Audio CD vs 320kbps mp3.. etc.,

[kb100]

HOO BOY!!... missed this one!!...

And I just got acused this very morning of not paying attention to T-Bhp!! That's Guilty as Charged - twice over!!!

The way I see it -

1. Most high end units do not play MP3s

2. The people buying these exotics do not seek this facility - in fact most of them look down apon it!

3. Maybe there is a certain "snob" value in maintaining the "PURE' nature of these units - of perhaps another way of show-casing its 'Exclusivity' - A marketing gimmick perhaps!

4. Yes - a lot of features can be added to anything but what is the point ? - you can NEVER please all! - and everything has a PRICE.

5. Lets all admit the manufacturers have a whole lot more to lose than you or me - Perhaps their research might have shown that the customers for these high-end equipment prefer it this way - or they have found that the products which claim this exclusivity are the ones that swing the buying decision etc!

6. 'Rainy Day" , 'Suddenly found nanny's old recording in the attic' kind of situations - in all fairness we can all think of a myriad of 'special' occassions' - and it is next to impossible to design a product to cater to these one off situations!! (suddenly one might need a 4x4 in addition to a different HU!)

7. All of us are creatures of habit - and as such buy equipment that satisfies these tastes/habits.

And lastly but not the leastly (SAM - I am an incorrigible mallu - remember!!), so long as the HU allows for some external source to be plugged in I have no complaints what so ever... everything there-on-in is in the realm of what my late Father - God Bless His Soul - used to say "IF my auty had them 'watch-um-call-its', she'd be my UNCLE!!"

KB!

[rev_hard]

ALL car audio companies are out the there to make moolah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but even before any company starts spending money on product development and r&d etc., they would get real about which segment of the market they want to target.

With this segment-identifying decision in hand, they would(and should) do some market research about the features/bells-whistles/ghoda gaadi et.al their target customers would want in their products.

I believe its only for the better of us(the customers) that this segmentation practice is adopted by all and every audio company.

The perceived brand-image of any company is highly debatable and tell me my dear friends, which company would NOT want to be a part of this hotly-debatable topic!

I admit - my pocket size at the time of any purchase determines whether i stay loyal to my preffered brand/company OR start developing interest in another.

P.S. - All the generalization bit in this thread really has me worried. Can we all please stop doing that.

EDIT: Hi KB, ING'ans do think alike

[Autophile]

Lets take an example where we consider HX-D2 which offers Mp3 playback hypothetically.

Inside the HX-D2 the following components are used.

- 4 X Burr Brown 1793, K-Grade 24Bit/192KHz DAC's
- 96KHz upsampling using AKM DSP and FIR digital filter.
- 0.5 step Burr Brown volume pot
- 4 layer circuit board and 6N copper output RCA's.
- High Precision CD transport and pickup mechanism

Clarion has spent a lot of money and R&D on the above mentioned parts / components and because of these parts this HU is expensive and offers very high level of SQ in CD playback.

Now tell me what benefit one can get by playing MP3 on HX-D2 when the so called esoteric components are used in the unit to attain highest level of CD playback as priority and they offer zero benefit when it comes to MP3 playback.

So MP3 lovers and believers, i would say its better not to waste USD 1000+ on a High End HU and get labelled as "Snobish Audiophile" rather stick to USD 100-200 entry level MP3/CD players and be "Practical".

[kb100]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Lets consider HX-D2 and it plays Mp3.

DUH JB... I thought it did not ???

[hydrashok]

One question [I forgot to ask in my earlier post ]. Honest answers please.

How many people here aren't buying a unit like the HX-D2 just because it doesn't play MP3?

My Answer: I can't afford the unit whether it plays MP3 or not. So I can't buy one anyway.

EDIT: Just saw your post, JB! Looks like we both had the same thing in mind

[Autophile]

Originally Posted by kb100

DUH JB... I thought it did not ???

Not it does not play MP3 at all. It was just a hypothetical situation I took.

[gunbir]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

One question [I forgot to ask in my earlier post ]. Honest answers please.

How many people here aren't buying a unit like the HX-D2 just because it doesn't play MP3?

Exactly what I asked earlier.

[Bass&Trouble]

Arre waah! Such a nice jhagda jhagdi thread, after such a long time. KB without DB ko bhi jagaa diya. Very good. Keep it up.

Psst Clip, we shall make 2 high end models of cd receiver, one with mp3 and other without. Dont tell anyone right now.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

if adding MP3 facility costs more (the manufacturer now has to do additional R&D to ensure that MP3 does not screw up what it was doing well in the first place) he, the prime target of such a HU, is being put to a loss.

But does it infact cost more? Can't you add the capability to play compressed formats without subtracting from the audio CD-playing qualities of the HU?

Originally Posted by hydrashok

He does not listen to MP3 simply because it does not sound good enough. So the presence of MP3 in the HU makes no difference to him. Even if the HU had MP3, and even if the presence of MP3 facility does not affect playback of SQ of CDs in any way, he wouldn't use the MP3 facility at all. So as far as he is concerned, the HU doesn't need MP3.

Read what navin has said below.

Originally Posted by navin

You wanna bet. I know alteast 2 owners of high end CD players (one Wadia one ML) that also keep a Philips "play everything but a roti" player around.

While they have never pined about having mid-fi features (such as MP3 compatibility) in home audio then next time we meet I would raise this question "Would you like it if your Wadia/ML could play MP3 as long as the CD playback did not suffer". The thought like you said has never occured to them so far.

My only suggestion is that given that in a car we are limited to only one HU why not include these admitedly mid-features. If they did affect the sound of CD playback I can see an argument. If they do not why not include these features, is it just plain myopia or is it snobishness (the audiophile community can be very snobbish).

