ICE- (Old) NHC - Help and Suggestions needed

[d.kiran]

Can anyone please tell me the advantage of going in for a 6x9 (oval ) speaker rather than the normal circular ones? Does the larger surface area means more air pushed therefore more bass?

[mithun]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

Can anyone please tell me the advantage of going in for a 6x9 (oval ) speaker rather than the normal circular ones? Does the larger surface area means more air pushed therefore more bass?

Better Bass when compared to the circular ones !!!

[d.kiran]

Well.. I am digging up my old thread again. I still have not managed to get my car ICEd. My company is still under the old fashioned notion that employees are supposed to work.

Anyway, while I was twiddling my thumbs, a friend of mine got his City ICEd, so I tagged along with him (without any selfish interest, might I add). I made him buy exactly the same equipment that was suggested here (again with his best interests at heart). He got a GTO 937 (mounted on a custom made MDF plank (the installer said you need to remove the factory one and we ended up losing the rear light as well)), a GTO 607, a 1204B sealed and a 75.4 amp (How often does one get a guinea pig for an ICE install ?).

Needless to say he is extremely happy with it.

But somehow that sound does not suit me. Couple of points.

1. The speakers sound too discothesque-ish to me. For some songs it suited them to a T, but for some intrumental tracks (the one I tested was the Elements CD, that was all I had), it was lacking in detail and I am not sure how to explain this, but it sounded too "digital" (I told you I am not sure how to explain that).

2. While we were there, we heard Polk Momo's (sounded even more harsh) and Infinity Reference (which I really liked, heard Kappa's are even better with similar sound)

3. I find that I am extremely happy with the bass from GTO 937. I am not sure if a subwoofer is required. But, while sitting in the driver seat, I somehow felt that all the bass was coming from the back. Now I know that bass is difficult to localize (but I guess that is in the lowest frequencies). I want to know if this is a normal problem because after all the equipment is physically located in the back. Or it is actually possible to get a proper front sound stage and my friend's setup needs to be tuned?

If not, are there any component speakers with good bass (or to be specific mid-bass around 60hz).

I have currently narrowed down my selections to

1. Infinity Kappa 60.7cs (I have not heard these, but I liked the Infinity Reference components and the general consensus seems to be that these are better).
2. Infinity Reference 9623i.
3. JBL CS 60.4 for powering the above.
4. AD Damping sheets -3 (Assuming that I dont need a sub woofer and therefore dont need to damp the trunk).

I am willing to sacrifice bass for a good soundstage. Can the gurus here help me out (again!!) ??

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

... He got a GTO 937 (mounted on a custom made MDF plank (the installer said you need to remove the factory one and we ended up losing the rear light as well)), a GTO 607, a 1204B sealed and a 75.4 amp (How often does one get a guinea pig for an ICE install ?).

...

...

3. I find that I am extremely happy with the bass from GTO 937. I am not sure if a subwoofer is required. But, while sitting in the driver seat, I somehow felt that all the bass was coming from the back. Now I know that bass is difficult to localize (but I guess that is in the lowest frequencies). I want to know if this is a normal problem because after all the equipment is physically located in the back. Or it is actually possible to get a proper front sound stage and my friend's setup needs to be tuned?

In your friend's setup, the bass could be being pulled to the back because:

A) the 75.4 is powering the 6x9s in the back and the Sub, and the fronts are running off the HU. If this is the case, the setup should be changed so the 75.4 is powering the 6.5" comps in front, and the sub in the back, with the 6x9s being run off the HU. OR

B) A tune-up is required. Sam had given a very good explanation on how to do that in the "...Advice from Gurus" thread. (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/485192-post6419.html). Since the speakers in front are 6.5" GTOs in this case, I'd try the HPF at 70 to 90Hz in front.

