How to get Tighter bass from 6x9 Speakers?

[anuragn]

Hi,
I have the following set-up in my Wagon-R:
HU:Sony GT-560
Front: CS2104
Rear: GTO 937 (installed in the parcel tray)

Now, my problem is that I feel the bass is a bit on the looser side, probably due to the very high input sensitivity of the drivers (94dB) and, also becoz they should have ideally been installed in boxes for better bass response.

My question: Without installing subs & amp, what could be done to improve the bass response ... i.e. make it tighter and deeper? Pl note that I do not want to install the drivers in boxes and lose out some boot space.
Will it serve the purpose if I add extra inductance coils in the cross-over?

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by anuragn

My question: Without installing subs & amp, what could be done to improve the bass response ... i.e. make it tighter and deeper? Pl note that I do not want to install the drivers in boxes and lose out some boot space.
Will it serve the purpose if I add extra inductance coils in the cross-over?

To get some punch you will have to go for a enclosure. Add a inductor will make a LPF filter, it means it will filter out some High freq.

[adityamunshi]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

To get some punch you will have to go for a enclosure. Add a inductor will make a LPF filter, it means it will filter out some High freq.

How do you do that ??
Sorry...

[jkdas]

your HU has lpf/hpf settings? Would have been easier if it has.
Did you try playing around with bass settings?

[navin]

Originally Posted by anuragn

HU:Sony GT-560
Front: CS2104
Rear: GTO 937 (installed in the parcel tray)

Now, my problem is that I feel the bass is a bit on the looser side

My question: Without installing subs & amp, what could be done to improve the bass response ... i.e. make it tighter and deeper? Pl note that I do not want to install the drivers in boxes and lose out some boot space.
Will it serve the purpose if I add extra inductance coils in the cross-over?

box the 937 and the bass wil tighten.

[vid6639]

Navinji, I have boxed my 6X9 but still don't find the bass to be really tight. Although my setup was boxed from teh beginning, so i dont know how it will sound with a parcel shelf on my Alto.

I have done some experimenting and achieved something I like from a modest setup.

My pio 6X9's are running of a 2 channel amp sony 552.
The 4" front coax are running off the HU.

In the pio 5750 HU I have setup the preout of the amp to subwoofer mode and set the freq to cutoff to 80Hz from the HU. The subwoofer mode in the HU control's the rear speakers level and freq.

The front coax's have a HPF of 80Hz.

This way I get the vocals from the front 4" without them jarring with teh low freq and the rear's give just the frequencies below 80Hz and none of the tizzying treble from the pios.

Any comments on this? Sounds pretty good to me since I don't have rear passengers often. Also the soundstage has moved to the front except teh lower frequencies which come from the rear.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by vid6639

Navinji, I have boxed my 6X9 but still don't find the bass to be really tight. Although my setup was boxed from teh beginning, so i dont know how it will sound with a parcel shelf on my Alto.

Almost all 6x9s are designed to work in free air, have a very high Fs, Qts. Putting them in a box only helps prevent cancellation that could happen on a parcel shelf but this is also minimal if the 6x9s are HPFed. So yeah, boxing is not always going to help.

Originally Posted by vid6639

In the pio 5750 HU I have setup the preout of the amp to subwoofer mode and set the freq to cutoff to 80Hz from the HU. The subwoofer mode in the HU control's the rear speakers level and freq.

The main thwack in the mid-bass is lost by doing this. You are running a Bose kind of system . It would be a better idea to disconnect the tweeter section and to run the rears fully flat instead. The other thing you could do is put an inductor in the path to roll off the highs. This can also be done with the 'ASL' feature in Pioneers. Not sure whether yours has it.

[Nimz]

@ Vids - Why have you got a 6x9 speaker at the rear? What advantages does it hold over a 6" co-ax?

Would a 6" co-ax have tighter bass (maybe lesser bass as the volume of air moved will be less).

@Gurus - What is the difference(s) between an oval construction and a circular construction of coax speakers?

[vid6639]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

The main thwack in the mid-bass is lost by doing this. You are running a Bose kind of system . It would be a better idea to disconnect the tweeter section and to run the rears fully flat instead. The other thing you could do is put an inductor in the path to roll off the highs. This can also be done with the 'ASL' feature in Pioneers. Not sure whether yours has it.

If i disconnect the tweeter, the vocals and the midbass will still be at the rear right? The soundstage will not be there at the front. So your saying is that there's still a band of freq missing as the 4" really can't go till 80Hz too well. More like midrange.

Inductor value pleeeeeeej?

ASL = Automatic sound leveliser? I have SLA. I don't think this is the same.

