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View Poll Results: Which 4x4 Would You Go For?
I am going to book the Thar immediately 2 1.67%
I want the Thar, but I will wait for v2, or for initial issues to be sorted out 35 29.17%
I will stick to my old MM540/550/CJ/Gypsy/LR/Jonga 23 19.17%
I will buy an old MM540/550/CJ/Gypsy/LR/Jonga and restore it 16 13.33%
I will buy one of the premium 4x4 SUV's 13 10.83%
I will wait for the Jimny/similar to be launched 18 15.00%
I don't get this Jeep thing at all 3 2.50%
I will buy a Gypsy 5 4.17%
I will buy Thar MDi 5 4.17%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13th January 2011, 20:51   #46
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Why provide the groundwork for fitting an AC if you were going to nullify the warranty the minute anyone actually did so? I'm sure the same goes for things like tyres and alloys too.
Provided you fit AC at the dealership. Moment you do it outside say tata bye bye to warranty.

What you buy is purely a personal choice, peace of mind, life style or rugged offroader. Proof of the pudding is in the sales figures and this poll here does not mean a thing.

Another very important point for new vehicle is availability of Financing
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Old 13th January 2011, 20:58   #47
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

Are we adding the Trax Gurkha to the options? And I agree we should remove the mythical Jimny from the options.

Is plonking a Scorpion engine with all the wiring harness and ECM and all the mumbo jumbo going to be really reliable? Reason I ask this is because we are doubting a Factory fitted NEF's water fordability but comfortable with a plug and play job for this engine on a NGCS550?

The DCM high torque engine would be a better bet.

Last edited by IronWolf : 13th January 2011 at 21:00.
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Old 13th January 2011, 21:03   #48
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

Why not ECM install is not really rocket science, its already been done and we have better control with water proofing the install.
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Old 14th January 2011, 07:22   #49
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
Reason I ask this is because we are doubting a Factory fitted NEF's water fordability but comfortable with a plug and play job for this engine on a NGCS550?

The DCM high torque engine would be a better bet.

The NEF engines are amazing with water fordability. I have taken my X bolero storm upto floorboard/bumper level water and she moves in style..both slow as well as fast!!

The only drawback I faced was the water splashing in front onto the windscreen of the vehicle, hence had to keep wipers on incase of a fast dip. But no sweat man, THAT ENGINE WILL DRINK WATER for breakfast, lunch and dinner and hold on without a leak!!

Ofcourse I had my worries about the front mounted intercooler and the flimsy bumper but..thats
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Old 14th January 2011, 09:51   #50
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

Are the Hyderabad folks not on this thread? Why do I see zero people against the "I am booking my Thar immediately" option? Basically, Mahindra mentioned team bhp for the Thar launch. But no one here seems to put their check book where their mouth is??
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Old 14th January 2011, 10:00   #51
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Are the Hyderabad folks not on this thread? Why do I see zero people against the "I am booking my Thar immediately" option? Basically, Mahindra mentioned team bhp for the Thar launch. But no one here seems to put their check book where their mouth is??
It is a mystery indeed, especially when Spike is claiming that bookings are going well, and they have got bookings in excess of three figures from one state alone.

Maybe the first option needs to be changed to 'I have booked my Thar already/I am going to book it immediately'

Can the mods oblige?
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Old 14th January 2011, 10:06   #52
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
If you had found the right person the first time, you wouldnt have made such an opinion.
Jaggu, my Jeep has been going to Milestone since the time that workshop opened. That's over 12 years and yes, I do still have the same opinion. Milestone is headed by Ferdi who is a customer-centric chap, owns a Classic, has worked on Mahindras for time immemorial, knows solutions specific to Mahindras that others don't, has access to whatever OEM parts I want for my Classic and loves Jeeps. In other words, he is amongst the best to maintain a Classic in India.

Quote:
Again when you bought your jeep were you sure what you wanted to do with it?
I knew I will:

- Learn how to offroad in it

- Never sell it

Nothing's changed.

