Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > 4x4 & Off-Roading > 4x4 Vehicles


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 4th January 2011, 10:13   #616
Senior - BHPian
 
ex670c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,454
Thanked: 1,789 Times
Default Reliability

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
You know what's the favourite hang out place for all rigid axled Jeep owners ? Their mechanic ! Whenever I drive into the area where Jeeps are being rebuilt its like one big happy reunion. They are all there and their Jeeps are being rebuilt ALL THE TIME !

So what reliability or unbreakablility are you guys talking about on solid axle Jeeps?

Sorry guys I think we are simply holding onto our positions without being honest.

Sharath has spent more time money and energy fixing that Jeep of his than he could possibly have ever dreamt. Jaggu is busy tinkering with his Jeep. Arka travels with his mechanic. I spent three months fiddling with mine to get it right. So did GTO and Gogi and...well the list is endless isn't it?
Hi DKG,

Nice way of turning things around.

It does not matter if the Vehicle is Old or New. In an OTR situation anything can go wrong and usually does.

I carry 2 Sets of Steering Knuckles and Full Drag Link/Track Link Set, Rear Propeller Shaft, Spare Alternator, Axle Flanges and Rear Axles & Front Axle.

Most of them are to enable me to continue, into the off-road, and worst case be towed back to a garage. These are off-road perishables.

For a IFS vehicle you will have to carry all of the above and Upper Arm/Lower Arm Left & Right and Rack & Pinion Steering

Solid Axle vehicles can go to the nearest shade tree mechanic, where will the IFS dude go? The nearest "With You Hamesha"

A new vehicle from the factory has some advantages, but not much in the case of an off-road vehicle.

There are two components in an IFS which are likely to snap
1) CV Joint

2) Rack & Pinion Tie-Rod End or worse the Rack gets Stripped.

What is the field expedient repair for these?

Even if the person is carrying spares, he cannot get his vehicle fixed overnight and get back the next day.

So if one travels long distance to attend a 4 day Off-Road Meet, and suffers a failure, then he is out of the game.

Even if a hack job is done, and then the Caster/Camber/Toe-In would be totally messed up, he cannot drive long distance on the highway, or his tyre will get chewed up.

Please answer these questions

1) Which is Stronger by design?

2) Why does the Thar CRDe adventure slouch, fitted with the Winch and Bumper.

3) Which is easier to service the OKBJ or the IFS

4) Can you do a proper 2-3" Suspension Lift for the Front IFS.

How many Scorpio/Bolero's have you seen in the Off-Road Circuit? I know of 2 Scorpio owners who have bought a CJ3B after they got into off-road, and the Bolero's are Solid Axle.

Regards,

Arka

Last edited by ex670c : 4th January 2011 at 10:20.
ex670c is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 10:41   #617
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Reliability

Quote:
Originally Posted by ex670c View Post
It does not matter if the Vehicle is Old or New. In an OTR situation anything can go wrong and usually does.

I carry 2 Sets of Steering Knuckles and Full Drag Link/Track Link Set, Rear Propeller Shaft, Spare Alternator, Axle Flanges and Rear Axles & Front Axle.

Most of them are to enable me to continue, into the off-road, and worst case be towed back to a garage. These are off-road perishables
I know you do carry all this and more, a mechanic too !

You know what I carried on my Bombay or Bangalore trip?

Two fanbelts, four new plugs and a spare coil. I did all that was part of the OTR trail and didn't skip any obstacle barring a water fording. Drove back to Hyderabad and still not needed to even visit the mechanic because something broke

The point I am trying to make is you can be gentle with your offroader, have a lot of fun and not necessarily break things. Accidents can happen

Now if you feel the kind of offroading we did was pussyfooting then let me tell you for 99% of the offroaders in India that will be wild stuff. So the Thar will excel in those OTR's is all I am suggesting.

