need help configuring my ICE

[rider60]

AMPLIFIER #1

http://www.sony.co.in/product/xm-zr6...ite=hp_en_IN_i

this is the link to my two channel amp which is 350 watts this page contains both the features and the technical specifications you asked me to post you


AMPLIFIER #2

http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProdu...ICA+Amplifiers

this is the link to my 4/3 channel xm-504z sony xplode amplifier, now i think you can tell me which configuration is the one which can give me best sounding music,

PIONEER SUB-WOOFER:

http://www.pioneer.com.sg/storefront...&CatId=2,27,36

this is the exact woofer i have in my car its mentioned 900watts behind though,


HEAD UNIT:
the head unit is pioneer 6850 i dont remember the exact model number which is close to the link below, the link i could find was to deh-p6950
http://www.pioneer.com.sg/storefront...&CatId=2,24,32
well mine has the output for the front , subwoofer and the rear speakers sperately! it has two allowed AUX ports and an ipod connect right below the panel face of the HU!

REAR CO-AXIALS:
my rear speakers are 420watts ones the model number is TS-A6981S which are actually two years old! i could not find the site for these rear coaxials so just posted them with the correct model numbers!

FRONT COMPONENTS:

here is the link to my jbl gto607c components for the technical specifications sake,

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/prod...at=COS&ser=GTS


now my query is that what is the best way to connect and configure the ICE?
which amp do i use to power the sub woofer? whichamp do i use to power the components and which ones do i use to power the coaxials at rear?


which would be the best sounding configuration for the best sounding music?
gurus please help me configure for the optimum performance with this setup!


thanks a ton in advance!

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by rider60

...
which would be the best sounding configuration for the best sounding music?
gurus please help me configure for the optimum performance with this setup!

You don't have much choice there, so go for the simplest:

1. Connect the Front and Rear Preamp-OUTs to the 4channel amp and the Sub-OUT to the 2-channel
2. Bridge the 2-channel amp and connect the Pio sub to it
3. Connect the front compos and the rear coaxes to the 4-channel amp
4. Set all tone controls to flat at the HU, Fader to 0. Play your favorite CD
5. Set the LPF at the sub amp to 80Hz, and for the time being keep the volume to the lowest at the 2-ch amp
6. Set the HPFs at the 4ch amp to 80Hz
7. Set the front volume at the 4-ch amp to a comfortable listening level, with the HU volume set to 1/3 of the highest
8. Now bring up the rear volume at the 4-ch amp gradually till it just interferes with the front, and then reduce slightly
9. Then, increase the volume at the 2-ch amp till you can just feel the sub sound in the front. Double check by reducing till the sub feeling goes away and increase back to the "just feeling" level
10. If you are THUMP-happy, increase the volume at the 2-ch by a couple of notches. If you now increase the volume at the HU, the THUMP will be more pronounced, but not out of proportion with the music

Double check the tuning with a couple of different CDs (vocals, instrumentals, drum & bass, ... whatever is your fancy) till you don't have the tinkering urge anymore.

Maybe the gurus can suggest a better LPF/HPF frequency?

Enjoy!

[jCube]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

You don't have much choice there, so go for the simplest:

7. Set the front volume at the 4-ch amp to a comfortable listening level, with the HU volume set to 1/3 of the highest
8. Now bring up the rear volume at the 4-ch amp gradually till it just interferes with the front, and then reduce slightly
9. Then, increase the volume at the 2-ch amp till you can just feel the sub sound in the front. Double check by reducing till the sub feeling goes away and increase back to the "just feeling" level

Some statments you made are confusing. Can you elaborate what you meant? Did you mean the gains?

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by jCube

Some statments you made are confusing. Can you elaborate what you meant? Did you mean the gains?

Egjhackly, j^3 Sir!

[RAC]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

You don't have much choice there, so go for the simplest:

1. Connect the Front and Rear Preamp-OUTs to the 4channel amp and the Sub-OUT to the 2-channel
2. Bridge the 2-channel amp and connect the Pio sub to it
3. Connect the front compos and the rear coaxes to the 4-channel amp
4. Set all tone controls to flat at the HU, Fader to 0. Play your favorite CD
5. Set the LPF at the sub amp to 80Hz, and for the time being keep the volume to the lowest at the 2-ch amp
6. Set the HPFs at the 4ch amp to 80Hz
7. Set the front volume at the 4-ch amp to a comfortable listening level, with the HU volume set to 1/3 of the highest
8. Now bring up the rear volume at the 4-ch amp gradually till it just interferes with the front, and then reduce slightly
9. Then, increase the volume at the 2-ch amp till you can just feel the sub sound in the front. Double check by reducing till the sub feeling goes away and increase back to the "just feeling" level
10. If you are THUMP-happy, increase the volume at the 2-ch by a couple of notches. If you now increase the volume at the HU, the THUMP will be more pronounced, but not out of proportion with the music

Double check the tuning with a couple of different CDs (vocals, instrumentals, drum & bass, ... whatever is your fancy) till you don't have the tinkering urge anymore.

