Concert hall in a Safari?

[DerAlte]

Pranam Gurujis,

I have searched high and low through the complete ICE pages but alas ...

Safari seems to me one of the most 'ICE-unfriendly' cars - unless one goes overboard modifying door panels and taking away whatever comfort the jump seats afford. On the other hand, there is no talk here of leveraging the massive cabin volume of the Safari for a better listening experience.

My choice of music is Jazz, Blues, Classical (Indian and Western), old rock... I just wanted to a add a touch of bass, as in cellos and tubas sounding like thenselves and not ship's horns (or Inspector Clouseau in the sound proof room in the new Pink Panther), but I didn't find anything in door speakers that would achieve that, with or without amps! (Sorry, Sam, not even JBL or Infinity. I guess you haven't visited the Lavelle Road Bangalore joint in a while :( )

Ergo, subwoofers - but that means losing the rear compartment to monstrous boxes.

1. Does anyone have any ideas under the front seats? Shallow sub-woofers such as Pio TS-SW1241D, R-F P3SD412 etc.?
2. One 12" or 2 of 10" or 8" for my needs? I don't want to be overwhelmed by boom with windows up, let alone thinking of waking up neighbours
3. Anyone sells readymade kick-panels in Bangalore? Should improve imaging for the driver, right? (With the right speakers, I mean)



Thanks in advance

[navin]

1. I dont think that even the hsallow sub will fit under the car seat but then I have no idea what space you have there.


2. 8" woofers (all things remaining equal) are usually shallower than their 12" counterparts. Why not try a few. In fact you could even try a set of 4 6" woofers. Blaupunkt makes a 6" woofer that is shallow I just dont remember the model number).

3. You'd have to fabricate your kick panel and grill locally. I dont think there are readily available anywhere in India.

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

1. Does anyone have any ideas under the front seats? Shallow sub-woofers such as Pio TS-SW1241D, R-F P3SD412 etc.?
2. One 12" or 2 of 10" or 8" for my needs? I don't want to be overwhelmed by boom with windows up, let alone thinking of waking up neighbours
3. Anyone sells readymade kick-panels in Bangalore? Should improve imaging for the driver, right? (With the right speakers, I mean)

1. Could you post a pic of the space under your seats? And maybe the max possible height & width for a box to go under them? (No idea of how much space there is under them).

Here are some threads on under-seat subs:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sound-...a-install.html (Innova Install)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...t-woofers.html (Under Seat Woofers)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...subwoofer.html (under seat subwoofer)

2. You definitely will need at least a 12". Ideally 2 x 10" or even 2 x 12" (for best results, bass-wise) or if you are ok with one big box, a 15". There's a lot of space to fill with bass out there

There are some sub-drivers that are pretty thin like one in the Blaupunkt ODx series (I don't know if it is still available). I've seen some Pio subs (on crutchfield or some other website that are also the shallow-basket type) And there are some subs like IDQs that need only very small boxes. Maye 2 10" IDQ in small boxes/one partitioned in the boot will not take-up a lot of space.

When you go for multiple subs, you'll need to spend on extra subs as well as a more powerful amp to drive them. (As against one big sub and one reasonably powerful amp). But the results of 2 subs will definitely be worth the expense.

So here comes the magic word -- Budget?

3. I don't know of any sources for ready-made kick-panels either. I'd searched (on the net) for quite a while a few months back when I'd needed them.

But since you're in Bangalore, you shouldn't have a problem getting them made. Anwar of AutoFusion, Koramangala does great work with FG.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

2. You definitely will need at least a 12". Ideally 2 x 10" or even 2 x 12" (for best results, bass-wise) or if you are ok with one big box, a 15". There's a lot of space to fill with bass out there

I don't know why you say that (maybe you're by now very used to giving LBM advice ), but from what I understood from his post and taste of music, I think he misses just the lowest octaves of sound in whatever he has been hearing. In my opinion, he can have just one 10" and get that part sorted. Or else, a front speaker that can play really low aided with generous damping.

