Should I spend for serious ICE ?

[d.kiran]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

In the single blind test, navin keeps one eye covered

Brilliant!!!

@Navin: You can hear the difference between 320kbps AAC and lossless/CD on PC speakers? Can I borrow your ears??? No wonder you are sooo interested in audio. Out of curiosity, how old are you? I am assuming that the person in the pic is your kid. If so, I would put your age at early 30's (assuming the pic of your kid is current). And I heard (pun unintended) that the frequency that people can hear reduces from the late 20s.

Back to the topic, while discussing the quality of MP3s, the source also should be taken in to consideration. If you take the old hindi Songs say between 1940s - 1960s, the recordings are not good. The spectrum ranges from 3-15 khz with a very strong emphasis on vocals, an area where MP3s are traditionally strong. So I personally dont see any major difference between 160 kbps and CD quality. And I rip the old songs at that bit rate.

For most new Indian recordings, I use 320kbps and again i am very happy with it and it requires a bit of concentration to find the difference.

For most foreign recordings concertos, rock,jazz I leave it at lossless. The difference between lossless and lossy is immediately apparent in these recordings.

But all my files are in AAC or lossless and the compatibility is not very good. I am having a major problem setting up my HTPC because of Apple Lossless.
Offtopic, but has anyone tried converting cassette tapes to high bitrate AAC. They sound far better than ripped CDs. I spent a lot of time trying to convert cassettes and then using sound forge to remove the tape hiss. The end result was totally worth it. I did this for a month and could do only 40 cassettes. Then I got a job :-(.

I do type a lot dont I ?

[navin]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

In the single blind test, navin keeps one eye covered

"A double blind test is when neither the individuals nor the researchers know who belongs to the control group and the experimental group" wikipedia definition.

what I call a single blind test is that I knew I had a .mp3 and .wv file of each of the songs but did not know which one was playing. Actually I ran into this difference by accident (I have a lot of accidents).

I was actually looking for the MP3 version of the song and accidently started the .wv version and my ears perked up "that sounded better than it did yesterday". then I saw the filename and was surprised that even my simple PC speakers (NXT panels) could resolve the differences.

The test I did was no way as stringent as a ABX test but since it was an accident I figured there must be some truth to the matter. I report what I hear. At my age (40+) and inclination (DIY) I have no need to prove anything nor favour any manufacturer.

[navin]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

And I heard (pun unintended) that the frequency that people can hear reduces from the late 20s.

For most foreign recordings concertos, rock,jazz I leave it at lossless. The difference between lossless and lossy is immediately apparent in these recordings.

I spent a lot of time trying to convert cassettes and then using sound forge to remove the tape hiss. The end result was totally worth it. I did this for a month and could do only 40 cassettes. Then I got a job :-(.

Hearing does dimish as one gets older but then by then one learn to listen better too.

My CDs are from Telarc, Chesky, MFSL, and other lables. I have bought very few (if any) CDs in India. One friend borrowed a Santana disc from me once (Supernatural) and claimed that my disc (bought in Germany) sounded better than his (bought in India). Have you guys heard such reports?

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by navin

One friend borrowed a Santana disc from me once (Supernatural) and claimed that my disc (bought in Germany) sounded better than his (bought in India). Have you guys heard such reports?

Very true. Especially upto about 5 years ago. In fact Dire Straits was one of the earliest promotors of the HDCD concept.
I was well aware of the issue, simply because when you inserted some Dire Straits recording in harman/kardon CD players, the HDCD logo would light up. One of those CDs was Brothers in Arms, purchased by me in europe.
Now the cover had the HDCD logo on it, as is mandatory.

The same CD, released and pressed here by Music India, also featured the same artwork and cover. Including the HDCD logo. But the recording was poor and not HDCD (The harman/kardon HDCD logo would simply not light up)
I also remember one such customer bought the same CD after demoing it at our store and came back threatening to sue. When he discovered it wasn't our fault it didn't sound the same, he went ahead and sued Music India. I do not know the outcome of that suit.

[d.kiran]

Originally Posted by navin

My CDs are from Telarc, Chesky, MFSL, and other lables. I have bought very few (if any) CDs in India. One friend borrowed a Santana disc from me once (Supernatural) and claimed that my disc (bought in Germany) sounded better than his (bought in India). Have you guys heard such reports?

Yup. I have heard the same too. We have two versions of the Dark Side of the Moon. One, we got in India and the other my bro bought in Denmark and the differences are noticeable. Does anyone know what causes it? I mean it should be the same source material and it should be transferred as is.

[navin]

Originally Posted by d.kiran

Does anyone know what causes it? I mean it should be the same source material and it should be transferred as is.

