ICE upgrade for OHC VTEC. Gurus please help.

[vishnuvijay]

Hi all, finally, i got a job. I'm planning to spend the first few months of my savings from my salary on components, amplifiers and subwoofers.

Existing setup:
H U - Pioneer 5950 (It has a subwoofer output)
Front - Kenwood KFC-1650SB 160W Dual Cone
Rear - JBL GTO937 6x9 3 Way Coaxial

The Car is an OHC VTEC. I'm going to trash my front speakers as these are crap. I'm going to keep the remaining.

My music ( to help the gurus decide whats best for me ):
Mainly listen to classic rock songs from artists/bands like Steppenwolf, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Scorpions, AC/DC, CCR etc, Disco and Pop songs from 70's and 80's.

Here goes the doubts and questions.

Front Components:
By going through some of the threads, i see that most of the experts here recommend front component speakers.

->Are components required for my kind of songs?

->Or should I go for coaxials and tweeters in the front?

If components are required, I'm going to go for JBL 607c. If not, then I'll have JBL coaxials and tweeters.

Subwoofer:
Do I need subwoofer? I usually don't play boom boom kind of songs unless it's for showing off.

->Does playing rock songs require a subwoofer?

If i have to go for it, then I think I'll go for JBL. I had read in a thread where Sam had wrote that for tight bass, 10" subwoofer is recommended.

->What is 'tight bass'? Does it mean that for rock songs, 8" or 10" is the correct size and for 'boom boom'/hip hop music, 12" or 15" is the correct size?

->What subwoofer size do I require?

->Should I go for JBL Bass Box/Bass Tube or have a custom made box?

Amplifier:
I'm on a tight budget and cannot buy an expensive amplifier. Say I have components and a subwoofer along with my GTO937 6x9s.

->Should I power both front components and rear 6x9s with a 4 channel amplifier and power the subwoofer with a 2 channel amplifier ( I cannot afford a monoblock )?
OR
->Should I power the front components and the subwoofer with a 4 channel amplifier and power the rear 6x9's with the head unit?

->If I power the front components and the rear 6x9s with the amplifier, will the rear 6x9s be louder than the front components?

->Is it better to power the rear 6x9s with the head unit so that I can feel the front components better?

I don't want the expensive components to go waste.

I would really like to go for the JBL GTO75.4 but I'm on a budget. So I think JBL CS60.4 or Pioneer GM-6300F will be a better choice. Both of these 4 channel amplifiers have 60 watts of power per channel.

->Which of them is better (JBL CS60.4 or Pioneer GM-6300F)?

If I'm to buy a subwoofer, I'll power it with a Pioneer GM-5300T 2 channel amplifier which has 380 watts in bridged mode.

As I can't afford all of this at one go, I think I'll upgrade bit by bit.

->What should be the order of my upgrade?

Please give your valuable comments and suggestions.

[Sam Kapasi]

What a clear, fantastic and easy to understand post. Even though you have too many questions (lol) your post was a pleasure to read.

Firstly, congratulations on the job!

Now let's get to it:

I'm going to trash my front speakers as these are crap.

Yes that seems like a good idea.

Front Components:
By going through some of the threads, i see that most of the experts here recommend front component speakers.

->Are components required for my kind of songs?

->Or should I go for coaxials and tweeters in the front?

If components are required, I'm going to go for JBL 607c. If not, then I'll have JBL coaxials and tweeters.

Coaxials+tweeters is an incorrect thing to do. Too many tweeters in the front and that causes various errors in the listening process. Don't do it. You should be choosing between coaxials and components. Between those 2 options, the components are a clear winner.
Yes for your kind of music.

->What is 'tight bass'? Does it mean that for rock songs, 8" or 10" is the correct size and for 'boom boom'/hip hop music, 12" or 15" is the correct size?

->What subwoofer size do I require?

->Should I go for JBL Bass Box/Bass Tube or have a custom made box?

Tight bass, put loosely (heh heh) is hard, non boomy, quick bass. Where the note ends when it's supposed to. The opposite of that is boomy bass. Boomy bass is not necessarily accurate but can be a source of great entertainment and pleasure.
I think a good compromise for you would be to either go for the CS1204B sealed box (I recommend JBL as that is your preference) or to buy a 12" driver (Currently available are the GTO1264 and the GT4-12) and get a custom sealed box made.
The 10" bass tube (CS1004T) is less boomy and fantastic VFM and is very very easy to drive using a small 2 channel amplifier, so that's not a bad option if your budget is low.