Quote:
One shot build after identifying right donor vehicle, garage and planning is very different to what we guys do with constant rebuilds.
My donor vehicle - the Classic - has been through a complete mechanical rebuild using brand new Mahindra parts (including an engine) and Mahindra-trained labour, headed by a Jeeper (i.e. Ferdi). I don't suppose mechanical rebuilds get much better than this.

Quote:
Parts are still cheaper and will be cheaper for ol school jeeps.
They sure are. However, the failure rate of Mahindra parts is also higher than parts from Maruti / Hyundai / Honda / Toyota.

Quote:
Add depreciation and then you will see why you are wrong!
There is no right or wrong with depreciation. It's decided by hard numbers.

Depreciation when buying a new vehicle: As an entrepreneur, I can claim depreciation on a new Thar and save on taxes. Effectively, a vehicle can become 30% cheaper for me over the years. Of course, this option is only for entrepreneurs, but hey, we do have a good number on board. And whether you are an entrepreneur or not, the next point on depreciation is applicable to all.

Depreciation when selling a vehicle: A single-owner 5 year old Thar with complete documented service history, factory build, 60,000 documented kms, comprehensive insurance and consisting of mostly factory parts....or a 20 year old MM540 with multiple owners, no real gauge of how many total kms, atleast 1 / 2 / 3 engine rebuilds or swaps, having nearly all parts from the after-market (some unbranded), needing a road fitness certificate and third party insurance. Which one you think will fetch better resale? Or a relative comparo : A 20 year old rebuilt Gypsy today versus a 5 year old King. Which has better resale?. Please don't bring Mods into the picture. Customisations cost additional $$$ and can be added to any vehicle, whether old or new.

Other reasons why a brand new Jeep will work out cheaper:

- Cheaper interest rates: On new car loans.

- Warranty: A two year warranty is worth its weight in Gold.

- Insurance: A brand new Thar can be comprehensively insured for 10 years, for its book value. Good luck when your rebuilt 6 lakh rupee Jeep gets stolen, and you are sitting on a worthless (in this situation) 3rd party insurance (as all of us ol' Jeepers are). Open Jeeps are for obvious reason easier to break into, and have huge demand in some States. I know of too many horror stories from CJ / MM owners in MH. That's why my Jeep is parked in a garage, and has two anti-theft devices installed. How many people have the luxury of enclosed parking?

Time: Booking & financing a Thar in 2 days, and rebuilding a Jeep over a couple of months. Not everyone has the time to spend in a workshop every weekend, and using their free time to source parts / make 10 page to-do lists. Plus, you can easily calculate the worth of your time (and add a monetary number too). Time is money and that's a fact.

Reliability: While it is possible to get good reliability from a completely rebuilt Jeep, a brand new Jeep will be that much more reliable. Factory build is factory build. Period. Anyone can get a reliable brand new Jeep, however it takes a lot of effort to get a reliable rebuild Jeep.

Quote:
I would say am better off spending piece meal coz am not eating into my savings/investments in one shot.
Heard of EMIs ? Depending on your papers and the financing company, you can get a car loan of 5 / 6 / 7 years, at a interest rate as low as 9%. Show me a garage or rebuild specialist that will give you this. If you prefer paying small amounts over a longer period of time, then & indeed you should go new only.

Additionally, there's the opportunity cost when cheap loans are available. There's a reason why people choose car loans....even those who have the cash on hand. In short, take a loan and 10% and use that capital elsewhere for 15 - 20% ROI.

Quote:
If things like silencer rattle etc you are referring then that will happen to any brand new vehicle.
I'm not talking about rattles, they even happen to brand new Marutis

I'm talking of niggles, of which I've experienced innumerable in the last near-2.0 lakh kms of owning a Mahindra. Electricals going kaput, gauges stop working, oil leaks, brakes getting stuck, car pulling to one end strangely, unpredictable overheating, things going loose and so on. I think the niggles are well documented on multiple threads across the forum.

While I agree that a rebuilt Jeep can be reliable, no Mahindra Jeep will be free of niggles. NOTE : When I say reliable, I am talking of no breakdowns (and not niggles).