You are preparing to go to war in the OTR world and your Rubicon trail is yet to emerge. Maybe we'll find one in the Himalayas. When you do and I hope to join you I will be there with a Rubicon hopefully

Quote:
Please answer these questions
I have not done extreme hardcore offroading of a level where I felt I needed solid axles over IFS, yet !! So let me be honest that until I come upon trails where I feel my vehicle with IFS is compromised I won't trash it

Until then you must cut some slack for cars like the Thar which are meeting a wider mandate of comfort on highways etc while giving the consumer a great vehicle for some serious offroad fun. Maybe not the Rubicon trail variety but fun all the same

Technically I am not an engineer to really say that I can relate to the advantages of a solid axle. I need to feel the need in the field someday and then I will become as committed as you to that tech

Until then I am applying a more realistic real world approach where 99.99% of Thars will not get subjected to terrain where they will necessarily break down or be damaged even when used carefully.

Obviously when someone abuses the vehicle he will break it. And that includes the solid axled Jeeps as well

Last edited by DKG : 4th January 2011 at 10:44.
DKG is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 10:42   #618
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,487
Thanked: 6,764 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus43 View Post
Dream on about the Jimny happening soon. Anyways, The reason the 99.9 persent of Off roaders have something with a solid axle is because there have been no choices in india otherwise.
Not really cyrus, if am given an option to choose between solid axle and IFS in a modern package like Thar Crde i would pick solid axle anyday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
You know what's the favourite hang out place for all rigid axled Jeep owners ? Their mechanic !
Sadly 100% true, but this is because they dont get original parts or good dealership workshops where the vehicles can be worked upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
They are all there and their Jeeps are being rebuilt ALL THE TIME !
I was little fortunate, i bought the CJ3B in a butchered shape, had to take it to garage 2-3 times initially and then she ran sweet for 4 months. Yeah number of OTR outings was less, but compared to other jeep's i was fortunate to come back home in one shape whenever i went out, maybe i neednt push it hard coz its a CJ3B. Maybe i was lucky. Touch wood.

I had meanwhile made a list of pending jobs, and have given the vehicle now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
These guys buy old Jeeps for a 1 lac and end up spending 10 lakhs on spares and trips to the mechanic during the life of the Jeep.
I bought mine at 1.8 and now the total tab is at 2.4-2.5 i guess. On an average jeeps/gypsy rebuild (a pukka one) will come to 5-6 lakhs at the most. Including the cost price, this am talking about complete strip down builds for army disposals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
So what reliability or unbreakablility are you guys talking about on solid axle Jeeps?
DKG i take the challenge, i will take my humble CJ3B to pearl valley and anyone can bring Thar. Just one obstacle, lets see how the vehicles behave after clearing that. Its not the most difficult of the challenge, but has a nasty rut to clear. But yes we have to wait till rains

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Sorry guys I think we are simply holding onto our positions without being honest.
I mentioned earlier itself that this will go on. But having seen what happens in an OTR with IFS set up, now i am much more clearer with my thoughts. Again am disputing to only one point, that Thar may not be the ideal offroader if you are serious about offroad and worried about maintenance while doing offroads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Sharath has spent more time money and energy fixing that Jeep of his than he could possibly have ever dreamt. Jaggu is busy tinkering with his Jeep. Arka travels with his mechanic. I spent three months fiddling with mine to get it right. So did GTO and Gogi and...well the list is endless isn't it?
Please understand that we all started with a very sad state of base vehicles and are slowly working up. Touch wood Sharath's CJ has come out really well now and is treating him well these days, just like yours. Mine as i said earlier, i have been very fortunate also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
And it doesn't stop. Now I need to head back in to have things tightened up and the silencer seems to have a rattle from the inside.
This will happen to any vehicle, Thar or not. Brand new or not, especially if it has anything remotely connected to the term jeep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I don't mind heading back and you know why? Coz I know I will meet all the other Jeepers there And I like the chit chatting that goes on as the Jeeps get repaired
Let us admit it, this is one of the best part about building jeeps or owning one. The friends that we make! How many trails or a trip in a year?? Vs how many excuses to meet up, almost every other weekend. Coz someone is at the garage! I would say all my speed dials are occupied by the close friends i have made after getting into OTR'ing in BLR!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
How many Scorpio or Bolero owners look forward to reunions at the local MASS? NONE !!! Says it all doesn't it? A new car is a new car is a new car is a.....
Again i agree, new vehicle is new vehicle and it is the same even if its outside M&M, say Gypsy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
My point is Tejas all this harping about high maintenance is crap as the solid axle Jeeps keep getting buggered just as much. The tie rod ends wear out or the leafspring bolts keep coming loose or oil leaks develop or the headgasket blows...the list is endless
The money i spent to do a 30-40% refurbish of a CJ3B = One broken CV joint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Remember if you don't bend components a wheel alignment at best costs Rs 250 ! And you guys make it sound like all of us are only straddling large boulders all the time to worry about CV joints failing
Its not about doing a wheel alignment, its about having bent lower arms and you also agree that it can happen.