I suspect it could be the pressing. It should not be the master as it is prbably the same.

[Sam Kapasi]

But the digital pressing of gaps in foil that relat in terms of laser wavelength to bits and bytes, digital data that is eventually converted to analog using DACs, cannot and should not change the audio quality.

If the master is the same, then the quality of the raw material should affect the readability and/or durability of the pressed audio CD, not the sound quality.

A disc is digital data. My cheap 7 rupee recordable CDs, recorded from a german original CD, at 12X, sound much better than the CDs released in India, 5 years ago. (There are people that claim to be able to hear the difference between direct digital copies of original audio Cds and the originals. I am not one of them.)
Assuming there is a difference. OK. So I burnt a CD at home from YOUR original dark side of the moon. It will sound better than the dark side of the moon that was pressed here.

[santosh.s]

It may sound stupid, but just a thought- may be the bad CD was pirated one in which enough care was not taken to preserve the content (substandard analog link)... or else the company intentionally provided little inferior copies in certain regions in anticipation of mass piracy?

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

It may sound stupid, but just a thought- may be the bad CD was pirated one in which enough care was not taken to preserve the content (substandard analog link)... or else the company intentionally provided little inferior copies in certain regions in anticipation of mass piracy?

Nope. Same scenario, 10 years ago, when CDs used to cost more. Original CD bought from Groove for Rs. 550/-

If the company provided inferior copis and sold them in a poor country for 500 bucks (10 years ago, 500 bucks was a LOT) then it's a stupid company.

[navin]

no santosh we are talking about actual CD bought at Planet M and Rhythm House and places like that.

Will CDDB be able to tell the difference between the 2. If so this might give us a clue.

Unfortunately I dont have 2 CDs of any album. So if one of you do try CDDB and let us know.

Sam if what you are saying is true it means that the record companies are using lesser masters for India.

As far as comparing home made recordings is concerned, some years back I got me a DR 6000 (still have it) from Marantz. I made a few copies of my CDs using this. I could not tell the difference between the copy and the original but I have friends who claim they could. Maybe I was not listening closely enough.

[low_bass_makker]

the media available in india is not good...there is always some problem in it and it is not sounding good....I have few imported CDs and they play good...the company who press cds in india does not care for quality of sound they produce they all care is of money...the hindi movie OST is also the same very poor quality

About the recording the CD the orignal will be same as the Rs 7 wala...but then the lens pickup will also effect the reproduction of the sound as the master (if it is the orignal one) will sound better than the recorded one as it will be a bit difficult to be read by the drive....

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by navin

One friend borrowed a Santana disc from me once (Supernatural) and claimed that my disc (bought in Germany) sounded better than his (bought in India). Have you guys heard such reports?

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Very true. Especially upto about 5 years ago. In fact Dire Straits was one of the earliest promotors of the HDCD concept.
I was well aware of the issue, simply because when you inserted some Dire Straits recording in harman/kardon CD players, the HDCD logo would light up. One of those CDs was Brothers in Arms, purchased by me in europe.
Now the cover had the HDCD logo on it, as is mandatory.

Very true. All my audio CDs were bought in the US by my mother & brother, sister, friends etc. I lost one of my Dire Straits album, called money for nothing, it is a collection of their greatest hits & i bought a local copy from Planet M for around 600 bucks & i regretted the day i bought it. it sounded so flat. It has all the holograms of the original, anyway i took it back to the store the very next day along with a tape of the same album recorded from the previous source which sounded far better than this CD. So they played all the 7 CDs they had in stock with them at that time & compared it to the tape i took & offered to pay back my money. I simply refused & asked them to give me a copy that is good or accept that they are selling sub standard stuff for exorbitant amount of money. It became a major controversy in Planet M & i took the money eventually.

[vikram18]

Originally Posted by navin

One friend borrowed a Santana disc from me once (Supernatural) and claimed that my disc (bought in Germany) sounded better than his (bought in India). Have you guys heard such reports?

It has been my experience that CDs recorded abroad sound almost always better than the ones in India; at least all the ones I own do.

[navin]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

Very true. All my audio CDs were bought in the US by my mother & brother, sister, friends etc..

Thanks guys. I learnt never to buy local CDs. Imported only.

Will CD Universe etc.. ship to India?
A lot of my CDs were got from a place called Noteworthy music. I called them so often that I still remember the number (1-800-648-7972). Dont know if they still exsit (I did my buying 15+ years ago). This is was before the internet.

Other places were CD Connection and CD Europe.

[santosh.s]

I am curious. I think ignorance in making cds would either make or break them, how can it lead to just deterioration of quality? So it has something to do with altering the content itself. What kind of differences did you guys notice in sound?