Quote:
As i said its a very wrong comparison.
Not really. Many Jeepers today are looking at two options; a brand new Thar or a rebuilding one from scratch. It is an incredibly relevant comparison in today's time, especially after the launch of the Thar.

Quote:
Am not taking names but there are couple of very good builders now
I think all of you should start a thread on recommended 4x4 builders. It'll greatly help those who aren't familiar with the scene, yet have the desire & $$$. Much like the Team-BHP Directory.

Quote:
Anyday i would prefer them, if am doing a ground up restoration and am sure i can build a jeep like Tejas and be very happy with it at relatively cheaper investments.
Why are you buying a brand new Gypsy then? Why not rebuild one? There are plenty of options available and the rebuild process, if anything, will be simpler than a Mahindra...thanks to the Gypsy's inherently better quality! All the points you mention in favour of rebuilding an MM540 are just as applicable to the Gypsy.
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Old 14th January 2011, 10:26   #53
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Are the Hyderabad folks not on this thread? Why do I see zero people against the "I am booking my Thar immediately" option? Basically, Mahindra mentioned team bhp for the Thar launch. But no one here seems to put their check book where their mouth is??
First of Hyderabad folks to post here.

Good thread listing various options. About 15 days back I wanted the THAR but given its price point and the glaring absences, it was a hard choice. I even started a thread and more of less am certain. I'm not booking/buying the THAR V1. I would like to buy THAR V2 with AC/HT but I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon. So based on my need and finding the least negative, almost zeroing on the Getaway 4X4.

P.S: The Hyderabad launch has been pushed back by more than a month from Jan 28th to March

P.P.S: Voted for THAR V2 as am willing to book that if there are sound bytes about it coming soon.
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Old 14th January 2011, 11:53   #54
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
So based on my need and finding the least negative, almost zeroing on the Getaway 4X4.
I d say it is a very sensible decision in not booking the Thar in its current crude version as your only vehicle (I presume).

Coming to the Getaway, would you really use its tub enough to compromise on its length, the lack of space in its last row and handling? Else what is wrong with the plain and simple Scorpio 4wd?
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Old 14th January 2011, 12:10   #55
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Jaggu, my Jeep has been going to Milestone since the time that workshop opened.
=======
In other words, he is amongst the best to maintain a Classic in India
I have no idea about garage you take her to. But something is not right, with the statement. My guess all these were done in parts like i do, so when you fix something, something else fail. This is not what i call complete rebuild in one shot. Add to that your experimenting with engines, i for a fact know that once you fiddle with something like that, it takes a long while and great deal of effort to revert back.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I knew I will:

- Learn how to offroad in it
And how to live with a 4x4? offroad in one and things will go wrong, be it brand new Thar or Gypsy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
My donor vehicle - the Classic - has been through a complete mechanical rebuild using brand new Mahindra parts (including an engine) and Mahindra-trained labour, headed by a Jeeper (i.e. Ferdi). I don't suppose mechanical rebuilds get much better than this.
Again was this done at one shot? A complete restoration Vs over a period of time are not the same. I have done it and i know how frustrating it is. One of the good jobs that i have seen here is Nishanth's 550 (documented in TBHP), but we all know the pain he took to rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
They sure are. However, the failure rate of Mahindra parts is also higher than parts from Maruti / Hyundai / Honda / Toyota.
No debate and same applys to Thar. Afterall its a M&M, good thing its 20 years younger to 70's jeep on design front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
There is no right or wrong with depreciation. It's decided by hard numbers.
Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Depreciation when buying a new vehicle: As an entrepreneur, I can claim depreciation on a new Thar and save on taxes.
=====
And whether you are an entrepreneur or not, the next point on depreciation is applicable to all.
Unfortunately majority of us are salaried and cannot claim depreciation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Depreciation when selling a vehicle: A single-owner 5 year old Thar with complete documented service history, factory build, 60,000 documented kms, comprehensive insurance and consisting of mostly factory parts....
=======
Please don't bring Mods into the picture. Customisations cost additional $$$ and can be added to any vehicle, whether old or new.
Isnt it too early to comment on Thar depreciation Right now classics are selling at a premium, but that is for a very different reason.