[kb100]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

But does it infact cost more? Can't you add the capability to play compressed formats without subtracting from the audio CD-playing qualities of the HU?.

Perhaps technically its feasible... BUT the people buying them ARE NOT looking for it.

I am sure once word gets to the manufacturers that enought volume of their customers are wanting this in their HUs they will be glad to oblige!

We are all in a market driven economy!!

LOL@B&T... yeah.. no DB... so lets make some NOISEEEEEEEEEEE!!

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

But does it infact cost more? Can't you add the capability to play compressed formats without subtracting from the audio CD-playing qualities of the HU?

I think it would. Esp. after reading JB's post about the HX-D2 above.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Read what navin has said below.

I somewhat agree with what Navin has said -- esp. the 2nd paragraph you've quoted. And again, in addition to agreeing with what Navin said, and in addition to what I've said above (in response to your "would it cost more" statement):

I personally have nothing against MP3 facility in high-end HUs if adding MP3 facility:

1) Does not make them costlier.
2) Does not make CDs, and the general SQ of the HU sound less good.
3) Does not increase the likelihood of the unit having mechanical trouble.

Here's a way of expressing the MP3 playback vs. CD & MP3 playback thing in a hypothetical situation, in an engine-vengine context [I'm quite dumb about engine-vengine so please excuse foolish statements, but I'm sure you'll all get my drift]

A really serious sports car meant to be driven really fast and enjoyed by those who know how to enjoy it, such a sports car would need to run on really high-quality fuel, right? Only high-quality fuel would help it perform that way, right?

Now suppose the manufacturer has to make that car run on ordinary unleaded fuel also? Would that car be the same car, performance-wise? No. Would the guy that car is intended for, be able to enjoy it in the same way? No.

This is what I mean to say all along.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

I think it would. Esp. after reading JB's post about the HX-D2 above.

I know little about ICE and even less about electronics, but it doesn't look like adding an MP3 decoder will lessen the quality of CD audio. I may be wrong.

Originally Posted by hydrashok

I quite agree with what Navin has said. And again, in addition to agreeing with what Navin said, and in addition to what I've said above (in response to your "would it cost more" statement):

I personally have nothing against MP3 facility in high-end HUs if adding MP3 facility:

1) Does not make them costlier.
2) Does not make CDs, and the general SQ of the HU sound less good.
3) Does not increase the likelihood of the unit having mechanical trouble.

In broad terms, I feel the same (not like I'm buying an HU tomorrow!). But
1. If you are faced with X, a really fancy-shmancy audiophile HU, and X1, which is X + the ability to play MP3, WMA, DivX, and BT to use with your phone, for $100 extra, which would you choose? I'd take X1.

2. I don't understand why it would matter to the CD-playing capabilities.

3. Again, I don't get it. CDs are read by a laser. MP3 etc are just various forms of encoding, and the difference is in the code (I would think). Why would there be more mechanical trouble?

Originally Posted by hydrashok

Here's a way of expressing the MP3 playback vs. CD & MP3 playback thing in a hypothetical situation, in an engine-vengine context [I'm quite dumb about engine-vengine so please excuse foolish statements, but I'm sure you'll all get my drift]

A really serious sports car meant to be driven really fast and enjoyed by those who know how to enjoy it, such a sports car would need to run on really high-quality fuel, right? Only high-quality fuel would help it perform that way, right?

Now suppose the manufacturer has to make that car run on ordinary unleaded fuel also? Would that car be the same car, performance-wise? No. Would the guy that car is intended for, be able to enjoy it in the same way? No.

This is what I mean to say all along.

Most such cars can run on regular petrol. They contain knock sensors which adjust the ignition timing of the car to deal with fuel quality, to some extent. Also, octane boosters, which are poured in with regular fuel, are easily available. By that measure, your high-end HUs should come with a plug-in chip which enables MP3 playback at EXACTLY the same fidelity as audio CD.

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I know little about ICE and even less about electronics, but it doesn't look like adding an MP3 decoder will lessen the quality of CD audio. I may be wrong.

In broad terms, ... more mechanical trouble?

Well, I'm the same as far as electronics is concerned and most of what I know of ICE is 2nd hand info But this is what I think it would be like, in general terms:

The MP3 decoder would never be able to give the same quality as the original CD. Never. Simply because MP3 is a compressed format and is by birth a few cards short of the full house that the CD is.

Having such a decoder would give the HU the facility of playing back an MP3 CD, no doubt, but still at the much lesser sound quality that an MP3 is capable of.

In a scenario like the one you mentioned earlier [the son, or an even tougher situation, the wife ] wanting to quickly listen to an MP3 in the car, this would be helpful. But the real listener/owner of the HU would be cringing at the uh... abuse of his HU, and at the quality of the output. So this would be convenient, but not essential, or desirable to the kind of guy the HU is aimed at.

By mechanical trouble I intended to mean any kind of trouble, not just mechanical. There would certainly need to be more parts and components and sub-components and firmware/software to enable MP3, without affecting output of the CD.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Most such cars ... your high-end HUs should come with a plug-in chip which enables MP3 playback at EXACTLY the same fidelity as audio CD.

Again, that means additional components and software. And as I said above, MP3s cannot ever have the same fidelity as a CD. And so they are not even an item of consideration for the kind of listeners the HU is aimed at.

[clipto333]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Psst Clip, we shall make 2 high end models of cd receiver, one with mp3 and other without. Dont tell anyone right now.

yes, we need to do it so that everyone is happy. i wont tell dont worry sir.

waise its a nice debate but i would appreciate if everyone is polite. please guys its a request.

clip

[Sam Kapasi]

I think almost everyone is being polite. It is a nice debate. Unfortunately, as with all good debates, I do not see a conclusion.