Amplifier:
I'm on a tight budget and cannot buy an expensive amplifier. Say I have components and a subwoofer along with my GTO937 6x9s.

->1. Should I power both front components and rear 6x9s with a 4 channel amplifier and power the subwoofer with a 2 channel amplifier ( I cannot afford a monoblock )? This would be a pretty good option, but if you use a powerful woofer with a weak amp, you may not be able to enoy as much bass as you would like to.
If this is your combination, then I would use the more powerful channels to drive the subwoofer and the weaker amp to drive the GTO937.
OR
->2. Should I power the front components and the subwoofer with a 4 channel amplifier and power the rear 6x9's with the head unit? Yes, you can, nothing wrong with this arrangement.

->3. If I power the front components and the rear 6x9s with the amplifier, will the rear 6x9s be louder than the front components? It's up to you and your settings. With the right HPF filter on, you will find that turning up the fronts nice and loud, louder than the rear, will be an exhilarating experience.

->4. Is it better to power the rear 6x9s with the head unit so that I can feel the front components better? Basically you are asking if option 2 is better. If you have a subwoofer, the priority is to amplify the front components.

->Which of them is better (JBL CS60.4 or Pioneer GM-6300F)?

The CS60.4 is a better amplifier, but the Pioneer GM-6300F is better value for money.

If I'm to buy a subwoofer, I'll power it with a Pioneer GM-5300T 2 channel amplifier which has 380 watts in bridged mode.

On a budget, that seems to be a good thing to do.

->What should be the order of my upgrade?

• Front components
• 4ch. Amplifier
• Subwoofer
• 2ch. or mono amplifier

Cheers and enjoyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[hydrashok]

Wow! You have sure have spent some effort in deciding what you need.

1) Definitely Components, if you have the budget (I'm sure you do). They cost just a bit more than coaxials but the improvement in sound is really worht it. And you plan on a 4-ch amp anyway, so again, definitely components.

Coaxials already have a tweeter mounted in axis with the woofer, so you don't need a separate tweeter. In fact, adding a tweeter with coaxials will only make the overall setup sound less good. If you do buy coaxials, don't get a separate tweeter.

Since you have GTO937s in back, your choice of GTO607c for front is the best choice.

2) Regardless of the genre of music, a well-chosen subwoofer will always improve the sound. But of you're not too sure of how much you want to improve the overall sound, vis-a-vis the added cost and loss of boot space, I think you should try adding just a 4-ch amp (amp the fronts and rears) for now and see how much you like it. Maybe you'll be satisfied with just this. If now, you can always add a sub and run it off the rear channels of the same map (with the rears running off the HU's rear channels).

In most cases this would do. If you don't mind spending a little extra, you can always get a 2-ch amp as your next upgrade to run the sub, and then switch the rears back to the 4-ch amp.

3) If you get a sub, I'd suggest getting a 12" sub. You have a car with a closed boot and a single 10" may not give you the bass you have paid for (inside the cabin). A good 12" will play all genre well enough. Put it in a sealed box, and you get good, tight bass. (The CS60.4 will not be able to power a 12" in a sealed bpx well enough, though).

A JBL GT-412 (5K) would be a good choice for a sub driver. You can get a sealed box (of 1 cu.ft) made by your installer (should be 1200/- to 1500/-). Or you can get a CS1204B, the JBL sub-in-a-sealed-box solution (about 8k).

A tube will be quite boomy and will not give tight bass. But the CS60.4 will be able to power the JBL bass tube (CS1204T, 6000/-) pretty well. You can always try listening to one at the installers and see if you like its sound.

4) Between the 6300 and the 60.4 I'd take the 60.4. Basically because the rest of the stuff in the car is JBL anyway, and getting it all from one place would be a good idea (better discounts, better install).

If you do have the option of a 60.4 or a 6300 from the same shop, you can just audition both in your car and decide which sounds better to you. ANd I think, with B&W, the 60.4 is likely to be less costly (8K with B&W, with the 6300 being 7K without B&W -- dunno price with B&W).

