IllusionICEing The Estilo

[MillionSwords]

Please go ahead and take a lecture!
We are here to learn, and understand!

You carry on to explain about Sub woofers this session, we will try to understand how far we can!

Great going bhagwan sir!

MS

Originally Posted by BHAGWAN

My Apologies;

I will make it simple :-

Cycles = Hertz

If you want to say 20 Hzs then we can also say 20 cycles
Hzs = Frequency.
This could be of any transducer. Woofer / Mid Woofer / Tweeter etc.

dB = SPL Level or Sensitivity
Generally the SPL [sound pressure level] is measured in dB [LBM will explain this well]
Also the sensitivity of a transducer [driver] is stated in dB

There may be many many more technical terms that can be used for woofers & their enclosures. I will not get into that at this time. I may get you irratated & I do not want to do that.

If there is any thing else I can help you with, please do feel free to ask. I would love to be of help !!

[BHAGWAN]

Originally Posted by MillionSwords

Please go ahead and take a lecture!
We are here to learn, and understand!

You carry on to explain about Sub woofers this session, we will try to understand how far we can!

Great going bhagwan sir!

MS

Dear MS,

I cannot write here.
The thread will get hijacked & I do not want to get into the 'bad books' of the Moderator.

We need to start a new thread & then Autophile + Gunbir + LBM & B & T can explain all the technical things. Navin too is very knowlegable in this regard; I am sure all the 'Guru's will oblige.

[navin]

Originally Posted by BHAGWAN

There may be many many more technical terms that can be used for woofers & their enclosures. I will not get into that at this time. I may get you irratated & I do not want to do that.

I agree. Now Million or Clipto this is not directed at you but based on the past. When theory is disussed here the definition of terms is often misunderstood/incorrectly used/not worded well enough etc. This leads to un-nesscary flame wars. I am usually a peaceful/tolerant mod (atleast I like to think I am) but when these wars break out I have to moderate that detracts from me enjoying this forum.

If one want to learn about the basics of speakers try and get your hands on David Weems's and Vance Dickanson's books on the subject. Some 20+ years go a well meaning friend sent me copies of both which I promptly misplaced (without reading - yeah I am such a retard). Other sources are back issues of Voice coil and Speaker Builder. and AES papers penned by Henry Olson, Edgar Vilchur, Paul Klipsch Sr., Roy Allison, etc.

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by MillionSwords

I saw a Sub Woofer with Pankaj Bhai @ FMDrive.
He said it was from Thaiwan/Bangkok. I did not listen to it, it was a 6" Cone compact and nice. What is all your thoughts about a 6" Sub Woofer?

I've seen that driver. It is a 6" sub bass driver, die cast basket, about 6" mounting depth with what appeared to be extremely high throw.

All said and done, the 6" sub has only 25% cone area of a 12" and cannot be expected to go as loud or low. This particular 6" I have not heard in action, and hence cannot comment.

[MillionSwords]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

I've seen that driver. It is a 6" sub bass driver, die cast basket, about 6" mounting depth with what appeared to be extremely high throw.

All said and done, the 6" sub has only 25% cone area of a 12" and cannot be expected to go as loud or low. This particular 6" I have not heard in action, and hence cannot comment.

- Poor me, I did not have the time to listen to those Subs, and Ajay Bhai has not even!

i wonder if some one has seen and listened to those Drivers? Please Ajay bhai, take some time to listen to them on our behalf when you next meet pankaj Bhai.!!

Thanks Navinji for the books and suggestions! I agree we do not want any more heated conversations in our forum, let it all go peacefully and happy!

[navin]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

All said and done, the 6" sub has only 25% cone area of a 12"

also building a 6" woofer that has the same excursion as a 12" is going to have it's own compromises (think, big, heavy, and expensive). About the only advantage will be the woofer's diameter (and hence mounting options).

[MillionSwords]

Originally Posted by navin

also building a 6" woofer that has the same excursion as a 12" is going to have it's own compromises (think, big, heavy, and expensive). About the only advantage will be the woofer's diameter (and hence mounting options).