Avalaconda you participated was the annual event, things are very conservative then due to very valid reasons. Action usually happens with the small crowds, ill leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
You abuse any vehicle you will have wear and tear. If IFS is built robust no reason why it will break. By the way if anyone thinks you can't break a solid axled Jeep I'd be happy to split their diff in two or shear the damn thing off the frame in 20 minutes by driving like a moron. IFS or no IFS you need to handle your offroader with gentleness and finesse. You rough it up, the most tough vehicle in the world will crumble
I completely agree that any vehicle will break up into pieces. But this is a comparison debate. How can you say that IFS (in this particular case Thar) is more robust than a solid axle (comparison sake keep it Thar Di )

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Ask any Ford or Willys MB owner why they don't offroad. They are all scared **** that their prized possesions will get buggered up. THEY ARE RIGHT ! Their prized possessions will get buggered up, Solid axle or no axle, when you offroad regularly
If they have option to build jeeps back with genuine parts and if it did not have a classic value where everything has to be in ship, shape, even cosmetically. Would they care so much? Same reason why i keep only the mechanical integrity of DwArF intact, coz i want to use it. The day i get a better option i might make it a museum piece. Offroader or for that matter any on road regular use car cannot be a museum piece.

EDIT


Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I know you do carry all this and more, a mechanic too !

You know what I carried on my Bombay or Bangalore trip?

Two fanbelts, four new plugs and a spare coil. I did all that was part of the OTR trail and didn't skip any obstacle barring a water fording. Drove back to Hyderabad and still not needed to even visit the mechanic because something broke
Yes all credit goes to you, coz you did the right things when you rebuilt the CJ3B!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Now if you feel the kind of offroading we did was pussyfooting then let me tell you for 99% of the offroaders in India that will be wild stuff. So the Thar will excel in those OTR's is all I am suggesting.
In agreement and that's why i suggested Thar to any one who want to enter into OTR circuits and just enjoy normal trails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I have not done extreme hardcore offroading of a level where I felt I needed solid axles over IFS, yet !! So let me be honest that until I come upon trails where I feel my vehicle with IFS is compromised I won't trash it
One place is enough to convince you. Vattavada.

Last edited by Jaggu : 4th January 2011 at 10:55.
Jaggu is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 10:58   #619
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
DKG i take the challenge, i will take my humble CJ3B to pearl valley and anyone can bring Thar. Just one obstacle, lets see how the vehicles behave after clearing that. Its not the most difficult of the challenge, but has a nasty rut to clear. But yes we have to wait till rains
Jaggu sir you are being mean. Your CJ3B on account of its lighter weight (for crying out loud its only 1120kgs !! ) and shorter wheelbase and that glorious engine will be too tough to compete against for a long wheelbase heavier Thar. Compare Thar with regular 540/550 and then say who sails through effortlessly.
DKG is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:00   #620
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,487
Thanked: 6,764 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Jaggu sir you are being mean. Your CJ3B on account of its lighter weight (for crying out loud its only 1120kgs !! ) and shorter wheelbase and that glorious engine will be too tough to compete against for a long wheelbase heavier Thar. Compare Thar with regular 540/550 and then say who sails through effortlessly.
Ok. I will hire a 550 and lets see who drives back home in same shape. That was my point, sailing or flying over the obstacle mostly Thar would do