5) I'd suggest you upgrade like this:

Stage 1: Comps in front + 4ch amp.
Stage 2: Add a sub, if you feel like one. Run it off the rear channels of the 4-ch amp, with the rear speakers running off the HU.
Stage 3: If you feel like it, get a 2-ch amp/mono amp for the sub, and power the rears from the rear channels of the 4ch amp.
Stage 4: Stop, or you'll never be able to later

Try the JBL brand shop/AM Car decor on the NH Byepass (opposite Chirayath cars). You'll find all you need there, in one shop.

EDIT: Ooops! Just saw Sam's post!

[vishnuvijay]

Thank you Sam, for your comments and your suggestions. Your reply was fantastic and easy to understand too. Why did you say that CS60.4 is better than GM-6300F? Both of them have 60 watts of power per channel.

[vishnuvijay]

Thank you hydrashok. I was really looking forward to a reply from Sam and you.

The GTO937 6x9s has a rms power of 100 watts. If I power these with the head unit (which has only 22 watts per channel ), wouldn't that be an unjustifiable thing to do to these speakers? I want to get that best out of these 6x9 speakers but I do not want miss out on the sound from the front components. I'm confused.

hydrashok, I always buy all car stuffs form Car Palace ( opposite edapally palli ). I think I'll buy from there as I may get better discounts there. And also, the installer at the Car Palace does a pretty good too.

I'm from Cochin too hydrashok. Maybe I can check out your 'addipolli' palio sometime.

[DerAlte]

Wow. An excellent example of very lucid requirement expression, and an even more lucid solution expressions.

Sam, Hydra, you have outdone yourself!

And Sam, congratulations for reaching that milestone (the "Million thanks" part)!

I guess the JBL sub solution would be equally relevant in the Spark ICE thread, model numbers and all.

[speedzak]

Nice to know that more and more people in our city is getting ICE-WISE!!
Congrats on your job and that good car you have. It'll be great to see it getting ICEd.

Some good suggestions have been posted already. I am sure you won't loose yourself with those valuable words guiding you.

Nice choice of equipments for upgrade. Your 5950 HU offers 3preouts so you can utilise all your speakers with 2 amps. It's recommended you get a monoblock amp and a 4channel amp. That will make your setup rock. Check out the Pioneer amps. As said earlier, They're not the best but very good VFM they are! If you know the good tricks of bargaining, it will stick inside your budget.

When do we get to see the setup? We are quiet a bad group of people when it comes to people who get their cars ICEd. We are fond of Pizza hut too!

[hydrashok]

Originally Posted by vishnuvijay

...
The GTO937 6x9s has a rms power of 100 watts. If I power these with the head unit (which has only 22 watts per channel ), wouldn't that be an unjustifiable thing to do to these speakers? I want to get that best out of these 6x9 speakers but I do not want miss out on the sound from the front components. I'm confused.

If you aren't getting a sub now, the 4-ch amp will power the fronts and the rears. You'll need to run the rears form the HU only if you're getting a a sub.

If you get the sub, all the bass you need is taken care of. The 6x9s will only need to do support duty, so the HU power will be enough.

I'm sure you'll be happy with the setup with the 6x9s running off the HU (if you add a sub). And even the 4-ch amp powering the front & back speakers (without a sub in the picture) could keep you happy if you're not a bass-head. [But adding a sub will improve things even further]. Doing things in stages as you so rightly want to do, will let you know what you want (or don't want) next.

And don't worry about the sound from the front comps. In any case you'll be amping them, so they will sound really good -- with the 6x9s running off the HU or off the amp.

Originally Posted by vishnuvijay

... hydrashok, I always buy all car stuffs form Car Palace ( opposite edapally palli ). I think I'll buy from there as I may get better discounts there. And also, the installer at the Car Palace does a pretty good too.

I'm from Cochin too hydrashok. Maybe I can check out your 'addipolli' palio sometime.

Ya, I know that place (Car Palace). They were among the first few car accessory people in Kochi, I think. I'd bought a Kenwood CD changer from them long back, when I used to run a Kenwood HU. They did do a good job.

Sure, I'd love to meet-up. Like Zak said, we can all meet in the weekend or something. Don't worry about the Pizza, Zak still owes us Kochi guys a treat (before the next treat that's probably coming up from him). Nikki, where are you?

