
I feel that the only buyers of Thar CRDe in the current form it is being offered will be a Jeeper. It doesn't really offer much to anyone who is looking for Snob value. So, I don't see why DI cousin will cause any harm to Thar. Snob value is not an USP of the Thar..

Only a true jeep enthusiast will appreciate the Thar. If you take the vehicle to a layman who has no interest in jeeps, he will really wonder why you bought it. It is really not a mass market vehicle, but targeted at jeep enthusiasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
Hi Tini,

M&M is not doing any of us a favour by launching either or neither of the vehicles.

Are we to really believe this is the best we can have?
Hi Arka,

I do agree that Mahindra cuts corners. There was absolutely no reason to take away things like FFRA, 57 in track, and lower the leaf springs etc. But I was pointing out that if you want a deisel 4x4 in the 5 to 6 lakh range, Mahindra is your only choice. Besides I feel that the M&M folks who do inhabit this form may have to concede to other departments for cost control etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
So I take it you are going to buy a New THAR MDI and swap Axles.

Arka
No sir, I was just having a lengthy discussion in this regard with a fellow jeeper and I feel it makes sense to keep mine

Last edited by 4x4addict : 3rd December 2010 at 19:25.
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