I expect Thar's to go at 3-3.5 lakhs after 3 years (ie without any offroad damages on it), same price most of the well built 550's goes for. Unless Thar is gonna create a huge dent in their market value.

Keep in mind with all the mods 550 cost 5 lakhs where as Thar without any mods cost 7+ lakhs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Other reasons why a brand new Jeep will work out cheaper:

- Cheaper interest rates: On new car loans.
Again for a salaried person interest is an interest and this cheap interest rate is also debatable with a very volatile market like ours. One day its 9 next day it is 12 % lol But yes it offers great flexibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
- Warranty: A two year warranty is worth its weight in Gold.
101% worth it for a lifestyle use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
- Insurance: A brand new Thar can be comprehensively insured for 10 years, for its book value.
=====
That's why my Jeep is parked in a garage, and has two anti-theft devices installed. How many people have the luxury of enclosed parking?
Again 100% true but then again i would bank on the insurance more on accidental repair than theft.

Personally i think, if you have a vehicle, be it a cycle or a merc, you have to figure out ways to keep it safe in this world. This is what i feel. Thar in the current form is a juicy proposition for chor bazaar!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Time: Booking & financing a Thar in 2 days, and rebuilding a Jeep over a couple of months.
===== Time is money and that's a fact.
Again no right or wrong, the connect that most of us have with our jeeps are due to the builds But yes we have an advantage of being salaried, weekends we are not wasting our salary time he he he and very honestly very few will actually like it. So another point for you.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Reliability: While it is possible to get good reliability from a completely rebuilt Jeep, a brand new Jeep will be that much more reliable. Factory build is factory build. Period. Anyone can get a reliable brand new Jeep, however it takes a lot of effort to get a reliable rebuild Jeep.
Yes it will be atleast 5% better.

But you are talking about M&M right, hope you read wolf's observation in the garage about a brand new Crde being worked upon. Till V2 i will keep my fingers crossed, for any product from M&M and Tata. Well that's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Heard of EMIs ?
=====Show me a garage or rebuild specialist that will give you this.
======
If you prefer paying small amounts over a longer period of time, then & indeed you should go new only.
Yes last line is what i meant and i have already posted above that financing is a great plus for any brand new 4x4 purchase. But for a person like me with another large emi, would prefer to have peace of mind deciding my own emi for jeep builds. It might be a very personal reasoning but i think there are many who go through this dilemma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Additionally, there's the opportunity cost when cheap loans are available.
=======In short, take a loan and 10% and use that capital elsewhere for 15 - 20% ROI.
Let us be realistic here, there are very few who do this. But yes i think its a great thing to do, if you can manage a flat rate emi also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm talking of niggles, of which I've experienced innumerable in the last near-2.0 lakh kms of owning a Mahindra. =========== I think the niggles are well documented on multiple threads across the forum.
Common what makes you think this is not going to happen to a brand new Thar which is going to be put to same usage as your classic? Yes first few months but the day you take it offroad your trouble starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
While I agree that a rebuilt Jeep can be reliable, no Mahindra Jeep will be free of niggles. NOTE : When I say reliable, I am talking of no breakdowns (and not niggles).
I can show you one or two which haven't, inspite of being constantly abused. As i said its all in the rebuild, where, when, how and by whom matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not really. Many Jeepers today are looking at two options; a brand new Thar or a rebuilding one from scratch. It is an incredibly relevant comparison in today's time, especially after the launch of the Thar.
Very obvious replies from me also.

- Lifestyle jeeper's / adventure tourer's- Thar
- Offroad jeeper's - BYOJ Build your own jeep
- Wanna do both with minimal compromise- Gypsy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I think all of you should start a thread on recommended 4x4 builders. It'll greatly help those who aren't familiar with the scene, yet have the desire & $$$. Much like the Team-BHP Directory
Will recommend a name or two soon for BLR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Why are you buying a brand new Gypsy then?
===========
All the points you mention in favour of rebuilding an MM540 are just as applicable to the Gypsy.
I will tell you my personal reasons:

- Simply put my needs are a combination of Lifestyle + Offroad. But both are equally important and Gypsy is the ONLY platform available right now which fits the bill. (Remember i started last hunt with MPFI gypsy's before buying DwArF, and then i fell in love). Relative refinement and comfort, offroad ability, upgrade options for offroad and bullet proof reliability.