Last edited by Jaggu : 4th January 2011 at 11:05.
Jaggu is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:07   #621
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 46,501
Thanked: 80,103 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Sharath has spent more time money and energy fixing that Jeep of his than he could possibly have ever dreamt. Jaggu is busy tinkering with his Jeep. Arka travels with his mechanic. I spent three months fiddling with mine to get it right. So did GTO and Gogi and...well the list is endless isn't it?
That's like saying, a new Corolla is more reliable than a 20 year old example!! Please compare apples to apples. If you have to compare a brand new offroader, do so only with the other brand new offroader...i.e. The Gypsy. And the Gypsy will probably require 20% of the maintenance as a Thar over a 10 year ownership period. I know a thing or two about Mahindra's build quality & jugaad after 14 years of owning one, and if it's peace of the mind you are looking for, the Gypsy will beat the Thar hollow.

Sorry to say, DKG, but your argument is completely unrelated to the matter at hand. The main point of this discussion is

THAR IFS versus Thar Solid Axle

This is not about Thar versus old Jeeps. It's about the front IFS which is proven to be more fragile, expensive and less competent off the road. And what restrictions / limitations / disadvantages are there to the IFS. IF we ignore that, we are being biased.

It's like saying a New Ambassador will require less overall maintenance than Rudra's '57 or a new Maruti 800 is more reliable than an '84. That is obvious! My Jeep is in its 14th year, Samurais in its 20th (IIRC his make is a '92) and Gogis...well, from before I was born. It is but natural that a 20 year old Jeep will require more attention than a brand new one.

Do you think a Thar will be trouble-free after 1.80 lakhs on it? Yes, that's the exact kms on my Classic (in the ballpark, since the odo doesn't work 1/2 the time ). And since you bring up cost, here is a fact : Even with a new engine, new body and original acquisition cost, my Classic has cost me about as much as a brand new Thar. That's AFTER 14 years of ownership, abuse, off-roading and nearly 2.0 lakh kms. Here's some more facts:

- My Classic hasn't visited Milestone since March / April 201.

- Since I got the new engine in 2007, my Classic hasn't had a single breakdown while off-roading. Reason for both these points : Quality parts + quality labour. I fully credit Milestone for the health of my Jeep.

- In 1.80 lakh kms, I've spent LESS THAN 50 grand on my front suspension (actually, much less).

And this is DESPITE going to an authorised Mahindra workshop which I know is more expensive, yet uses the right parts & labour (always works out cheaper in the longer run).

If you think the Thar is going to be cheap to maintain after 10 years of abuse, I'm sorry to say that's completely off the mark. Forget rock climbing, from wear & tear alone, the CVs will wear out. And they cost about 40K. Everytime you want to visit the front suspension, it's going to be atleast 20K. Truth is, whatever the abuse level, the IFS requires a lot more attention / $$$ than solid axles. Even Behram will attest to this (who else knows Jeeps better).

Then, the cost of Intercooler up at the front and how it'll handle abuse / water etc. Yes, I've had to overhaul my alternator after water-fording, but that's it. I don't have an ECM, intercooler, innumerable sensors to worry about, over and above the alternator / starter.

Quote:
You know what's the favourite hang out place for all rigid axled Jeep owners ? Their mechanic !
We'll see where 15 - 30 year old Thars are hanging out

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
My point is Tejas all this harping about high maintenance is crap as the solid axle Jeeps keep getting buggered just as much.
It's not crap. It's well proven and documented that solid axle requires less maintenance, has cheaper construction and can take more abuse than IFS. A solid axle 2011 year Thar will be FAR CHEAPER TO OWN, more rugged and a better offroader than a 2011 IFS THAR. Ask Toyota why they sold the LC105 (with solid axles) to the "rough" markets over the LC100 (with IFS).