Originally Posted by d.kiran

...narrowed down my selections to

1. Infinity Kappa 60.7cs (I have not heard these, but I liked the Infinity Reference components and the general consensus seems to be that these are better).
2. Infinity Reference 9623i.
3. JBL CS 60.4 for powering the above.
4. AD Damping sheets -3 (Assuming that I dont need a sub woofer and therefore dont need to damp the trunk).

I am willing to sacrifice bass for a good soundstage. Can the gurus here help me out (again!!) ??

The selections you've mentioned look good. The only 2 items I'd think of changing are:

- The rear speakers. I'd go with Kappas (same series as the front) if you can increase the budget.
- The amp. A 75.4 would do wayyy better than a 60.4 with the fronts. You really wouldn't be getting the sound you have paid for from the fronts if you use a 60.4 (IMHO). Another alternative would be the JBL 4060 limited edition amp (10K I think). The 75.4 would be 13K as against the 9K for the 60.4. So do this only if budget permits.

BTW, between stretching the budget for the rears and the amp, I'd stretch it for the amp and not the rears. (In case you want a sub later, the 75.4 will do really good duty, but the 60.4 will not be as good).

[JayD]

IMHO, the gto 937 is a little bass heavy. ie, in my fiesta.simple install, just a hu and 4 spkrs, the bass seems to be all coming from the back. Even tho i have jbl co-axials in the front,thy seem to be overshadowed!

[navin]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

1. Infinity Kappa 60.7cs
2. Infinity Reference 9623i.
3. JBL CS 60.4 for powering the above.
4. AD Damping sheets -3 (Assuming that I dont need a sub woofer and therefore dont need to damp the trunk).

1. Give the quality of your speakers maybe the JBL 4060, Infinty 475 or Audison SX4 amp can be used instead.
2. to really move the bass to the front one needs a HU with Time Alignment. To me this make a big difference (along with tuning the bass of the sub and the front speakers so that they complement each other).
3. Lastly a pair of 6x9 will not move as much air as a 10" or 12" sub or even 2 x 8" subs in a box. They (the 6x9s) are useful to have when space is at a premiuim and a sub install is not possible. While a 6x9 does have the same surfance area as a 8" most 8" subwoofer drivers are designed to produce bass and just that and hence do a better job of the bass than most 6x9s.

[d.kiran]

I spoke with Preetham of Sound factor ( I am going to B'lore tomorrow) and he said that he does not stock Infinity Kappas anymore. He claims that the sound is same and he does not plan to get any more. Has anyone heard both the reference and the Kappas? Are the Kappas such a serious improvement? I have tried getting in touch with people here, but again only Infinity Reference is available. I have heard the reference and I am happy with the kind of sound it provides. The other forums I checked are not very conclusive. Some people say Kappas are definitely better, whereas some say that References provide a better sounding experience. As for me, I am using the adage that if there are two products from the same company, then the costlier one is better. And Preetham told me that he can fit a 6x9 with a spacer. All the installers I spoke to in chennai insisted on either cutting the metal or installing an MDF plank. And the forum is full of praises for sound factor. He has stock of 75.4 and Infinity 475. They seem to have the same specs but the Infinity is 2K more. Any advantages in going for the Infinity (apart from having the same brand for all the components?)

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

Has anyone heard both the reference and the Kappas? Are the Kappas such a serious improvement?

Yes, the Kappas are far better and well worth the difference you pay. Since you have Kappas up front, consider a good amp and also consider Kappa rears.

[navin]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

I have heard the reference and I am happy with the kind of sound it provides. The other forums I checked are not very conclusive. Some people say Kappas are definitely better, whereas some say that References provide a better sounding experience.

The infinity amp is a later design. Whether that is better can be told only after listening to both. I would pay the 2K diff only for the looks (I did not like the case of the JBL amps - too aggressive styling but that is what their customers want).

I would suggest you hear both Kappa and Ref. The Kappa as Gunbir says are better but also demand a better amplifier, wires, and install.