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

I don't know why you say that (maybe you're by now very used to giving LBM advice ), but from what I understood from his post and taste of music, I think he misses just the lowest octaves of sound in whatever he has been hearing. In my opinion, he can have just one 10" and get that part sorted. Or else, a front speaker that can play really low aided with generous damping.

me giving l_b_m advice? The other way 'round maybe

I really think at least a 12" will be needed in a Safari. I'd heard a 10" in a Safari (JBL in a sealed box, in the boot area) which was reasonably powered, but I didn't feel the sub cut it, bass-wise. Ok, this is based on how I like my music (mostly blues, bit of jazz, no classical yet except for having recently discovered Yo-Yo Ma).

But I'm sure you'd be in a better position to comment on this (I'm not being sarcastic here). [Ran out of smilies, or there would be one here]

[low_bass_makker]

hmm...what were which ........

[DerAlte]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

Originally Posted by hydrashok

1. Could you post a pic of the space under your seats? And maybe the max possible height & width for a box to go under them? (No idea of how much space there is under them).

This is under the Driver's seat - oops, an ECU is taking away most of the space:


This is under the Passenger seat:


Dimensions (WxDxH): 12"x14"x5". The 2 strips limit the available height to 4.5-5". Without the strips it is 7" - I think the strips can be repositioned as they only keep the seat mounting tracks parallel.

What can we do in this situation?

Originally Posted by hydrashok

So here comes the magic word -- Budget?

Neither miserly nor extravagant - more like "as appropriate to achieve objective". Objective: good soundstage / imaging / realism, not BHOOM chhak BHOOM chhak chilla chilla chilla (heheheh - trying to imitate Sam!)

Originally Posted by hydrashok

But since you're in Bangalore, you shouldn't have a problem getting them made. Anwar of AutoFusion, Koramangala does great work with FG.

Thanks - must meet him Saturday, gotta figure out where Autofusion is

Questions:
1. Anyone have any experience with Image Dynamics CD1 or CD2 horns? To my engineering brain they sound logical for good soundstage, and do not require any mods inside.
Gunbir-pra-ji: where and how much in Bangalore?

2. Navin-ji: In a post a while back you had suggested a box the width of the Safari (inside) for the subwoofer. Any specific reasons? I couldn't think beyond reduction of intrusion into the cabin for a specifc volume

3. "2x8in has same driving area as 12in; 2 subs are better than 1": what and how?

As always, T-I-A

[low_bass_makker]

the horns are in the price range of about 40-50k a pair....

[navin]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Dimensions (WxDxH): 12"x14"x5". The 2 strips limit the available height to 4.5-5". Without the strips it is 7"...What can we do in this situation?

...trying to imitate Sam!...

Anyone have any experience with Image Dynamics CD1 or CD2 horns?

Navin-ji: In a post a while back you had suggested a box the width of the Safari (inside) for the subwoofer.

3. "2x8in has same driving area as 12in

if you can get 12"x14"x6" you might just about squeeze a 6-8" sub under the seat. Ok 6-8" is not exactly a sub but it can give you a hump in the midbass response giving the impression of some bass.

You trying to imitate Sam? Seems to be a trend nowadays.

I have heard ID horns they are loud, very loud, SPL competition class loud, but it did not suite my taste.

a subwoofer box need to have a particular internal volume. How this volume is achieved is LARGELY unimportant (as long as there is some breathing room behind the woofer's magnet). A box say 3 feet wide and 16" high need only be 9-12" deep to achieve a target volme of 1.5-1.75 cu. ft. You will find a lot a good subs that perfrom well in this volume. A box as slim as 9" can fit behind your rear car seat and shortent the length of the rear space by only 9".

2x8" does have the same Sd as a 12" but you will find that most 12" have larger Xmax than a 8" and hence Volume Displacement is more allowing a 12" to player a bit louder than 2 8". Also most 12" have lower Fs than similar 8". These are general rules. I have a 18cm woofer with a Fs of 23Hz and a linear one way Xmax of 6-7mm. However having multiple 8" woofers has it's own advatanges.

[jkdas]

check steeroids ice setup. He uses a Blau sub(powered) . 2 8inchers, one's a passive. you can remove one of teh side seats and fix it ther.

[Autophile]

Under the seats you can go for the subs which can operate in the sealed enclosure of around 0.25 - 0.35cuft. The mounting depth of the sub should not be more than 3".