Maybe the gurus can suggest a better LPF/HPF frequency?

Enjoy!

Hi. Can you please explain point no.2 on what it means and how is it done.

[rider60]

as of now the connections give by the car decors guy are front components powered by the 4-channel amp,
the sub powered by the 4 channel amp

and the rear co-axials are connected to the 2channel amp!

the preamps-outs are connected accordingly

will this be okay, or will this harm the spearkers or sub or the amp or the hu in any way?

i asked the car decor guy to bridge the 2channel amp, the guy says that the loud thump will be lost if bridged, i too need to know to bridge the 2-channel before i do so!

okay will connect the things as told by you deralte asap! if thats the best configuration!

[jCube]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Egjhackly, j^3 Sir!

Well, the gains setting feature provided in amps is a way of matching your HUs pre amp voltage to the input voltage of the amp. Different HUs have different pre amp voltages; commonly seen voltages range betwen 2V to 6V. The gains feature allows you to specify this. In other words, it helps you to get the most out of your amp with least distortion, if used correctly.

Using your gain as a volume control is the surest way to damage your equipment.

Originally Posted by rider60

as of now the connections give by the car decors guy are front components powered by the 4-channel amp,
the sub powered by the 4 channel amp

and the rear co-axials are connected to the 2channel amp!

the preamps-outs are connected accordingly

will this be okay, or will this harm the spearkers or sub or the amp or the hu in any way?

i asked the car decor guy to bridge the 2channel amp, the guy says that the loud thump will be lost if bridged, i too need to know to bridge the 2-channel before i do so!

okay will connect the things as told by you deralte asap! if thats the best configuration!

The bridged output of your 2 ch amp is 130wrms, 10watts more than the bridged output of ch 3 and 4 of your 4ch amp. It wouldnt make much of a difference though, but driving your sub off the 2ch amp, as suggested earlier, is better.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by rider60

as of now the connections give by the car decors guy are front components powered by the 4-channel amp,
the sub powered by the 4 channel amp

and the rear co-axials are connected to the 2channel amp!

the preamps-outs are connected accordingly

will this be okay, or will this harm the spearkers or sub or the amp or the hu in any way?

i asked the car decor guy to bridge the 2channel amp, the guy says that the loud thump will be lost if bridged, i too need to know to bridge the 2-channel before i do so!

okay will connect the things as told by you deralte asap! if thats the best configuration!

Simple generic extension of what the installer would have seen with conventional expansions from (4-ch amp driving front and sub) to (4-ch amp driving front and sub + 2-ch amp to drive rears). He should read up the ICE-section and manuals.

* The link that you posted for the 2-ch amp says "Rated Output Power: 1 Ch x 130W at 4 ohm (0.1% THD)"
* The link for 4-ch amp says "Min. channel configuration at 4 ohm (W) / THD (%) 2x 50 + 1 x 120 / 0.1%"
* Not that there is a BIG difference in the 2, but still the bridged 2-ch is producing a teeny-weeny bit more than 2-ch bridged of the 4-ch. One wouldn't think that the thump will be less (I am sure he didn't read the amp specs)
* On the other hand, the 2-ch has ONLY an LPF, making it more suited for the sub. In other words, the 4-ch with its HPF would be more suited for driving the rear channels

No, the existing setup will not harm the speakers or amp in any way, but maybe you could consider the above.

@RAC: Q.v. Bridgeable Amplifiers for bridging

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by jCube

Well, the gains setting feature provided in amps is a way of matching your HUs pre amp voltage to the input voltage of the amp. Different HUs have different pre amp voltages; commonly seen voltages range betwen 2V to 6V. The gains feature allows you to specify this. In other words, it helps you to get the most out of your amp with least distortion, if used correctly.

Using your gain as a volume control is the surest way to damage your equipment.

Sorry sir, I am not much of a wordsmith, nor a good engineer, but there is a difference between "adjusting the volume with the gain control (tuning)" and "using a volume control to adjust the relative loudness of music generally". The "matching your HUs pre amp voltage to the input voltage of the amp" is the logical description of the physical process of tuning by one's ears.

The 2V or 6V is the max peak-to-peak voltage (before it distorts) given as a guidance by the HU designer, corresponding to 100% volume setting on HU. What you actually get at the Pre-out is a factor of the HU volume control. So, at 33% of the volume scale at the HU, you are likely to get 33% (on a logarithmic scale) of say, 2V, as peak-to-peak output.