Quote:
If you are worried about maintenance DON"T OFFROAD !!!
Everyone has a certain budget. I can afford to maintain a Honda, but not a Mercedes. That doesn't mean I stop driving.

Quote:
And it doesn't stop. Now I need to head back in to have things tightened up and the silencer seems to have a rattle from the inside.
Do you think a 10 year old Thar won't have rattles? Believe me, Mahindra's build quality isn't a Toyota just yet.

And no, this isn't a purist solid axle Jeep owner typing. I'm only calling a spade a spade. I've continuously reiterated that Mahindra has perfectly tuned the on-road / off-road performance of the Thar, keeping in mind the mass market. However, if you expect me to not list the disadvantages of a product, well...that's just not me. Each of my reviews have atleast 5 -6 disadvantages clearly listed. Please refer to my previous posts on the Thar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm going against the tide here, but I do NOT think the Thar is over-priced at all. I've never heard anyone complain of the Gypsy's pricing, thus am surprised that a 6 lakh ex-showroom price is meeting with some criticism.

Gypsy ex-showroom price in Mumbai : 5.58 lakhs
Thar = 6.28 lakhs

Difference = Rs. 70,000. What do I get for 70,000?

- Diesel Economy (this alone with worth the difference)
- More power
- More torque (247 nm versus 103 - That's 2.5 times more!)
- A power steering
- Better ride quality on tarmac

The differential value, of these 5 points combined, is a lot more than 70 grand. In fact, the Thar CRDe makes the Gypsy look overpriced!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Fact is, the Thar addresses the needs of a larger market segment than a hard-core offroader. Is the front IFS a deal breaker to guys like Arka? You bet. Would I trade my Classic for a Thar? Over my dead body.

However, we have to understand that 90% of the market out there is willing to accept a vehicle that gives away 20% in offroading prowess, for 200% better on-road manners. I can confirm that the Thar drives like no other Mahindra Jeep on the road. ZERO turbo-lag, surprisingly good ride quality, 5 speed box with overdrive and a nippy power steering for the city. Those who want a Jeep that's easier to live with, will choose a Thar 99 times out of 100 over an MM540 / Classic. Hey, it can even offroad 80% of the way that a solid axle can. And believe me, for the masses, that's more capability than they'd ever need.

Then, look at it this way : The Thar offers a package that didn't exist before. If you want a harsh, albeit competent, off-roader, go buy a brand new Gypsy. Spend a little more and you can even get yourself a Gurkha.

Lastly, offroading is NOT a cheap sport. I blow away a lot of money on my Jeep year after year. Even if the 6 lakh rupee Thar had a solid axle front, I'd much rather go and abuse my ol' Jeep on the rocks than a shiny new one.

From the business perspective, M&M have made the right decision. From the perspective of MOST car buyers in India, the Thar's independent front is more suited. I continue to insist that the Thar is a winner.

P.S. Is the Thar perfect? Hell NO! I simply do not understand in which century Mahindra lives in. The fit, finish & ergonomics are APPALLING.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shekaran View Post
GTO, DB, Vinod, Spike Sir's, we are waiting for your proaction in this aspect, very soon. its this one most wanted road test making us all wait and watch, post all our opinions in thar threads - dreaming daily.
Not a GTO-review this time. Rather, we have amongst two of the best offroaders on Team-BHP (A Senior Moderator & a DBHPian) who have tested the Thar inside out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus43 View Post
The reason the 99.9 persent of Off roaders have something with a solid axle is because there have been no choices in india otherwise.
Perhaps you should visit some int'l forums where people still crave for solid axle Landcruisers, Wrangers & G Wagens. Or how many have performed swap jobs & got rid of the IFS.

Last edited by GTO : 4th January 2011 at 11:13.
GTO is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:13   #622
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Arka I'll share a interesting experience in another field which I think will demonstrate more aptly my point of view and I'm sure you will understand.