Originally Posted by Nimz

@ Vids - Why have you got a 6x9 speaker at the rear? What advantages does it hold over a 6" co-ax?

Would a 6" co-ax have tighter bass (maybe lesser bass as the volume of air moved will be less).

@Gurus - What is the difference(s) between an oval construction and a circular construction of coax speakers?

Nimz, the alto has no provision for speakers on the doors and I was looking at more bass hence the 6X9. 6" will have lesser bass than the 6X9 as the cone area is lesser and liek you said volume of air moved will be less.

Oval construction 6X9 provides more cone area than the 6" round and takes up lesser space. I guess a 8" round will provide similar bass but it will not fit in easily in many car's in the rear parcel shelf.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by vid6639

If i disconnect the tweeter, the vocals and the midbass will still be at the rear right? The soundstage will not be there at the front.

The first principle of a good frontstage would be to have more clean power available for the fronts. But in your case it is the opposite. The rears will always sound louder than the fronts unless you set the gain on the rears very very low, or fade (same thing). In the latter, it would be almost the same as running it off the head unit itself! If you were running a real sub in the back it would be ok, but 6x9s have a Fs of around 65-70Hz. By cutting it off at 80 Hz, I'm sure you can guess what frequency band it is playing. (One of the reasons I called it Bose ) Hence the rears are nothing like a sub - the only creatures deserving of a 80Hz LPF.

Originally Posted by vid6639

So your saying is that there's still a band of freq missing as the 4" really can't go till 80Hz too well. More like midrange.

I'm afraid so. A 4" is a small area. To produce bass well and as effortlessly as the rest of the higher frequencies, it needs good power and a solid enclosure. Otheriwse it aint happening. So not exactly midrange, but a full range huffing and puffing to produce bass and mids, with hardly enough power and upto its ears in acoustically unacceptable environmental factors. It would be happier doing something 160-200Hz upwards, it will play louder and cleaner. (We're starting to sound like Bose again )

Originally Posted by vid6639

Inductor value pleeeeeeej?

First order, if you want to roll off around 300-350 Hz, you're looking at about 1.8 to 2 millihenries.

Originally Posted by vid6639

ASL = Automatic sound leveliser? I have SLA. I don't think this is the same.

No, they're not the same. And its not ASL either. Its FIE (front image enhancer). Sorry about that. Didnt remember what it was exactly called. Some models had a selectable frequency for FIE.

Originally Posted by Nimz

@ Vids - Why have you got a 6x9 speaker at the rear? What advantages does it hold over a 6" co-ax?

More cone area.

Originally Posted by Nimz

Would a 6" co-ax have tighter bass (maybe lesser bass as the volume of air moved will be less).

Tight bass is not a quality of the size of the driver generally speaking. Moving lesser air has nothing to do with it either. Its all a matter of how well the speakers are designed. But for a similarly built 6" and 6x9", you'll get more bass with a 6x9 for the same input power.

Originally Posted by Nimz

@Gurus - What is the difference(s) between an oval construction and a circular construction of coax speakers

There could be a lot of differences like the 6x9 having a larger magnet and voice coil, hence higher power handling etc. But fundamentally, greater cone area.

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

This can also be done with the 'ASL' feature in Pioneers. Not sure whether yours has it.

That was FIE (Front Image Enhancer) the ASL is for AUTO SOUND LEVEL with take the reference of the ambient noise like road noise, traffic.

[Nimz]

thanks so much vids and LBM for the clarifications..

Nimz

[Sam Kapasi]

ANurag, apart from all this I will ask you to check the phase of your rear speakers.

To do this, simply reverse the wire on any ONE of the 2 GTO937s. Reverese the + and - connections. Get back into the car and listen. If the bass has improved - there is your problem.

Sadly we have found out that a good percentage of installs still suffer from this simple problem. Please do check.

[agentsmith]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

To do this, simply reverse the wire on any ONE of the 2 GTO937s. Reverese the + and - connections. Get back into the car and listen. If the bass has improved - there is your problem.

Sam is there a tell-tale sign to look for to check for this problem? Basically, how do I ensure that I don't have this issue. FWIW, I've been pretty satisfied with the GTO937s.

Regards,

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by agentsmith

Sam is there a tell-tale sign to look for to check for this problem? ,

Roll up the windows. Play some bass heavy music. Run the balance from center to full left, then to full right and back to center.

Repeat as often as you like.

Does it sound like that bass is least when the balance is in the centre? Does the bass rise a little when you go either full left or full right? You phase is out.

If you have max bass in the centre and it drops to 50% on full left or right, then your speakers are wired in phase.