- Assuming iam keeping DwArF i need finance! i can not afford paying for either a rebuild OR a new purchase within this year.

- If its rebuild then it has to be a 550 with an upgraded engine. Am not a big fan of 550 after being used to the agile and refined DwArF.

Hence Gypsy all the way for my need. Its a 100% logical decision this time.
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Old 14th January 2011, 12:22   #56
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Coming to the Getaway, would you really use its tub enough to compromise on its length, the lack of space in its last row and handling? Else what is wrong with the plain and simple Scorpio 4wd?
I go a lot for trekking, camping rock climbing and the load section in Bolero / Scorpio is not big enough for my camping gear. So a bigger load bay is required.
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Old 14th January 2011, 13:18   #57
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I go a lot for trekking, camping rock climbing and the load section in Bolero / Scorpio is not big enough for my camping gear. So a bigger load bay is required.
The middle seats in the 7 seater scorpio 4X4 flip over completely creating a generous loading area.
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Old 14th January 2011, 14:01   #58
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The middle seats in the 7 seater scorpio 4X4 flip over completely creating a generous loading area.
So is the case in non 4x4. Its MUCH more in the 8 seater though. Just throw away the last forward facing seats. I have moved my house more than once using that bay.
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Old 14th January 2011, 14:10   #59
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The middle seats in the 7 seater scorpio 4X4 flip over completely creating a generous loading area.
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Originally Posted by Red Liner View Post
So is the case in non 4x4. Its MUCH more in the 8 seater though. Just throw away the last forward facing seats. I have moved my house more than once using that bay.
Yes you can move houses, I agree. Not long distance journeys in comfort!

Crash pads used for bouldering, camping tents et al can't be fitted properly in the Bolero / Scorpio. Heck even luggage for 4 people on a Leh trip also becomes a squeeze. I know my need and it is a pick-up.

Also the cheapest 4X4 in the Scorpio range is the Getaway by atleast 2 Lakhs.

Anyways I think we are digressing from the main topic here which is "What are the best 4X4 Options"

I think we should look at sub 10 Lakhs and 10 Lakhs+ separately.

Cheers
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Old 14th January 2011, 19:54   #60
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Default Re: 4x4 Options in 2011

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But something is not right, with the statement.
What's not right? Mechanically, the Jeep is in top shape ever since the rebuild.

If you mean the smaller (and VERY annoying niggles), well, they were even there when she was brand new.

Need some body work though. It's 7 years since I last got a paint job and living next to the Ocean is showing on her BIG TIME.

Quote:
This is not what i call complete rebuild in one shot.
Quote:
Again was this done at one shot? A complete restoration Vs over a period of time are not the same.
Complete Mechanical Rebuild in one shot (Mahindra Classic 4x4. 2.5 Liter Diesel. Back on the road!).

Quote:
Add to that your experimenting with engines
Completely left behind. Have not faced any mechanical issues since the 2.5. Not a single problem of the last 3 years (since rebuild) is related to the lousy 1.8 petrol swap.

Quote:
No debate and same applys to Thar. Afterall its a M&M, good thing its 20 years younger to 70's jeep on design front.
True. But I'm willing to bet that the failure rate on a rebuilt Jeep will be more than on a Thar. Simple reason : Law of averages. It's very hard to build a perfect Jeep, yet buying a brand new Thar is as simple as showroom delivery.

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Unfortunately majority of us are salaried and cannot claim depreciation.
True. Just noting for those who are (atleast 20% of the Jeep owners onboard).

Quote:
Isnt it too early to comment on Thar depreciation
Yes, but we can safely presume that a 5 year old Thar will have better resale than a 20 year old rebuilt Jeep. Both stock. Like I said, compare the prices of a 2005 Gypsy King to a 1990....no matter how well the '90 is rebuilt.

