Audio CD vs 320kbps mp3.. etc.,

[hellspawn]

i really dont know much about whatever you guys are talking about but yes as a noob in this section of the forum,i can differentiate betwwen an mp3 and a audio cd.i thought that the difference between the two would be quite small and you needed specially grown ears to identify like gunbir,jb,sam,navin but its actually quite easily to differentiate between the two.
as far as the high ends hu having mp3 playback is concerned,if you have not compromised anywhere on your hardware why compromise on the software.
if i were asked to buy a hx d2,i wouldnt..not that i cant afford it but because i want more practicality in my system.
its something like,a guy going to ferrari and saying " i want one with 4 seats,a/c,and high fuel efficiency,",the ferrari guy will simply tell him to buy a 4 door sedan.its a fast car and its meant to do just that.anything else,go buy the corolla
if i want to listen to good quality music,i would buy the hxd2....but if i want the best compromise and good features and vfm...i buy the pioneer 6850 like i did.(and the difference between a mp3 and audio cd is even distinguishable on this hu).
if something has been designed for a special function it should do just that.if you want an mp3 player,buy a budget hu.

[EatMyDust]

I'm no audiophile, but atleast I can distinguish between MP3 320kbps and lossless audio content (DVD/ Audio CD) on my home theatre (the one which plays anything except rotis).

But I dont know if I could accomplish this with LBM's ICE setup.

After saying that, I should say also that lossy content is improving by the day. AAC/ AAC+ content and even Real Audio is far far better than MP3. As days pass and the quality of these codecs improve, its gonna be very difficult to differentiate between.

[clipto333]

Originally Posted by gunbir

Really, I don't know why you continue to pursue this when Zuchhero has already detected the difference in your own car... But if you need us to prove this beyond doubt, we're up for it. Of course, by admission you are clearly saying that you, for one, are unable to detect ANY difference.

As for us so called "audiophiles". YES. Of course we can. I can. as can JB, Zuchhero and others. And anybody else who wants to volunteer for this experiment can please step up.

Burn a data CD (disc A) with the best 320 rip you can of a song I choose. Then also burn an audio CD from the same (disc B) 320 rip. and also have the original CD (disc C) at hand.

We will try disc A vs C once in your car. And then disc B Vs C in my car (disc B is reqd. cuz my player doesn't to MP3).

Of course, the purpose of this experiment is to prove the following:

- Whether or not 320 MP3 is distinguishable from Audio CD
- How many people can detect this difference (if any)



Yes, of course. Whats the point of having a high end source if you only have a bottleneck ahead in terms of cables, amps and the most critical, loudspeakers.

\gunbir, what lbm is asking is, can you make out if its a 320 kbps rip playing in his car without listening to the original program? he will play a cd which you wont be knowing if its 320 mp3 or audio cd, can you tell iif its mp3 aor audio cd?

i will again say, this not a valid question lbm paji.

tsk,

yes you have to have good speakers, amps etc for the 50k HU. even for a 5k HU people spend alot on amps spkrs wires etc because if the equipment is bad, everything will sound bad. every component is important in an audio system. everyone knows that. think about it :-)

cheers
clip

[ScarySkulls]

Originally Posted by gunbir

Yes, of course. Whats the point of having a high end source if you only have a bottleneck ahead in terms of cables, amps and the most critical, loudspeakers.

And the very same argument also dictates that when you have sorted out the above said bottlenecks, the playing media and the format being played become the next bottleneck.

So what do we do?
We upgrade to OEM audio cd to sort out the issue of good quality media and format.

What to we gain?
We get improved SQ and there is hardly any bottleneck left in the system anymore except that the HU now becomes the next bottleneck.

What do we do now?
Upgrade to a "reference" grade HU.

What is gained? --> More SQ and no more bottlenecks.
What is lost? --> MP3 , WMA, WAV etc. playing ability.

But once you are at this level, do you think you will EVER bother about what you lost above?

Companies look at the same logic and dont bother spending Insane amounts of $$ in R&D to make a "reference" grade player that also plays your fancy formats.
Why? Because even in such a player the End consumer will probably playing the fancy formats only 5 or 10 times max out of 100. So after spending the hard earned money, will he want to compromise SQ for the other 90 times just because of presence of decoder chips for the fancy formats?