Some 20 years ago when I lived in Dubai I decided to treat myself to some high end audio equipment as I am very fond of music. So for a year I subscribed to The Stereophile and The Absolute Sound (those days these were considered the purist audiophile's magazines) and studied review after review about what's hot and what's not.

Soon I graduated to visiting the store and asking for demos. I went through works. From ultra low watt valve amps to turn tables where the electronics and the platter were separate, to cd players where the platter and electronics where separate to the very best in sophisticated solid state devices with pure gold connectors, bi wired speakers, the works.

I kept hearing it all and guess what I got totally confused.

Then my saviour arrived in the form of a fellow audiophile who said "Deepak we made a lot of mistakes and I'll share my experience with you and hopefully you won't make the same mistake"

Basically he said only one thing. Your choice of equipment should not go by what tech you are buying or what x y or z says no matter how authoritative they are in the field. Ultimately buy something only when you can't hear the difference between one level of equipment and the one above. Ofcourse another way is to set a budget and work within that budget. In those days the ultimate speakers were USD 100000 (yes I lac dollars !!)

He also said regardless of what equipment you buy remember the source material itself is flawed and not upto the mark. So if you are going to buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment and you don't have enough source material in the form of LP's or high quality mastered CD's what's the point of all that high tech?

I agreed and believe me with great clarity I went about auditioning equipment and in no time I stopped at a level and bought it. Its now 20 years since I bought my stuff and I still listen to it every day and that's all the high end audio my heart desires, my ear can appreciate and I honestly don't give a toss if its a talking point at a discussion or not. For me it gives me tons and tons of pleasure.

Like wise in the offroading world. Superior new tech will never come cheap. It will be expensive as more robust materials would mean higher costs.

So when the option is an old solid axled Jeep vs a new Thar which may be like the entry level high end audio I picked up eventually it will meet and exceed my personal requirement.

It may be no purists dream. But like the source in audio material doesn't exist commercially those trails are not yet a reality in India where a solid axled offroader is a must.

Which is not to say that IFS is superior and all that crap.

No !

We simply don't need it yet in an offroader is all I believe, atleast keeping in mind the kind of offroading most of us will do at events like what we have done so far.

Last edited by DKG : 4th January 2011 at 11:16.
DKG is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:22   #623
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The main point of this discussion is

THAR IFS versus Thar Solid Axle
GTO since both vehicles exist where is the debate?

BTW why don't you structure your review to demonstrate IFS failing in an offroad situation vs solid axle. Its not so black and white GTO. Trust me it won't be easy for you to find obstacles where one sails and the other fails !!

Opinions unsupported by appropriate tests are inconsequential regardless of who opines ! Senior Moderator and DHBian opinion is not enough, a fair and transparent test is.

It will be a fun test GTO. Believe me a lot of things will get settled

Last edited by DKG : 4th January 2011 at 11:38.
DKG is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:38   #624
BHPian
 
SafeDrive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 411
Thanked: 47 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not a GTO-review this time. Rather, we have amongst two of the best offroaders on Team-BHP (A Senior Moderator & a DBHPian) who have tested the Thar inside out.
GTO, I'm sure there are a bunch of us here following the Thar who would be interested in a review separate from a total offroader review. Like, how is it on city handling, cruising on the highway etc. Hope this aspect is also being looked into.
SafeDrive is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:42   #625
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,487
Thanked: 6,764 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
BTW why don't you structure your review to demonstrate IFS failing in an offroad situation vs solid axle. Its not so black and white GTO. Trust me it won't be easy for you to find obstacles where one sails and the other fails !!

Opinions unsupported by appropriate tests are inconsequential regardless of who opines ! Senior Moderator and DHBian opinion is not enough, a fair and transparent test is.