[vishnuvijay]

Originally Posted by speedzak

Check out the Pioneer amps. As said earlier, They're not the best but very good VFM they are! If you know the good tricks of bargaining, it will stick inside your budget.

When do we get to see the setup? We are quiet a bad group of people when it comes to people who get their cars ICEd. We are fond of Pizza hut too!

If JBL CS60.4 and Pioneer GM-6300F are of the same performance, I think I'll buy Pioneer. I have thought about getting a Pioneer GM-5300T to power the subwoofer. In that way, I'll have Pioneer head unit and amplifiers and JBL speakers and subwoofer.

I'll start working only from sep 07. That means the setup will have to wait 1 to 2 months, atleast. I like 'Cocco Tree' better.

[vishnuvijay]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

Sure, I'd love to meet-up. Like Zak said, we can all meet in the weekend or something. Don't worry about the Pizza, Zak still owes us Kochi guys a treat (before the next treat that's probably coming up from him). Nikki, where are you?

I'll be leaving for Trivandrum this weekend. Thats where I'll be working, in Technopark. But we'll meet sometime for sure. I couldn't come to the Team-BHP Cochin meet where you guys had fun at the White Fort, which is very close to my home.

hydrashok, I have plans for Stanley Art Leather seat covers too. Thats why my ICE setup is on a budget. I went to Emperor, Palarivattom, and talked to the guy there. He said Rs.9000 for the seats and Rs.2000 for the doors pads.

[vishnuvijay]

Can anybody tell me which among the following is the better amplifier:


-> Pioneer GM-6200F/GM-6300F

Output Power (4 Ohm, <=1% THD) 60 Watts x 4

Output Power (4 Ohm Bridged, <=1% THD) 150 Watts x 2

Output Power (2 Ohm, <=1% THD) 75 Watts x 4

Signal to Noise (1 Watt into 4 Ohms) 80 dBA

Dynamic Power (4 Ohm) 60 Watts

Peak Music Power 600 Watts

Number of Channels 4

Load Impedance Capability 2~8 Ohm (Stereo), 4~8 Ohm (Bridged)

Continuous Power (4 ohm) 60W x 4

Continuous Power (2 ohm) 75W x 4

Continuous Power Bridged (4 ohm) 150W x 2

Frequency Response 10Hz ~ 50kHz

Total Harmonic Distortion 0.010%

Signal-to-Noise Ratio >95dB

Dimensions11-13/16" x 2-3/8" x 13-1/8" ( 300 mm x 60 mm x 334 mm)


-> JBL CS60.4

Power Output 60 watts RMS x 4 channel at 4 ohms and ≤ 1% THD + N

S/N Ratio86dBA (reference 1 watts into 4 ohms)

Dynamic Power145 watts at 2 ohms

Effective Damping Factor 6.39 at 4 ohms

Frequency Response 10Hz - 27kHz (-3dB)

Maximum Input Signal 6.0V

Maximum Sensitivity 100mV

Dimensions2.2" x 13" x 10.3"

I got these specifications from their respective websites.

Both have 60 watts rms power. The Pioneer is more expensive than JBL by Rs.2000 (approx).

[akg7091]

I think, and I may be wrong, that it is always better to buy stuff with b/w if the option is available. Now, pioneer in itself is a verrrrrry nice brand, and if you had been comparing to a lesser known brand with similar specs I would have recommended pio too. But you are comparing it to JBL !
JBL is one of the best available. And you are saving money by buying JBL.
You are also getting a warranty ( God forbid you ever need it ) which equals to peace of mind.

Buy the JBL with your eyes closed IMHO unless you know something specific about the pio amp

[panky12345]

vishnu, the RMS mentioned on various brands doesnt be necessarily the true ones. Go with JBL & u'll be better off.

[Dhar's]

Originally Posted by vishnuvijay

Can anybody tell me which among the following is the better amplifier:


-> Pioneer GM-6200F/GM-6300F

-> JBL CS60.4

Does the GM6300F has a variable XO? CS60.4 has one.
Why not put in those extra Ks and go for 75.4? I guess it is worth an investment now.

[navin]

between the 60.4 and the 75.4 JBL has a 4060. it will only be available for this year so get it if you can. It costs about 2K more than the 60.4 i think.