A question now again rises that will anything above bare minimum required affect SQ? (as in presence of decoders)
I am neither an electronic engineer nor an audiophilke to be answering this.
But just know one example from life were I switched off the Internal Amp in an Alpine HU and could notice the difference (it was an expensive install never-the-less).


Disclaimer:-
1)Totally my opinions. Mine and your can differ. Just my way of thinking.

2)What I wrote are my thoughts. If have different then please post yours. But rude comments to mine are not welcome. Thanks.

3)Above post goes into the HU territory inspite of the topic being ONLY about the difference in SQ of different formats. But I these thoughts emerged after reading the whole thread last night which was in the Clarion HU topic. Wanted to post them yesterday. Couldnt do so. So posting them here today.

Thanks again.
TC.

[tsk1979]

So so many people are saying that on great equipment they can differentiate between Audio CD and 320kbps mp3.
Well thats nice.
Now lets come to cars, with really great equipment.
The question is,
"Can you guys differentiate between a 320kbps mp3 and a Audio CD when you are driving in traffic at around 40kmph, or on the highway with tyre noise filtering in?"

[ScarySkulls]

In all probability, Yes.
(considering the fact that as we go from 128kbps to 196 to 256 to.....320kbps in steps, we can see the increasing quality with every step. Same logic when we progress to Original ACD finally...)

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

So so many people are saying that on great equipment they can differentiate between Audio CD and 320kbps mp3.
Well thats nice.
Now lets come to cars, with really great equipment.
The question is,
"Can you guys differentiate between a 320kbps mp3 and a Audio CD when you are driving in traffic at around 40kmph, or on the highway with tyre noise filtering in?"

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/498808-post2.html (Audio CD vs 320kbps mp3.. etc.,)

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

Also while the car is running I think it will be a quite difficult or I would say it will be impossible to tell the difference between the Audio CD and a good 320 bit rate MP3 playing when there is road noise , outside ambient noise and lots of other noises to disturb the whole listening environment.

Sir I asked the same question. And I got this answer

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/498831-post4.html (Audio CD vs 320kbps mp3.. etc.,)

Originally Posted by gunbir

Ya Right... Haha haha hah haha... Seriously though, I can tell the difference. So can many others.

This started me on this thread. Good to hear that Tanveer you are on the practical side rather blinging on the specs.

[navin]

Originally Posted by gunbir

I for one, prefer to spend my hard earned money on a unit that just plays CDs better than all the multimedia units out there. ..For you can already spend $1400 on a average sounding unit that will have GPS MP3 WMA USB etc etc. I'm happy for you.

Sure Gunbir but would you pay more if your exisitng "CD only" could also play Mp3 or other formats. Remember the caeveat "without affecting the sound of the CD output".

[abhi182]

considering the fact that as we go from 128kbps to 196 to 256 to.....320kbps in steps, we can see the increasing quality with every step. Same logic when we progress to Original ACD finally...)

True, but wouldn't you agree that the quality difference betweena 128 and 192 kbps is huge, less so when you progress from 192 to 256...

And I personally can't diffrentiate between 256 and 320 on my near- reference grade home setup (Marantz PM-17 SA II coupled with Phase Technolgies V-12 speakers)

So all the best on diffrentiating between 320 and ACD inside a running car's noisy interiors...

Maybe I'm brass eared, and no golden eared connoisseur
But I'd rather enjoy my music without worrying about some phantom difference ...Thank you!

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by abhi182

I'd rather enjoy my music without worrying about some phantom difference...Thank you!

This is the line I wanna hear from some one without fussing around much.

Cheers Man.

[Sam Kapasi]

LBM, how can you compare anything without a point of reference?

Given the same audio system, with the same settings and same situation, if I bring the same song to your car, one on ACD and the other in MP3 (ANY format) you will hear the difference clearly.

If I was walking in GK-1 and you offered me a lift. If I sat in your car and you turned up the volume and asked me "Sam, is this an ACD or a 320 MP3 playing?" I would say "I don't know"

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

LBM, how can you compare anything without a point of reference?