It will be a fun test GTO. Believe me a lot of things will get settled
DKG sir, wait for the review! Even i am waiting eagerly to put an end to my new vehicle dilemma. Let us atleast see what these guys have done, then start the debate, all over again


Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeDrive View Post
GTO, I'm sure there are a bunch of us here following the Thar who would be interested in a review separate from a total offroader review. Like, how is it on city handling, cruising on the highway etc. Hope this aspect is also being looked into.
Am sure they would have done, otherwise we will make them do the review again!

Last edited by Jaggu : 4th January 2011 at 11:44.
Jaggu is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:48   #626
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 46,501
Thanked: 80,103 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
GTO since both vehicles exist where is the debate?
Exactly! The discussion is merely about the pros & cons of the suspension setup between either. We have to accept the advantages & much as the disadvantages of each. The basics of IFS / Solid Axle are well documented on Team-BHP, and the world over.

Quote:
BTW why don't you structure your review to demonstrate IFS failing in an offroad situation vs solid axle.
I believe there are some very illustrative / comparo videos coming up . Just give them a day or two to finalise the review.

Quote:
Opinions unsupported by appropriate tests are inconsequential regardless of who opines !
Believe me, these two gents have enough experience, expertise & offroading knowledge between the two of them to make an informed opinion. And yes, there are some killer real world tests too!

Quote:
GTO, I'm sure there are a bunch of us here following the Thar who would be interested in a review separate from a total offroader review. Like, how is it on city handling, cruising on the highway etc. Hope this aspect is also being looked into.
Absolutely! On-road performance is getting the same attention as off-road. And believe me, the Thar flies like no other Jeep in the city / on the highway.

Last edited by GTO : 4th January 2011 at 11:52.
GTO is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 11:49   #627
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Let us atleast see what these guys have done, then start the debate, all over again
Since it will be a TBHP review we need to make sure it shouldn't reek of bias. It shouldn't also be based on conjecture that just because the offroading world's purists want solid axles anything without solid axles needs to be trashed.

Be fair and do a test. Take a solid axle Thar and the IFS version and prove the IFS is a total dud before anyone makes sweeping statements that IFS Thar is not for offroading. That's all.

EDIT @ GTO alright sir waiting eagerly for the fun review

Last edited by DKG : 4th January 2011 at 11:53.
DKG is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 12:02   #628
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 69
Thanked: 15 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

And since you bring up cost, here is a fact : Even with a new engine, new body and original acquisition cost, my Classic has cost me about as much as a brand new Thar. That's AFTER 14 years of ownership, abuse, off-roading and nearly 2.0 lakh kms.
Does the above comparison also take into account inflation?
However your post does show the significance of quality service and parts(hopefully both will be available for Thar) and the direct impact on the life and health of a vehicle.
hell_raiser is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 12:05   #629
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,487
Thanked: 6,764 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Be fair and do a test. Take a solid axle Thar and the IFS version and prove the IFS is a total dud before anyone makes sweeping statements that IFS Thar is not for offroading. That's all.
Sir i think i am not being clear with my words. So let me give it a try:
  1. Thar Crde is a great overall vehicle. "One" of the best option available off the shelf right now.
  2. In my city drive, it was superb from driving perspective.
  3. Its powerful enough that it should comfortably clear "most" of the general offroad circuits we visit.
  4. IFS set up and front drive line are the weak links. Which from a 100% pure offroad perspective is not "ideal".
  5. Cost of maintanence of IFS Vs Solid axle, will be higher for IFS
  6. "Personally" i believe it is over priced by 50-75k.
  7. Since i have DwArF, is it worth buying one? This is the question "I" would want an answer, from the review.

ps: I was not even remotely related to the review

pps: Let us be fair to both Thar and its reviewers and wait for the actual review, before we write-off either of them
Jaggu is offline  
Old 4th January 2011, 12:23   #630
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 911 Times
Default Re: Mahindra Thar Launch on 21st December 2010. Update: Price on Page 2!

There's another very interesting story I must share with you guys here as it proves a point relevant to our current discussion.

