How to get Tighter bass from 6x9 Speakers?

[gopz]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Roll up the windows. Play some bass heavy music. Run the balance from center to full left, then to full right and back to center.

Repeat as often as you like.

Does it sound like that bass is least when the balance is in the centre? Does the bass rise a little when you go either full left or full right? You phase is out.

If you have max bass in the centre and it drops to 50% on full left or right, then your speakers are wired in phase.

WOW thats a nice tip, Sam! How do we find out if the phase is correct for a subwoofer?

[Sam Kapasi]

Unless you have 2 subwoofers, there would rarely be a need. However, it is recommended that the subwoofer be in phase with the rest of the system.

In the case of most modern HU's, a simple switch will allow you to switch the phase of your subwoofer. Otherwise you would have to reverse the wires going to the subwooofer.

If you have 2 subwoofers playing out of phase with each other, it will be all to easy - the result will be little or no bass, no matter what the volume.

[abhibh]

Ok this may sound stupid but what is "Tight Bass"

Any example sound for this ?

[anupmathur]

Tightness on bass would also be influenced by the damping factor of the power amp.
Gurus?

[Sam Kapasi]

How does one describe tight bass? Sound is subjective and cannot be understood, unless you hear it.

Tight bass is defined as clear, quick and crisp. A deep and clear note with little or no after-notes. No boommm.
It is accurate and precise.

The opposite of this is boomy bass. Excessively deep and well, boomy. Purists scoff at this kind of bass, but many young people enjoy it a lot. It also depends on the kind of music you listen too.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Tightness on bass would also be influenced by the damping factor of the power amp.
Gurus?

A good pair of squawkers (yes, midrangers!) would help make the bass tighter sounding or more punchy.

This is, of course, in addition to factors already mentioned w.r.t. enclosure size etc..

[Ajaybiz]

Tight bass is Dhak Dhak and and boom is boooommm boooommm i may sound stupid but its laymans defination.
"Audio for Dummies".

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by Ajaybiz

Tight bass is Dhak Dhak and and boom is boooommm boooommm i may sound stupid but its laymans defination.
"Audio for Dummies".

Hi Ajay! (Gives me the feeling I'm talking to myself)

That would be right as a layman's definition but the problem is 'dhak dhak' is more like lower midbass, while 'booom' could be a deep rumble built into the track. If it was intended to play as 'booommm', you dont want it to go 'dhakkkk'.

The idea of good bass is to have sufficient low frequency response, no peaks or dips at any bands, quick and agile bass that does not lag behind everything else, and well damped i.e. cone remaining in control and recovering quick enough from the previous bass note that sent it into oscillation to play the next one heading its way.

[navin]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Hi Ajay! (Gives me the feeling I'm talking to myself).

so? what's new?

[anuragn]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

ANurag, apart from all this I will ask you to check the phase of your rear speakers.

To do this, simply reverse the wire on any ONE of the 2 GTO937s. Reverese the + and - connections. Get back into the car and listen. If the bass has improved - there is your problem.

Sadly we have found out that a good percentage of installs still suffer from this simple problem. Please do check.

Thanks Sam. I never thought about this. Will check and confirm.
But atleast by looking at the connections at the speakers, the phase appears correct in both of them...so only possibility could be a manufacturing defect. Anywway will checkand come back.
And one more thing to mention: I have recently redone the speaker cabling, about 3 weeks ago...now I have Pro-FX Oxygen-free wires running for all the 4 speakers. And the sound quality has definitely improved.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Tight bass is defined as clear, quick and crisp. A deep and clear note with little or no after-notes. No boommm.
It is accurate and precise.

Very well put.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

The idea of good bass is to have sufficient low frequency response, .... , quick and agile bass that does not lag behind everything else, and well damped i.e. cone remaining in control and recovering quick enough from the previous bass note that sent it into oscillation to play the next one heading its way.

These are good definitions. They convey the idea quite sufficiently.

Originally Posted by anuragn

My question: Without installing subs & amp, what could be done to improve the bass response ... i.e. make it tighter and deeper? Pl note that I do not want to install the drivers in boxes and lose out some boot space.
Will it serve the purpose if I add extra inductance coils in the cross-over?

