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Old 24th December 2010, 16:02   #1
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Cool Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

NOTE from MOD: The Mahindra Thar official review has been uploaded at this link (Mahindra Thar : Test Drive & Review).

One request, this is NOT a product bashing thread. So please control your passion towards a product! or dont get into unwanted 3rd party comparisons.

This is my personal dilemma, which i have discussed with couple of my close friends. But still remains a dilemma. Yes i have all intentions to walk the talk, provided i get all the right answers. I thought i will share it here, so that i might get some fresh perspective to my thoughts.

Disclaimer: I really dont care about ride quality, if it is reasonable. Dont care about finish, if it does not break off! when i touch it. And definitely dont care if it's soft top or not!

I have a decent CJ3B with me, my beloved DwArF. I love him! BUT when it comes to travelling long distance, my nightmare begins. No its not because DwArF sips petrol nor from reliability perspective. Its more to do with the high speed cruising and comfort. I can manage the elements, but the CJ3B is comfortable at 60-70 kmph, beyond that its spoiling the overall feel. Moreover when you have the rest of the gang in Gypsy and MM's, you eventually get a complex while cruising on a highway and they will curse you, waiting for you to catch up!

What do i do about it?

One thing am sure, if i am to buy another 4x4 for my needs, it has to be brand new from the factory. Now let us look at the options available for me in BLR showroom's.
  1. Thar Crde
  2. Gypsy

For the last few weeks i have been thinking about these options, i know none of this will give me the complete package. None of these are going to become my primary family vehicle also. So let me bring in my finance person into the discussion and put some numbers. At the end of the day this is going to be a 5-8k kms annual second vehicle for me, so i need to think!

First my favorite "from the heart" perspective Thar Crde

Costing

BLR Otr: 7,27,000/-
AC: 30,000/-
Tyre (no alloys): 40,000/-
Roll cage: 10,000/-
MLD: 35,000/-

Total: INR 8,42,000/-

What do i get for 8.42 lakhs?

- Superb diesel mill, great torque and cruising.
- FE being a diesel. I can drive to Leh or to Pune without any worries, including the driving cost since its a diesel.
- Decent ride, it will be a 2 seater for me. So rear comfort does not matter.

What my apprehensions are?

- Relatively new product. Not like i have not done this before, as a matter of fact snowie was also a new untested product in India. But being MUL i had more assurance. In this case am not very sure, since all the traditional Indian manufacturer's has had teething issue's with most of their new models. Good thing is they do sort it out and offer great support with warranty claims. But still do i want to be the test group?
- Costlier parts, especially engine and some transmission bits.
- Complex electronics, Crde has its minus with this. Again am hopeful that i can sort this out (80% sure).

"From the head" perspective choice, Gypsy 1.3 lit MPFI.

Costing

BLR Otr: 6,28,000/-
AC: 30,000/-
Tyre (no alloys): 40,000/-
Roll cage: 10,000/-
Crawler gear: 35,000/-
Rear lockers: 25,000/-

Total: INR 7,68,000/-

I save INR 74,000/- Which will buy me 1194 liter's of petrol = 14,328 kms (Avg 12kmpl) = 2 years of my usage. This is the crudest and simplest savings i can make.

What do i get for 7.68 lakhs?

- Super reliability, tried and tested product with tried and tested mods.
- Decent front seat comfort and superb fatigue free driving.
- Cheap parts, atleast the usual suspects.
- No complex electronic stuff, i might need to carry some 600 bucks aerosol can at the most.

What my apprehensions are?

- Its a petrol, every time i fill up i will get a tingle. Am used to this since i use petrol and diesel vehicles even now, but still!
- Ride will not be as good as Thar.
- Raw torque right from low rpm's cannot be matched.
- Its light so some terrain it might not be ideal, also no tow capability.

Anything else am missing? Ok i might eventually have to chop the rear overhang for sure!