Image Dynamics horns are class apart drivers. The sound stage and scale which you can achieve by horns cannot be achieved by any other driver configuration.

The horns can only be mounted under the dash, different models comes in two bodies Mini and Full. The full body offers more extension and smoother response, but where you have space constraint the you have to use Mini body.

To get best out of horns one has to use them active as there is no passive sets as horns needs lot of tuning and EQ. Once properly set up they can reproducing amazing SQ with mind blowing scale.

The horns are in the range of Rs 20,000 to Rs 65,000.

Navin which ID horns have you heard there are lot of models from piezo based drivers to mylar diaphragm based competition grade horns. Also the setup in which you have heard horns might not be tuned properly and its quite possible that horns are running on too much power. There are lot of things one have to take care of while installing horns some of them are :

Installation of horns : Time consuming effort its not as simple as installing conventional tweeters. As one needs to couple horns properly with dash with the horns absolutely parallel to the floor and with decent separation etc etc.

Power : Horns can go really loud on small increase in power as they are high sensitivity drivers (101-106dB). you don't need tons of power on them just 15-20W, good quality power will do the job. The power balance should be good in all the drivers horns, midbass, subwoofers.

Tuning and EQ : According to car and the shape of dash one needs to tune the horns with good quality eq to get flat response.

Liking or disliking the sound of driver is a very personal. One may like the sound of horns and the other may like conventional drivers. But one thing is sure that people who once switches to horns cannot revert back to conventional driver.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Installation of horns : Time consuming effort its not as simple as installing conventional tweeters. As one needs to couple horns properly with dash with the horns absolutely parallel to the floor and with decent separation etc etc.

JB, why do horns have to be absolutely parallel to the floor? I have done all installs of Illusion CH1 horns with the horns having a gentle upward tilt so that they are firing as close as possible to listening height, I hope I'm not doing something wrong here. I thought this was needed because the vertical dispersion of such horns is not as wide as the horizontal dispersion. The only thing I made sure was that the horns were at an equal height on both channels rather than one being lower on the driver side, which is sometimes unavoidable in some cars.

I totally agree that horns have to be used in an active setup. And managing the overall balance is quite a task. Horn installations cannot be left to installers not familiar with its working. All my horn installs have used multiple midbass/ midrange drivers in the front (in one case 3 per side - 2x6.5" midbasses + 1x6.5" midrange) to keep up with the outrageous sensitivity of the horns, but the regular drivers still lag behind if the gains from the crossover and the amp are not maintained as low as needed. I have always used <10W of power with the horns. Anything greater than that would be deafening.

Originally Posted by Autophile

Liking or disliking the sound of driver is a very personal. One may like the sound of horns and the other may like conventional drivers. But one thing is sure that people who once switches to horns cannot revert back to conventional driver.

Very true. But I'm sure a lot of people are misled into disliking horns from their experiences with poor quality horns, found in cheaper home and PA speakers. The midrange can go for a toss and sound very honky and unnatural. But that certainly is not the case with the horns being discussed here.

[Bass&Trouble]

Navin: Do you know Milind Rao Rane by any chance? He has assembled, and is marketing a compact passive car subwoofer nowadays. It comprises of a 6" subwoofer driver (4-layer, natural roll-off) in a shallow ported box. I think it could be used in this setup. It will fit in the available space, in my opinion, although I dont remember the exact dimensions.

[navin]

B&T I know Milind. I assume that is a 4 layer voice coil, doped paper driver. I have not heard Milind woofer but it was one reason I recommended a 6-8" woofer in my post #9. Prashant Damle also had a simliar woofer (he called it a subwoofer) in a band pass box.

JB, I heard one setup at a competition in the US. Damn it was loud and it was clean but I did not like the sound - maybe it is because i like this a bt laid back. It was not a bad install nor were the components used of poor quality it is just that i did not care for the sound. Maybe if the same system was palying more resonable levels I would have enjoyed it but try askig a guy at a SPL competition to turn it down.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

This is under the Driver's seat - oops, an ECU is taking away most of the space:

The ECu doesnt really take all that much space - I put one amp and 4 rather large crossovers under that driver's seat....