[d.kiran]

Update: I am not too familiar with Bangalore, but I have been checking out some places in Bangalore and unfortunately no one seems to have Infinity Kappas. I think the authorised shops are Car Trendz and Sound Factor. Both of them dont have stock.

Both of them tell me that they are no longer available. Now that I am surprised about.

@Yeti Bhaiyya - Are the Infinity Kappas no longer sold in India? I spoke to Kumar Auto Parts in Chennai and he asked me to call back on Monday to find out if he can source them from somewhere but he said the same thing. They are no longer available.

@Navin: You are right. The 475 is a very elegant thing to look at. Very understated and stylish.

On a totally unrelated note, whatever installs that I saw today were surprising. I guess the trend these days is to go for Dhin Chak sound. But dont people get headaches with that kind of highs continuously ?

Or at 25, I am aging prematurely.

[d.kiran]

@Hydra: Somehow seemed to have missed your post :-(. The Rears are powered by the HU, the front and the sub is connected to the amp.

Switching off the rears completely helps to an extent. In this case, even though you can still detect the direction of the bass, it is not as bad as it was before.

Does that offer any information as to what the problem could be? BTW the car has not been damped. My idiot of a friend does not believe in buying "Rubber stickers (sic)".

@Gunbir: Thanks. I am generally used to listening before buying, but for Kappas, it looks like I will have to buy before giving them a listen :-(.

Again, while I was researching the relative merits of Kappas vs Refernces. I could see a lot of references to CDT speakers. I must confess I have not heard of them. Everyone unanimously agrees that those are better to the Kappas. Has anyone heard those and can give impressions?

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

...The Rears are powered by the HU, the front and the sub is connected to the amp.

Switching off the rears completely helps to an extent. In this case, even though you can still detect the direction of the bass, it is not as bad as it was before.

Does that offer any information as to what the problem could be? BTW the car has not been damped. My idiot of a friend does not believe in buying "Rubber stickers (sic)".

I guess a bit of tuning would be the answer then.

Since the front doors are not damped, the installer must have kept the gains on the front channels a bit low (vis-a-vis the gains on the rear channels running the sub). This would be to prevent vibrations in the door. So when the volume gets turned up, the sub's volume increases at a higher rate than the front speaker's volume. And this causes the bass to get pulled backward with each notch by which the volume gets turned up.

I guess the fronts will need to be HPF'd at about 90Hz-100Hz or higher to get reasonable volume in front, and at the same time avoid vibrations in the doors. But you won't get a lot of bass up-front this way.

Else, I think the only solution is to damp the front doors and HPF the fronts at 70Hz to 80Hz (and enjoy better bass). If the HU had Time Alignment, playing around with the TA settings would have helped to pull the bass forward.

BTW, I think the link to Sam's post (on tuning) I mentioned earlier does not work. Try this (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...new-q-428.html (Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!))

[d.kiran]

I did see that thread (You had added an additional ")"). I found another nice guide (How to Get the Best Stereo Imaging & Soundstage) that explained why Sam has given those settings.

I'll have to check his car and see if I can tweak it a bit. Will update the thread with the details.

I am more worried about myself now. I need to figure out how to get the Kappas to Chennai / Bangalore .

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

And Preetham told me that he can fit a 6x9 with a spacer. All the installers I spoke to in chennai insisted on either cutting the metal or installing an MDF plank. And the forum is full of praises for sound factor.

Kiran, yes, I had my N-NHC ICE-ed from Sound Factor. Preetham's team installed 9623i with a spacer - NO metal cutting is required and NO MDF plank is required. The beige color of the spacer is not an exact match with the interior, but it is not obvious unless you are very picky.

BTW, I have installed Infinity Reference compos at the front too and I am happy with the setup. (I haven't installed an AMP or a SUB as I don't set the volume levels to even half of what the HU is capable.)

[d.kiran]

That's great pmbabu. I am assuming that you are using the stock grills and they fit perfectly for both the fronts and rears?

Also, where did you fit the tweeter for the fronts?