All my life I've been fond of motorcycles and eventually when I could afford it I decided to treat myself to a nice special motorcycle. I am a huge fan of Harleys and when in 1997 I decided to buy one I went for a test drive and was totally disappointed by its crude agricultural feel. I dropped the idea.

I had a south african colleague who was a hardcore superbiker and was running our bike division (in the dealership where I worked). When he heard from me of the Harley disappointment he said "Why don't you want to treat yourself to a superbike or a refined Japanese cruiser if looks and feel of one are more important" I was open and agreed to consider them.

So he arranged for me to drive all the bikes from the Honda range then. A few of them I had for a week so that I could decide. The Blackbird was the fastest production bike in the world then. It simply blew me away. I simply couldn't believe what an outstanding engine that was. But it was a dog in heavy traffic and only on open roads came into its elements.

Then he put me onto the cutting edge race supersport variety of the legendary CBR 600 and 900 RR. Lithe, balanced on the edge and blisteringly fast. But hard ride and uncomfortable position to really enjoy the long distance rides I wanted to do. Great for short blasts, but highly impracticle for long distance touring.

Then came the massive Valkyrie. It freaked me out. Nothing was as outlandish, as gorgeous and as comfortable to ride. I had it for a week and loved it. But it was huge and heavy and I couldn't do more than 130 as the wind in your face made it impossible to even hold onto the handle. Further I'd scrape the engine guard on bends and that worried me.

He then asked me to try out a VTR1000. Outstanding machine. Like a massager on two wheels. A double barrel gun alright. But too rough. I wanted a 4

So one day he said to me. "Deepak I think I know what will make you happiest and give you pleasure for years and years of riding. I know you like sport riding but touring as well. So here's what. In June Honda is releasing the all new version of the legendary VF750 (rated consecutively as the world's best allroundner) as the new VFR 800. Just don't think about it, buy it, trust me you won't regret it as I understand your needs now"

I simply went ahead and booked the only red of the three bikes that were to come in first in 1998.

Its now 12 years since I've had this VFR and trust me when I say this, my friend was right. This allrounder was the best bike I could have possible ever bought.

Now rewind back to 2010. I have 2 dozen friends who have bought and sold countless bikes in a span of 2 years. They all get bored after six months. They all read magazines and buy the latest cutting edge technology. But when it comes to using it on roads they all end up realising the compromises.

On long rides the rough patches you encounter on Indian roads makes these bikes horrible to be comfortable on. Most friends curse me for riding on as if I were oblivious to the fact that their delicate parts were getting rogered on rough roads. I can't help it. My VFR is supreme on real country roads. It goes like stink when you need it to explode and can handle any rough road you throw at it.

In the end 12 years down the line the VFR really was and is the most sensible decision I made. I can't say the same for my friends who tire easily of their latest hardware because they seem to leave huge chunks out of the equation.

So sometimes when you consider real world scenarios a compromise solution (if it will please my purist buddies to call the Thar so) is sometimes the more sensible decision.

You know what one purist buddy told me when I told him to join me on the Himalayan expedition? He said if we aren't offroading I'd rather drive an Innova than drive the Jeep all the way up !

Last edited by DKG : 4th January 2011 at 12:32.
DKG is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pics & Report: Rolls Royce Phantom Coupe Launch on 21st Feb in Mumbai Tejas@perioimpl Super-Cars & Imports in India 63 25th February 2012 17:58
DC Design to launch India’s first supercar *Update* Scoop pics on Page 2! Y@SH Super-Cars & Imports in India 78 6th January 2012 17:55
Mahindra Thar MDi Thread (more pics at page 24) The Wolf 4x4 Vehicles 467 18th January 2011 11:42
2010 Blind Man Car Rally Mumbai. 7th Feb 2010 EDIT: Report & Pics added page 4 Dippy Indian Motorsport 57 3rd June 2010 16:38
Hyundai 'Miles & Smiles' rally 2010(21st Feb 2010)!! any BHPians up for it? sohail99 The Team-BHP Meet Section 4 25th February 2010 10:05


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:09.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks