Audio CD vs 320kbps mp3.. etc.,

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by zucchero

gunbir paaji you are absolutely on the spot.its easy to differenciate between a mp3 and an orignal cd.lbm if you remember i once played INXS 'need you tonight' in your car through the orignal cd and the very next moment you played the same track through your IPO.the difference was like 'day and night'.
thers no way mp3 can be compared to the orignals cd.

Sir I am coming at your place we will do a practical test and then we will post the comments here later in the evening.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by zucchero

the difference was like 'day and night'.
thers no way mp3 can be compared to the orignals cd.

Thank You. Thats what I've been trying to say.

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by gunbir

Ya Right... Haha haha hah haha... Seriously though, I can tell the difference. So can many others.

there are two ways you can wake up a sleeping audiophile.

1. Pump up the volume.

2. Play his/her beloved song with the most untypical settings.


@ Gunbir, Sam and others.

You being the experienced audiophiles. How would you rank Alpine, Clarion, Pioneer and Blaupunkt?

I ask because.

1 Blaupunkt is one of the oldest audio makers and has a rich history. And top of all its German.
2. Anybody who's anybody shouts Alpine as best.
3. Pioneer is everywhere since Indians started driving.
4. Clarions new HMI thingy impressed me a lot and so did their HU specs.

[techn9ne]

Originally Posted by gunbir

I am not arguing the need for MP3. I am just saying you CAN easily tell the difference. And NO there is no need of MP3 on High End HUs in my opinion.

I really avoid posing on sites, but! some quotes by some pretty old and regular users really p****d me off firstly tell me, the people who put expensive head units in their cars, who do they consider themselves to be??? A music lover or a guy who likes to show off an expensive system in their cars? I agree mp3 quality is in no comparison to original cd quality but I don’t know how many can tell a difference without headphones....


Anyways that’s besides the point Mr. gunbir said "will there be no quiet moment in your car" I would like to ask "will you never feel the urge to listen to a mp3 cd ever!" but no oh! **** u have a very expensive head unit which cant play mp3, what you do is wait for a year for that cd to be officially launched in India, or you can get it imported from outside India but if you are a true music lover I bet you cant wait even for a day when you can see your favorite music freely available on the net, now we can again get into morality/legality issues over free downloading from the net but that’s not a part of this thread is it?


Picture this you I go to a friends house I like rap he gives me a snoop dogs mp3 CD specially burnt for me coz he knows I will love it! What do I do? lmao I will straight away rush to expert in KB and take that big *** junk (for that particular cd it is junk or vice-versa) out of my car and ask him to install a 3700 rs pioneer mp3 in my Ferrari.... where does that take that brand who if wanted could have had a mp3 playing option in the hu if it doesn’t affect the original cd playing quality isn’t that a advantage to the consumer? So the company doesn’t want the consumer to have more features why is that?

Please note all these brands high end or low end all are here because of music and not vice-versa
Please feel free if you feel the urge to comment

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by zucchero

gunbir paaji you are absolutely on the spot.its easy to differenciate between a mp3 and an orignal cd.lbm if you remember i once played INXS 'need you tonight' in your car through the orignal cd and the very next moment you played the same track through your IPO.the difference was like 'day and night'.
thers no way mp3 can be compared to the orignals cd.

Your explanation of the situation in relation to one particular song really brings a lot of questions to my mind which i cannot ask you here, so let us move on.

Please also note that music is really for the music lover & not for an audiophile. An audiophile can also be a music lover, but not necessarily the reverse. I know i am stepping into some serious territory here, but this place really needs this. I dont think a man can call himself an audiophile by just taking the advice of one. He really doesn't have to be one. He is a music lover & it is his choice what system he wants to listen to. I really appreciate people who stick to their guns about this. Be yourselves folks. I know i can be better, but right now i am happy for what i am.

Originally Posted by techn9ne

Please note all these brands high end or low end all are here because of music and not vice-versa
Please feel free if you feel the urge to comment

Very true, techn9ne.

[Sam Kapasi]

Hello tech9ne and welcome to the fun part of this forum.

Originally Posted by techn9ne

Please feel free if you feel the urge to comment

I do. I will.

You have a very, very strong post, for your very first one on this forum. My first advice to you. Read before you write. There is a lot of information here, past and present. I hope you came here to learn, just like all of us did. There is no hurry to comment.

WRT Gunbir's post. He simply said that he is not arguing the need for MP3, but does not feel the need for MP3 in high end HU's. Your entire, emotionally charged post was uncalled for then, advocating the need for MP3. It is clearly understood to each and every one of us that MP3 is needed, long before your outburst. So what's your point?

Let me explain Gunbir's point in another context.

I have 2 cameras. One Nikon S1, it is a point-and-shoot camera, costing Rs.12000/-. This camera has some amazing features apart from shooting pictures, like video recording in multiple formats, voice over recording on pictures, text memos and what not.
My other camera is a Nikon D70, digital SLR, costing exactly 5 times as much. The camera does not do anything but take pictures. Can you imagine, I cannot even see what I am shooting through the screen, I have to peer through the eyepiece!!! It's just designed for high quality picture taking.

Now tell me, which one is a better camera?

The head units in the context here (if you have cared to read the whole thread) are specialist units, designed for a very different purpose. Not for listening to MP3. Quite like my Nikon D70, which is only designed to take pictures. If I want something that will also take videos, dance for me, cook me a meal, make out with me and put me to sleep later, I will buy some other model. Not the D70.

Secondly, it's really no great achievement to be a music lover, especially on this side of Team-BHP, there are many here that live, eat and breathe music, for some it is a profession of choice. I wouldn't go around banging on a drum with that fact. We're all VERY serious music lovers. We discuss ICE equipment here.

There are other forums that discuss only music, we are not one of them. Each one of us is WELL aware what the objective of this equipment is.

Thirdly, if getting from point A to B is the objective, it can be done in a Maruti800. You don't need a Ferrari(To quote your choice of vehicle) to do it. While both achieve the same objective, the Ferrari does it with panache, flair and pleasure. That's the difference between good equipment and bad.

Lastly, the company in question, is Clarion. And they have one or possibly two HU's that are specialized and don't play MP3. They have probably 25 that do. So please do study and understand before you get mad.

And please don't insinuate words by using those **** symbols. That isn't allowed here. Please do read the rules. Be nice, play nice and everyone will be your friend. Don't get so strong and personal, everyone is entitled to an opinion, just as you are entitled to yours.

Cheers

Sam.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by techn9ne

I really avoid posing on sites, but! some quotes by some pretty old and regular users really p****d me off firstly tell me, the people who put expensive head units in their cars, who do they consider themselves to be??? A music lover or a guy who likes to show off an expensive system in their cars?

Dear techn9ne. Welcome to TBHP. You will feel right at home here.
That said, that was an intense first post. I really don't know why you're pissed off. If you knew me at all... even a teeny weeny bit, you wouldn't be saying what you did. So get to know me better before you start to get pissed. Drop by, beer's on me... who knows, you may learn something

Originally Posted by techn9ne

I agree mp3 quality is in no comparison to original cd quality but I don’t know how many can tell a difference without headphones....

It seems funny that everyone says "I agree mp3 is in no comparison to CD... blah blah blah..." but they refuse to accept that most others can tell the difference as well. If you agree, it means you can tell the difference.

Originally Posted by techn9ne

Anyways that’s besides the point Mr. gunbir said "will there be no quiet moment in your car" I would like to ask "will you never feel the urge to listen to a mp3 cd ever!" but no oh! **** u have a very expensive head unit which cant play mp3, what you do is wait for a year for that cd to be officially launched in India, or you can get it imported from outside India but if you are a true music lover I bet you cant wait even for a day when you can see your favorite music freely available on the net, now we can again get into morality/legality issues over free downloading from the net but that’s not a part of this thread is it?

Umm... I buy all my music (and I have a lot) here mostly. And the rest, the music "I cant wait even for a day" for, I buy from the Internet. YES. Maybe the concept of buying music hasn't sunk in yet but I've been doing it for years. I can buy uncompressed music the day its launched abroad, and I'm listening to it in my car within minutes. If its really good music, I still prefer to buy the original CD once its released here.

But again, I dont agree that a true music lover has to download crappy free rips off the internet. In fact I think if you are a true music lover, you tend to respect the music and would want it in all its uncompressed glory. But thats just me.

Originally Posted by techn9ne

Picture this you I go to a friends house I like rap he gives me a snoop dogs mp3 CD specially burnt for me coz he knows I will love it! What do I do? lmao I will straight away rush to expert in KB and take that big *** junk (for that particular cd it is junk or vice-versa) out of my car and ask him to install a 3700 rs pioneer mp3 in my Ferrari.... where does that take that brand who if wanted could have had a mp3 playing option in the hu if it doesn’t affect the original cd playing quality isn’t that a advantage to the consumer? So the company doesn’t want the consumer to have more features why is that?

My young friend, dont you think the company can put in a feature that they have in the 100$ product, in their 1400$ product too. Of course they can. Why don't they? for the same reasons you wont find a calculator function on a $5000 timepiece (wristwatch).

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

Please also note that music is really for the music lover & not for an audiophile. An audiophile can also be a music lover, but not necessarily the reverse. I know i am stepping into some serious territory here, but this place really needs this. I dont think a man can call himself an audiophile by just taking the advice of one. He really doesn't have to be one. He is a music lover & it is his choice what system he wants to listen to.

Agreed. I have always maintained that the minute you start listening to your system, rather than to your music, you have lost the whole gist of this hobby...

I for one love listening to my music and now that I'm spoilt, I find it difficult to go back to MP3 etc. I had recently installed an Alpine W200 in my own car, replacing my HX-D2... purely out of convenience as the W200 can play WMAs off DVD-R. But 2 months later, I'm back to the HX-D2. I also have an 80gb iPod lying around, loaded with my music. But I find the SQ unacceptable compared to the original CD playing in my car. So the iPod lies unused.

Sure, I want the convenience of compressed audio, but though I tried, I just cant bring myself to make the sacrifices it demands.

Cheers!

Edit: Kya Sam, wish I'd known you were going to reply. I would have caught up on some sleep... yawn... gnite

[techn9ne]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Hello tech9ne and welcome to the fun part of this forum.



I do. I will.

You have a....

Sam.

i just want to know if at all a high end consumer electronic company adds a mp3 playing option in their high end head units will it affect in any way the quality of sound it will produce if a original cd is played on it? if it doesn't why keep the consumer away from a feature which allows him to access music he likes to listen in his car and say stuff like

"And NO there is no need of MP3 on High End HUs in my opinion."

sounds a little rigged from the sellers point of view! whats the fault of the consumer using the product if at all he wants to listen to a mp3!

so you say if a person wants to listen to mp3 he should not buy a head unit which doesn't support a mp3 option for that he needs another head unit along with the high end head unit in his car?

so correct me if i am wrong "and YES there is definitely a need of mp3 on high end low end and also medium end HUs in my opinion"

[v1p3r]

I opened this thread (unlike the whole ICE section) because I actually owned a couple of Clarions (on OHCs) and my equally ICE-illiterate friend nitrous started the thread. But my, my, whatte fun!

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

welcome to the fun part of this forum.

Eh? This isn't the engine/turbo/nitrous/zoom-zoom section.

Originally Posted by gunbir

Drop by, beer's on me...

I don't know why people don't put MP3 WMA and makeout chicks in players. Now where's that beer?!

[zucchero]

@esteem lover.this was not the ONLY track which we felt was running low than the orignal once.
secondly,i agree that a music lover doesnt need to be a audiophile but an AUDIOPHILE HAS TO be a music lover.its just like i am a good chef but i dont like good food.
techn9ne welcome to t-bhp my friend.i have never come across a 'true music lover' listening to those mp3 leave aside those audiophiles who have dedicated 'power supplies' for their equipments.
no ponit ASKING wether the high end units should play those crappy mp3 or not.JUST LISTEN to both the formats on a good set up and you WILL come to know brother.

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by gunbir

I had recently installed an Alpine W200 in my own car, replacing my HX-D2... purely out of convenience as the W200 can play WMAs off DVD-R. But 2 months later, I'm back to the HX-D2.

Does this mean that HX-D2 isn't going cheap any more?

Originally Posted by techn9ne

i just want to know if at all a high end consumer electronic company adds a mp3 playing option in their high end head units will it affect in any way the quality of sound it will produce if a original cd is played on it? if it doesn't why keep the consumer away from a feature which allows him to access music he likes to listen in his car and say stuff like

"And NO there is no need of MP3 on High End HUs in my opinion."

sounds a little rigged from the sellers point of view! whats the fault of the consumer using the product if at all he wants to listen to a mp3!

First off, welcome to TBHP-ICE I couldn't resist not replying.

Why do people buy a particular HU? They buy it because that HU gives them some specific features that they want.

Somebody who buys a HU because Puff Daddy is using it, or because it looks good, is buying a style-statement first, and a device that plays music next.

Somebody who has a budget of say 20k, buys the HU that fits all or most of his requirements (SQ-wise and features-wise) at 20K. If he wants a HU that plays MP3, he'll buy one. If he finds that a HU has iPod connectivity, but no MP3-CD facility (and he wants the iPod connectivity more than native MP3-CD facililty), he will buy that HU.

A guy who really loves listening to music has ONE feature in mind. Which HU sounds the best? He of course has a budget. But for him, the number one requirement is, "it must sound the best within my budget. Whatever other features I get for that much, I'll take. The rest be damned."

It is all about what you want, and what you can get for the money you can spend.

I love listening to music. I love using all kinds of gadgets. I love watching movies. I love going out. I love eating out. I love travelling. BUTTTT what I can spend on these pleasures is limited. I love listening to music more than playing with gadgets and watching movies, and anything else. So what do I do? About 70% of my spendable money goes into music. The rest gets divided among the rest of my wants.

A guy who spends 1500/- on a hotel room will look at me and ridicule me for staying in a 500/- hotel room. A guy who changes his mobile every 6 months will look at me and ridicule my 1 year old mobile. I may use a train/bus and get laughed at for not flying. But what the hell? I love how I get listen to music by spending all that I've saved on my ICE. When the first guy and the second guy buy a bling display Pioneer that will do x, y and z (and does what they want in their budget), I will spend 5 to 6 times that much on a HU that sounds better, and all else (features I don't mind sacrificing for better sound) be damned.

It all comes down to what you want, what you want more, and how much you can spend on what you want. Your choice, your money. You want a HU that plays MP3 also, but sounds a little less good than a HU that does not play MP3? Buy it. It has got what you want. It may not necessarily be what the other guy wants.

High-end does not just mean more money. It means "features of a kind and quality you do not get in lesser costly stuff". If it did not, nobody would be fool enough to buy "high-end".

If a seller is not selling what the consumers would like to buy, the market will take care of him. He will go out of business. Or he'll add the features that will make consumers buy his stuff.

End of rant.

(I dunno why I started when I don't have the time for this these days.But I think this long winded post needed to be made.)

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by techn9ne

i just want to know if at all a high end consumer electronic company adds a mp3 playing option in their high end head units will it affect in any way the quality of sound it will produce if a original cd is played on it?

Probably not. But then again, should Rudra's camera, a Canon EOS1DSII (costing multiple lacs of rupees) have a video recording option and should it be able to be used as a webcam when connected to his mac using USB? And will he even use it. No. To him it will be blasphemy to even suggest an option like this.
And if you don't know who he is, spend some time in the forum, you'll figure it out. And I like Gunbir's example of a $5000 watch not having a calulator/alarm.

"And NO there is no need of MP3 on High End HUs in my opinion."

sounds a little rigged from the sellers point of view! whats the fault of the consumer using the product if at all he wants to listen to a mp3!

so you say if a person wants to listen to mp3 he should not buy a head unit which doesn't support a mp3 option for that he needs another head unit along with the high end head unit in his car?

so correct me if i am wrong "and YES there is definitely a need of mp3 on high end low end and also medium end HUs in my opinion"

It's not rigid (let me clarify here, that nobody on Team-BHP is connected to Clarion) at all. Clarion, Denon and many other companies make head units, especially for a brigade of purists that would never touch compressed music.

It depepnds on what your definition of High End HU is. The same person who buys the Clarion HX-D2 or the Denon (forgot model) will probably use/want to buy a Wadia or Mark Levinson CD player at home. Guess what? Those don't play MP3 either and have trouble with cheap CD-Rs!!

If you definition of High End, is a Rs.25000/- car head unit with bells and whistles, trust me those all play MP3.