Now this vehicle is for keeps, so minimum 8-10 years of service i see from them. So at the end of the day, resale also might not matter much. Only thing that can change the nature of dilemma is Jimny. If it comes out with a diesel engine, i will not even think. It will become my primary vehicle and the swift goes. If it comes in petrol i might replace another aging hatch in the family with swift and get myself the Jimny.

Unfortunately Jimny is a big speculation, just like Thar was couple of months back. I don't want this dilemma to continue for more than 6 months from now, so am looking at inputs from you guys.

Which one should i go for? The Heart or The Mind? And why? It has to make sense to the heart and head, atleast to a small extent

Last edited by GTO : 5th January 2011 at 18:32. Reason: Adding link to Thar review at the start of the thread :)
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:16   #2
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

i would say Thar CRDe would be the right choice for you. its might be expensive but with a ownership spread over 8-10 years, it would be VFM over Gypsy.

CRDe Thar answers all your questions about long crusies along with the OTR and nothing to worry about the re-sale if you ever want to sell it ever after 10 years, it would be highly in demand after those 10 years!

look how classic and legend cant be found in good condition if you want to buy one right now!

dont worry about the Jimny, it aint coming till 2012!
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:21   #3
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

I am sure you are pretty much well informed about both these vehicles than most in the forum. So i doubt you getting any incremental info that will help you make the choice...

since you can wait for 6 more months why break your head now ??
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:23   #4
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Jaggu, i'm in the same boat as you. Atleast you have the Dwarf. I sold mine. The Hitler was me in the video!

Anyways, once a jeeper, always a jeeper. That's me. I used friends' gypsies over the last couple of OTRs and it just doesn't cut it out. Not doubting the Gypsy's capability at all. It's things like ride quality, articulation, revving up, etc which one subconsciously compares to the jeep.
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:34   #5
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Gypsy. Why?

1. You've already driven a Mahindra 4x4; this'll be a different experience.

2. This may not be important to you, but IMO, a Gypsy has more presence and "2nd look" value on the road than a Jeep (too many wannabe types around with Mayapuri style vehicles, rather than genuine jeep lovers).

3. The clincher is given below:

Quote:
I save INR 74,000/- Which will buy me 1194 liter's of petrol = 14,328 kms (Avg 12kmpl) = 2 years of my usage. This is the crudest and simplest savings i can make.

Last edited by comfortablynumb : 24th December 2010 at 16:37.
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:44   #6
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

I would suggest you to go for the Thar. Since you are going to keep it for atleast 8-10 years. The diesel advantage of the Thar will negate the initial savings of Gypsy.
Besides the Thar is marketed as a niche product which will hold its value lot better than a gypsy would.
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:45   #7
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parm View Post
i would say Thar CRDe would be the right choice for you. its might be expensive but with a ownership spread over 8-10 years, it would be VFM over Gypsy.

CRDe Thar answers all your questions about long crusies along with the OTR and nothing to worry about the re-sale if you ever want to sell it ever after 10 years, it would be highly in demand after those 10 years!

look how classic and legend cant be found in good condition if you want to buy one right now!
I did not understand the first point, VFM over the years. With costlier parts and repair bill (which any OTR vehicle will incur), how does it become cheaper? Just by better FE and the current fuel price?

Coming back to second hand value, even Gypsy holds pretty well. How many of us has had luck finding decent ones in second hand market at a reasonable price.

Yes the classic image, Thar will win!

Quote:
Originally Posted by narayan View Post
I am sure you are pretty much well informed about both these vehicles than most in the forum. So i doubt you getting any incremental info that will help you make the choice...

since you can wait for 6 more months why break your head now ??
Am flattered but am not able to conclude on my own and hence the post. And i meant i dont want to wait 6 months with this, if i can decide earlier. Sign the cheque and the wait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Jaggu, i'm in the same boat as you. Atleast you have the Dwarf. I sold mine. The Hitler was me in the video!