Quote:
I expect Thar's to go at 3-3.5 lakhs after 3 years (ie without any offroad damages on it)
Fat chance a diesel Jeep will lose 50 - 60% of its price in 3 years. Atleast none have till date.

Quote:
Keep in mind with all the mods 550 cost 5 lakhs where as Thar without any mods cost 7+ lakhs.
Nearly all rebuilt 550s run the IDI / DI engine (NOT common-rail). Apples to apples. A new Thar MDI is also available at 4.99 ex-showroom.

Quote:
Again for a salaried person interest is an interest and this cheap interest rate is also debatable with a very volatile market like ours. One day its 9 next day it is 12 % lol But yes it offers great flexibility.
Whether 9% or 12, still cheaper & more flexible than paying for your 5 - 6 lakh rupee rebuilt Jeep over a period of 3 - 6 months (which is how much a complete rebuild should take). Now, many people don't even have 6 lakhs on hand. The only option they have is a personal loan at a whopping 18%.

Quote:
101% worth it for a lifestyle use.
I think there is some misunderstanding here. I have offroaded in my Classic from DAY ONE and have still - successfully- got warranty claims. If a Thar has an engine problem, no matter whether it has offroaded or not, it will be covered by warranty. The only thing that won't be is damage from offroad use (say, water in the engine). No one covers that....even Subaru & Mitsubishi don't offer warranty on damage from track days.

Atleast the Thar has a 2 year warranty. A rebuilt Jeep has zero.

Quote:
Again 100% true but then again i would bank on the insurance more on accidental repair than theft.
A new Jeep's insurance will cover your accidental repair. Not so with the 3rd party on a 10+ year old rebuilt Jeep.

Quote:
Personally i think, if you have a vehicle, be it a cycle or a merc, you have to figure out ways to keep it safe in this world. This is what i feel.
Jaggu, no one gets their vehicles stolen on purpose. Yet, thefts & accidents do happen. There is absolutely no comparison in the value of a comprehensive insurance coverage versus a lousy third party.

Quote:
Yes it will be atleast 5% better.
While we can endlessly debate on how much more reliable, I am glad you agree it will be more...however little the margin.

Quote:
But you are talking about M&M right, hope you read wolf's observation in the garage about a brand new Crde being worked upon.
Lets be realistic here and leave reliability to the ownership reports. The highest probability you have of catching a brand new vehicle being worked upon is in the workshop. I can show you Hondas which had 0 kms and still needed work. Does that make it unreliable?

On the other hand, lets consider the Bolero & Scorpio from which the Thar borrows heavily. Either (especially the former) have a good reliability record, several of which are documented on the forum itself.

And while on probability, again, the chance of ending up with a reliable brand new Thar is MUCH higher than in a rebuild (difference in effort, quality of labour and the sheer simplicity of walking into a showroom!)

Quote:
But for a person like me with another large emi, would prefer to have peace of mind deciding my own emi for jeep builds.
I'd love to know more about how you plan to completely rebuild a 5 lakh Jeep, and still have lesser monthly outflow than a 5 / 6 / 7 year loan. It's simple math. 5 lakhs for a rebuild over 3 - 6 months, or 5 lakhs loan over 5 / 6 / 7 years.

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Common what makes you think this is not going to happen to a brand new Thar which is going to be put to same usage as your classic?
It surely will, even without offroad. What I am talking about is, everything else being the same, there is a higher probability of more niggles in a rebuilt Jeep than a factory built brand new Thar.

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Will recommend a name or two soon for BLR.
Awesome! I'm sure it'll greatly help others (especially our forum guests).

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Hence Gypsy all the way for my need. Its a 100% logical decision this time.
No arguing with the peace of mind that a Gypsy gives. My question was something else : Why don't you rebuild a Gypsy instead of buying a brand new one? All the points you offer in favour of a Jeep rebuild (over a brand new Jeep) are equally applicable to a Gypsy rebuild (over a brand new Gypsy).

Last edited by GTO : 14th January 2011 at 19:57.
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