We are not discussing those units. We're discussing purist Head Units that are not even sold in the open market. You have to hunt for them or order them from abroad. Companies make these, mostly for the love of audio. And buying one of these doesn't MAKE you anything, Better or smarter or an audiophile (shudder, I hate that word), it's simply a question of choice.

If someone comes to one of our retail showrooms (home audio) and asks questions like if it plays DIVx and multi region and Pirated DVD's and MP3discs, the managers don't take the client to the High End Section.
Can you believe the fact that the Lexicon 3.25 lac DVD player cannot play Rs.100/- pirated DVDs properly. It's not designed to do that.
So tell me, in a market where you can buy a Big Brand DVD player for Rs.3000/- that plays everything but Rotis, why would anyone pay 3.25L for a DVD player that has trouble with MP3 and pirated DVDs?
Because when you put in your original DVD/ Audio CD, that's where the difference is apparent. That's what you're paying for.

I can go on. It is a proven fact that whether it be cars, electronics, watches, gadgets etc. etc. high end purist models offer few features and specialize in the core features.

Did you know that a Ferrari doesn't even have a rear door, or a proper rear seat! Imagine, even my 2 lac Maruti800 had 4 doors!

So if I have children and a family of 5 that I usually compress into my Maruti, and now I want a Ferrari (A high end car), should I buy another car to take them to Appu Ghar?? No, I think there is definitely a need for Child lockable rear doors and kiddie seats, a large boot for shopping and bottle holders for all Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris and their kind. Why should the consumer be deprived of these things?
Surely it's important to have a family? Far more important than using MP3?

See my point again?

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Eh? This isn't the engine/turbo/nitrous/zoom-zoom section.

Happy C3PO? And don't bring Quattroportes into this?

[Autophile]

Originally Posted by techn9ne

"And NO there is no need of MP3 on High End HUs in my opinion."

MP3 playback is far off to exist in high end units. There are units which do not offer even cue-ing in between tracks. Only play and track change. This is done to make transport more stable hence there is minimum error in pickup enhancing the SQ.

The SQ units will have minimalistic display, heavy duty copper chassis, multilayer PCB boards, outboard power supplies, expensive digital to analog convertors - clocks - volume pots, transport mechanisms, connectors and metal face plate.

All the SQ units will have above parts as standard as using them is the only way to enhance SQ. There is no room for MP3 decoders as people who buy these expensive units does not bother much about compressed music.

Some Examples :

McIntosh MX-406 / MX-5000
Clarion HX-D2 / DRX-9255
Denon DCT-Z1
Nakamichi CD-700MKII
Soundmonitors
Kenwood K-CD01

As Sam said the people who owns the above are the ones who own/wish to own high end CD playback units at their homes like Wadia, Mark Levinson, Krell. The manufactures who don't even think of MP3's in their wildest of dreams.

Even in days when multiformat players SACD/CD/DVD etc are flooded in the market at affordable prices, "Audiophiles" still buy expensive CD players because they offer better SQ than multiformat players. If that would not have been the case, CD players would have gone extinct long back.

[sk456]

Originally Posted by techn9ne

I really avoid posing on sites, ..

... reallly ...so you do soemtimes...... I hope you are a woman....sorry but I jsut cudnt resist it lol

[navin]

Sam/Gunbir,

Sam when you comapre a SLR to a P&S you forget one important option. You can have both cameras available at most times and are free to choose which one you want to use. In a car you only have one HU and one day you might be in the mood for a quiet drive and some audiophile music and on anothe day you might just need some background music (for which MP3 is ok).

In my view it is the transport stability that plays the most important role in reproducing sound accurately and having a Wadia that could play DVD/MP3/VCD all equally well would be nice.

Unfortunately the people who make Wadia and Mcintosh think differently so I have to live wit 2 macines at home so in my home I have a audio CD player as well as a DVD/VCD/MP3 player becuase there are times I might need to use one or the other. In my car there is not enough room for both.

Adding an MP3 decoder to a car HU does not degrade from the sound quality if the same HU was to play a regular CD does it? I for one really wished there was a car HU that had the build quality of a HXD2 but could also play Mp3. Since this is not possible one just has to settle for the best built HU that can also play MP3s. It is a compromise and it is probably this compromise that has gotten tech9ne excited.

Many of these high end HUs do not even allow for an external source of MP3 (changer/ipod).