Anyways, once a jeeper, always a jeeper. That's me. I used friends' gypsies over the last couple of OTRs and it just doesn't cut it out. Not doubting the Gypsy's capability at all. It's things like ride quality, articulation, revving up, etc which one subconsciously compares to the jeep.
That is where my problem is, my first 4x4 experience was in an old willys. But i have owned a Gypsy also, and that too with 1 liter engine. Now i use the hurricane engine CJ3B and nothing can come close to the CJ3B in stock form.

But on the other hand am comfortable with gypsy and jeeps, i still get to use them in the same terrain and i really cant say one is "really better" compared to the other. Somwarpet and Kuttikanam trips increased my respect for the gypsy, though the events were projected as jeep terrain.

Ride quality least of my problem, articulation is something i can live with and can work on (gypsy has enough options). Only the engine wins hands down that way in a Thar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
Gypsy. Why?

1. You've already driven a Mahindra 4x4; this'll be a different experience.

2. This may not be important to you, but IMO, a Gypsy has more presence and "2nd look" value on the road than a Jeep (too many wannabe types around with Mayapuri style vehicles, rather than genuine jeep lovers).

3. The clincher is given below:
1) I know Thar is very different from any of the other experience i had with M&M. I still am looking forward to the test drive reports and maybe an actual test drive, if dealers respond.

3) Argh i am strong hearted person and that IS a big PROBLEM!

EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedmiester View Post
The diesel advantage of the Thar will negate the initial savings of Gypsy.
Besides the Thar is marketed as a niche product which will hold its value lot better than a gypsy would.
I wont give much value to diesel being cheaper, the way our economy is moving subsidies can be removed well within the next few years.

But yes Thar = Niche = Image. Only problem is the Di! And I HATE M&M for doing it, atleast subconsciously!

Last edited by Jaggu : 24th December 2010 at 16:47.
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Old 24th December 2010, 16:58   #8
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Why not just an overdrive on DwarF? That's going to be 75K max (They do exist I believe) and you have highway cruising which seems to be your only issue. You only need to be able to cruise faster and not break any records right?

Now about the savings:
Average(8.42,7.68) = 8.05 L
Savings: 7.30 L
Translated to Petrol: 140K Kms ~ Roughly the mileage covered by all vehicles on all OTRs in B'lore and nearby areas

I think your vehicle DwarF is awesome apart from the cruising thing you mention.

Cheers,
Adi

P.S. - Am really bored at work and hence the calculations above.
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:16   #9
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Moreover when you have the rest of the gang in Gypsy and MM's, you eventually get a complex while cruising on a highway and they will curse you, waiting for you to catch up!
Oh, so Khan saab is instigating you huh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
1) I know Thar is very different from any of the other experience i had with M&M. I still am looking forward to the test drive reports and maybe an actual test drive, if dealers respond.
Please test drive the Thar CRDe as well as DI before taking a final decision. This is something I fail to understand, in the forum you are among the few members who have owned / driven / used a Jeep and Gypsy (and know their pros and cons) for quite a long time, still you are finding it difficult to arrive at a conclusion? I guess, it is also the reason why you are in this dilemma.

Spike

PS- Please test drive!
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:27   #10
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVR View Post
Why not just an overdrive on DwarF?
=======
You only need to be able to cruise faster and not break any records right?
=========
I think your vehicle DwarF is awesome apart from the cruising thing you mention..
Thought has crossed my mind but am yet to see a living example running without any hiccups. I need to go take a peek at Tramways thread to see how it is performing now, not been in touch with that thread.

On the other hand, i like to keep the mechanicals stock on DwArF. My inspiration is DKG's CJ3B. One way this dilemma has reinforced my feelings towards DwArF and he is soon to go in for a small make over grinnnnnnnnnnn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Oh, so Khan saab is instigating you huh
Yes he is! He always tries to bully DwArF on the highway! But...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Please test drive the Thar CRDe as well as DI before taking a final decision.
But how will Di help me? I cant register it in BLR and if i register it in Kerala (which is going to be a pain, but possible), i will have the headache of dealing with the RTO's here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
This is something I fail to understand, in the forum you are among the few members who have owned / driven / used a Jeep and Gypsy (and know their pros and cons) for quite a long time, still you are finding it difficult to arrive at a conclusion? I guess, it is also the reason why you are in this dilemma.
You should be a psychologist Spike! Yeah the more you know, more you get confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
PS- Please test drive!
One of the first to register online! Call it a twisted way of checking out M&M marketing and customer orientation beyond design and R&D department
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:31   #11
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Jaggu,
I have same version as that of AVR, but with a twist.