And BTW, there is no "input voltage of the amp" - whatever the HU produces appears at the amp input, and if it is insufficient to produce adequate loudness at your ears, one changes the amp "gain" to "make it louder"!

The only thing that will be damaged by frequently adjusting the gain control - if one really desires to do so - is likely to be only the potentiometer attached to the knob, and not the rest of the equipment. Otherwise, one normally sets it and forgets it - the main control is the HU volume control.

[navin]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Maybe the gurus can suggest a better LPF/HPF frequency?

For most applications I prefer
HPF Front: 63Hz/12db or 50Hz/18db
HPF Rear: 80Hz/12db or 100Hz/12db
LPF Sub: 80Hz/12db or 63Hz/12db

Originally Posted by DerAlte

What you actually get at the Pre-out is a factor of the HU volume control. So, at 33% of the volume scale at the HU, you are likely to get 33% (on a logarithmic scale) of say, 2V, as peak-to-peak output.

most gain controls are linear and most volume controls are log. at least they were in the the "old days".

[rider60]

well deralte, i appreciate all the information, but right now atleast nor do i have the time nor the energy to read through all the pages of the link you provided, sorry for that.

what i do want to know is, do you want me to short the positive and positive and the negative and negative and connect the sub woofer to opposite +ve and -ve ends?

how exactly do i connect the wires, so as to bridge the 2-channel amplifier? and the are two +ves and two -ves in the sub too like i already told you its a DVC sub woofer, please illustrate the wire connections to be made for the sub and the amp bridging thank you in advance!

[DerAlte]

@rider60, we are in a bit of a bind here!

* Your sub is a 4 ohms DVC. If you parallel the coils (connect one of the sub + to the other +, and - to -), you will get effectively 2 ohms

* I couldn't find the manual for the XM-ZR602 anywhere on the net, nor of the TS-W307D4 subwoofer. If you have the manuals, please double-check what I have written below

* If one were to go by the manual for XM-554ZR and the XM-504Z, the Sony amps CANNOT take 2 ohms load in the bridged mode, because each channel would see 1 ohm effectively and THAT is a no-no in the Sony tech specs

* Your DVC sub is 400W nominal, which would mean it can take 200W per 4-ohms voice coil

* Since the max you can feed is 120 / 130W, your only recourse with this sub is to use one of the voice coils bridging the 2 channels

* For bridging the 2-channel amp, connect the + terminal of the sub (one of the coils) to the + of the left channel and - to the - of the right channel (please see http://download.css.ap.sony.com/cons...D%2b6Q%3d%3d#a Page 2 Connection Diagram 2)

Now, how it is currently connected is a mystery to me, since I have not seen the installation. In a lighter vein (with all due respect to the original installer), I wouldn't be surprised if the installer had connected one voice coil of the sub each to the left and right rear channels of the 4-ch amp!

Navin-ji, should @rider60 leave the other voice coil open or should he short it? Maybe the Pio sub will behave better with one coil shorted!

Come to think of it, @rider60, we should "let the sleeping dogs lie": let the installation be as it is - unless you really feel something is wrong. At least you will not be provoking Murphy's laws.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by navin

most gain controls are linear and most volume controls are log. at least they were in the the "old days".

Of course, and they will continue to be like that in the future too - unless evolution changes the characteristics of the human ear.

I was using the "log" law in the relationship between Pre-OUT signal and the Volume Control. Even if the VC is implemented in software, one uses log law as with pots of yore.

[rider60]

okay i understood how to bridge now i will post the pics of the new configurations asap, thanks a ton for all the info deralte.

[navin]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

* Your sub is a 4 ohms DVC. If you parallel the coils (connect one of the sub + to the other +, and - to -), you will get effectively 2 ohms
* Since the max you can feed is 120 / 130W, your only recourse with this sub is to use one of the voice coils bridging the 2 channels

I wouldn't be surprised if the installer had connected one voice coil of the sub each to the left and right rear channels of the 4-ch amp!

Navin-ji, should @rider60 leave the other voice coil open or should he short it? Maybe the Pio sub will behave better with one coil shorted!

Come to think of it, @rider60, we should "let the sleeping dogs lie": let the installation be as it is - unless you really feel something is wrong. At least you will not be provoking Murphy's laws.

neither of the amps rider has can drive a 2ohm load when bridged. one options is to use the 4 ch. amp for the sub and the 2 ch amp for the front components and let the Hu drive the rear. that is what I would do.

Der Alte, between leaving the spare coil open or short I'd go short. It should drop Qtc a bit and hence result in slightly less boomy bass.

Also it is not only Murphy's Law rider shouldbe worried about. ICE laws at TBHP are also known to have their influence. These laws have been listed here...
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gu...ing-forum.html (STATUTORY WARNING - 10 Risks to know before entering this forum!)