The first part of the above query lays down a limitation, or constraint - no boxes that will cause loss of boot space.
The second part, about adding extra inductors; hum... well, I would say NO. That will only aggravate the problem of 'loose' bass. The more reactive components you add to your load, the poorer is going to be the tightness or punchiness on bass (frequency band 40 to 400, or so). Unless you really design XOs to a very high standard to make the overall impedance 'look' reasonably constant over a fairly large bandwidth. That is MHO.

Now that leaves rather little to 'play around with'. Hence my suggestion to try out the options that remain:
1) Try another good amp that is known to be capable of providing 'well controlled' bass, ie. one with a very good damping factor, say 1000 or so.
2) Ensure that the squawkers (mid-range units) are high quality because they certainly have a large influence on the perceived 'tightness' or 'punchiness' of the bass.

or, with a slight compromise on 'the brief':

3) Perhaps design a 'very shallow' (say 4 inches deep) box for the 6X9s and this box hangs in place of the parcel tray. This would still leave the major part of the boot space available. There would be scope to have a box volume of maybe 12 to 15 litres for the two 6X9 units.
4) Replace the two 6X9 units with stiffer suspension units if possible. This is an independent approach, not linked to proposal #3. (I'm not familiar at all with what is available in the market).

Gurus, your opinions please?

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

A good pair of squawkers (yes, midrangers!)

Oye hoye, purane dinon ki yaad dila di, Mathur sahab. Haven't heard the word 'squawkers' in ages.

Sir, Mahabharat will start all over again if you mention damping (that saga is there in a couple of threads here).

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

... cone remaining in control and recovering quick enough from the previous bass note that sent it into oscillation to play the next one heading its way.

Waah, B&T-bhai, fundoo description .

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Gives me the feeling I'm talking to myself. ...
__________________
I found out I was God when I was praying and I realized that I was talking to myself.

Originally Posted by navin

so? what's new?

Only a jingle is missing. B&T-bhai, this is becoming way too mathematical - now the equation solution has to make an assumption that @ajaybiz = God. And by extension of logic the regular expression *ajay* = God. Jai ho!

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Oye hoye, purane dinon ki yaad dila di, Mathur sahab. Haven't heard the word 'squawkers' in ages.

That is exactly what tempted me to use the term. Haven't seen it used on any of the threads here......

Meets with approval or dis-approval? Sorry, I am a man from the 'purane din'!

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

1) Try another good amp that is known to be capable of providing 'well controlled' bass, ie. one with a very good damping factor, say 1000 or so.

But it will cost a fortune. Cheaper option is to buy a better driver.

Originally Posted by anupmathur

2) Ensure that the squawkers (mid-range units) are high quality because they certainly have a large influence on the perceived 'tightness' or 'punchiness' of the bass.

Totally agree. The perception of bass and especially midbass is greatly influenced by the overtones.

Originally Posted by anupmathur

4) Replace the two 6X9 units with stiffer suspension units if possible. This is an independent approach, not linked to proposal #3. (I'm not familiar at all with what is available in the market).

This is extremely difficult, if not impossible for a novice. But 6x9s mostly come with a stiff spider anyway.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

But it will cost a fortune. Cheaper option is to buy a better driver.

Might be possible to 'try' another amp. ONLY if the results merit can a purchase be contemplated....
As you are well aware, there are no guarantees in this business. A lot of is 'trial & error'. (Which, BTW, I'm finding is often referred to as 'tuning' these days!).

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

But it will cost a fortune. Cheaper option is to buy a better driver.

Which I have mentioned in proposal #4.

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

This is extremely difficult, if not impossible for a novice. But 6x9s mostly come with a stiff spider anyway.

As I said earlier, I'm not familiar with what the market has to offer here. There is, otherwise, a fairly wide range of 6X9s on the market, right from soft to stiff suspensions. 6X9s are perhaps the most commonly used drivers for ICE.

And it not so much just the spiders that affect suspension as the cone-surround material. It is always the combination of the two. For small sealed boxes, a rather compliant unit would give the 'tightest' bass, albeit at poor efficiency.