In your CJ3B, if only ride quality and Speed are much of a concern/problem, then why not get a Diesel engine plonked into it ( say a CRDe engine / MM Major engine).(Also gearbox). Then spruce up the Suspension to improve the ride quality as well as articulation.
This will definetly one heck of a Willys CJ3B for sure.
In this you save a lot (almost around 6L when compared with Thar), but the FUN remains the same if not more.
Heck after 10 years you may get very good resale value too..

Just give a thought.
If I were you, I would have done this,
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:34   #12
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

According to me Its like..

If CJ/MM jeep is a Beedi then Gypsy is a cigarette.
But Thar is a "sigaar" so follow your Heart Its time for a Change

- Sreejesh
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:39   #13
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

HI! This is quite a conundrum (hope i spelt it right!). If it were left to me and i was really serious about my off-roading then Thar would be the way to go. I hear it also comes with a Borg-Warner Transfer case, which can come in handy on the sticky bits and its got that off-roading brutish kind of look. I mean seriously don't Gypsies remind you of Delhi Police (can that be a good thing, i wonder?).

Anyways whichever you choose i do hope you have a fantastic time with it.
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:41   #14
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreejeshmp View Post
According to me Its like..

If CJ/MM jeep is a Beedi then Gypsy is a cigarette.
But Thar is a "sigaar" so follow your Heart Its time for a Change

- Sreejesh
Statutory Warning: Smoking Is Injurious to Health, oh yeah our vehicles smoke too

If you only ask me to decide between Gypsy and Thar, I will take Thar. considering all your description. However in both the case customer pays high. Though Thar price is not justified to me.
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Old 24th December 2010, 17:43   #15
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Default re: Unreasonable dilemma! Thar Vs Gypsy! Mostly resolved Page 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushrutha View Post
Jaggu,
I have same version as that of AVR, but with a twist.
And what a twist!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushrutha View Post
In your CJ3B, if only ride quality and Speed are much of a concern/problem, then why not get a Diesel engine plonked into it ( say a CRDe engine / MM Major engine)
----------------
Just give a thought.
If I were you, I would have done this,
No way! I don't want to kill my poor DwArF! He is special coz he has the original Hurricane engine! Moment i fiddle with it, it a goner!!! I would rather buy a junk CJ and do all these mods! Or just be a passenger for the long trips.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sreejeshmp View Post
According to me Its like..

If CJ/MM jeep is a Beedi then Gypsy is a cigarette.
But Thar is a "sigaar" so follow your Heart Its time for a Change

- Sreejesh
LOL! good one! And everybody advises me to quit!


EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by autobahner View Post
HI! This is quite a conundrum (hope i spelt it right!). If it were left to me and i was really serious about my off-roading then Thar would be the way to go. I hear it also comes with a Borg-Warner Transfer case, which can come in handy on the sticky bits and its got that off-roading brutish kind of look. I mean seriously don't Gypsies remind you of Delhi Police (can that be a good thing, i wonder?).

Anyways whichever you choose i do hope you have a fantastic time with it.
Yes it is a conundrum! and borg warner is not the be it and end it. As far as the looks go, i really dont care. Rather cant be bothered coz of my age lol

Many thanks for the well wishes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trammway View Post
If you only ask me to decide between Gypsy and Thar, I will take Thar. considering all your description. However in both the case customer pays high. Though Thar price is not justified to me.
First you share your feedback on the overdrive you put on CJ?!!

Last edited by Jaggu : 24th December 2010 at 17:48.
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