Given the same audio system, with the same settings and same situation, if I bring the same song to your car, one on ACD and the other in MP3 (ANY format) you will hear the difference clearly.

If I was walking in GK-1 and you offered me a lift. If I sat in your car and you turned up the volume and asked me "Sam, is this an ACD or a 320 MP3 playing?" I would say "I don't know"

I agree with you Sam Bhai but I wanna hear the other Audiophile comments of this forum about it.

[zucchero]

after this thread started,lbm and i were curious to know what exactly the 'difference' is.so yesterday we thought to give it a try.lbm got 2 orignal cds(tracy chapman,michael jackson) and their 320 version.while we were about to begin two friends of our drop down and they too decided to give it a shot.
now we were 4 in all.i and lbm were sittin in front.the moment we switched to michael jackson 320 version,midbass vanished to such an extend that the person sittin in the back seat was surprised.the'concerned' person was wearing a turban(his ears were covered) and there were NO SPEAKERS at the back.just imagine how much of the differene i felt when i was sittin right next to the speakers and that too without a turban.
this is my practical experience.we ALL agreed that the differene was HUGE.i just got my dicor few days back.this beast is amazing.inspite being diesel(3000cc) the in cabin noise is absolutely zero.the engine bay and the in cabin has been DAMPENED in such a way that you hardly hear any'NOISES'.
its hard to IMAGINE that after such good dampening a person will not be able to hear a set up consisting of front 3 way comp,a high end hu,2 massive 12" subs and a monster dedicated amp for the subs and the other one for the speaker?????

[navin]

Originally Posted by Autophile

Lets take an example where we consider HX-D2 which offers Mp3 playback hypothetically.
Clarion has spent a lot of money and R&D ...this HU is expensive and offers very high level of SQ in CD playback.

Now tell me what benefit one can get by playing MP3 on HX-D2 ...
So MP3 lovers and believers, i would say its better not to waste USD 1000+ on a High End HU and get labelled as "Snobish Audiophile" rather stick to USD 100-200 entry level MP3/CD players and be "Practical".

JB, I think you are not getting my argument.

No one said CD = MP3; even in a car HU. Why even on $200-300 HUs CD will sound better than Mp3.

Clarion spent a lot of money producing a CD player that can spin CDs with great accuracy. A lot of this money went into the transport, DAC, pots, and PCBs. Adding a MP3 decoder will not signifcantly add to this cost.

Yes the MP3 output will be limited to the abilities of MP3 but atleast the player will produce some sound instead of spitting it out. In fact I am willing to bet that MP3 played on the hypothetical HXD2 would sound better than Mp3s played on a $200-300 Pio or Alpine or even Clarion. That is becase it would still have the superb transport.

When I had the chance I should have compared the Mp3 output of the 7998 vs an ordinary decks like the 9833/9835 but I did not. Maybe you can and give us your feedback. Does the 7998 do a better job with Mp3s than it's poorer cousins?

So like Hydra says in his post #72 on this thread
"I personally have nothing against MP3 facility in high-end HUs if adding MP3 facility:

1) Does not make them costlier.
2) Does not make CDs, and the general SQ of the HU sound less good.
3) Does not increase the likelihood of the unit having mechanical trouble"

I would just rephrase this to say
I would welcome high-end HUs that can also play Mp3 if adding the MP3 facility....

Maybe I would still NOT buy these HUs after all I did not buy the 7998 either. After all I am a cheapskate. I guess some call that being practical.

I would welcome such HUs not becuase I would be a customer but becuase I feel it would better for the general good.

As you know I use an ipod (encoded with LAME APE MP3) with el cheapo headphones (Beyer DT880 now) in my car most of the time anyway. Dont even carry my airhead. I thought about installing the airhead in my arm rest but my son wanted that space for his in car Matchbox truck/cars. My son is so much more important to me that my airhead.

[panky12345]

As SAM correctly said, there would be a difference in same track on an MP3 and ACD on the same sytem with same settings...but what LBM is trying to say that if a person cant judge whatss playing (i.e. ACD or an MP3) in a moving car with road noise; whatss the point of not a having MP3 in a high end system??

LBM, correct me if I'm wrong but I think thats the only reason why you are asking the audiophiles to comment.