Would the GZ Sub do the needful for my idea of Illusion Comps in the Front and Subs on the rear?

Please explain how to calculate the measurements for a sealed enclosure for a particular Sub?

[BHAGWAN]

Originally Posted by MillionSwords

Please explain how to calculate the measurements for a sealed enclosure for a particular Sub?

These details are mentioned on the web site of the manufacturer - ID or GZ or any other.

The will specify for Sealed or Ported or Band Pass [in some cases] etc.

[BHAGWAN]

Originally Posted by navin

also building a 6" woofer that has the same excursion as a 12" is going to have it's own compromises (think, big, heavy, and expensive). About the only advantage will be the woofer's diameter (and hence mounting options).

A 6" woofer will not have a low FS. The F3 is not below 35 Hzs -3dB. This is for the Focal BE Sub.
The Focal woofer I am talking about is small, not heavy yes it is very very expensive - 100 K Rs. ++ I think.

The biggest advantage of this woofer - if any - is the enclosure volume. It needs a 5 to 7 litre box [sealed] to work in. That is really brilliant.

Navin, I am sure you understand drivers and their specs way better than me - being a DIYer - please do correct me if I am wrong;
Thanks.

p.s. A 6" woofer can never have the same excursion as a 12" woofer. Well it can, but its VC will have to be 4" + & shall have to have some insane Neo or Alnico magnet with a 'mad' tesla rating. B & T please do shed some light on this.

Sorry again for getting a bit technical. LBM - Sir, please do post some google results to substantiate my statements. If I am wrong, then too please state & put links up.

Appreciate it !!

[navin]

Originally Posted by BHAGWAN

A 6" woofer will not have a low FS. The F3 is not below 35 Hzs -3dB.

The biggest advantage of this woofer - if any - is the enclosure volume. It needs a 5 to 7 litre box [sealed] to work in.

Navin, I am sure you understand drivers and their specs way better than me

p.s. A 6" woofer can never have the same excursion as a 12" woofer. Well it can, but its VC will have to be 4" + & shall have to have some insane Neo or Alnico magnet with a 'mad' tesla rating.

One can build a 6" woofer with a Fs of about 20-22Hz. We can even keep Mms down below 20gms (without the "mad tesla motor") but yes the F3 will be limited to about 35Hz (in this case). see http://www.tymphany.com/files/produc...8W_8546-00.pdf

I have used both this driver as well as it's brothers and cousins. :-) but that was in the mid 90s when I subscribed to the "scandinavian school of speaker design".

Actually if one really wanted a small woofer that worked well in 5-8 liters I'd suggest the Jordan JX92. Killer off axis respnse and one can make do with almost any XO even electrical 1st order. Some alternates are the Seas 15cm Excel series, Veravox 5x, Speravox 135LB, and the new Fostex 138ES or exotics from Skanning, ATD, etc..

[Bass&Trouble]

Originally Posted by BHAGWAN

p.s. A 6" woofer can never have the same excursion as a 12" woofer. Well it can, but its VC will have to be 4" + & shall have to have some insane Neo or Alnico magnet with a 'mad' tesla rating. B & T please do shed some light on this.

Before all that, just think of the surround width required for 12"-like excursion. Based on that, what the effective remaining cone area will be.

Originally Posted by BHAGWAN

LBM - Sir, please do post some google results to substantiate my statements.

[MillionSwords]

Originally Posted by navin

Actually if one really wanted a small woofer that worked well in 5-8 liters I'd suggest the Jordan JX92. Killer off axis respnse and one can make do with almost any XO even electrical 1st order. Some alternates are the Seas 15cm Excel series, Veravox 5x, Speravox 135LB, and the new Fostex 138ES or exotics from Skanning, ATD, etc..

Well can some one tell me how much these would cost?

Jordan JX92 = ?
Seas 15cm Excel Series = ?
Veravox = Rs.?
Speravox 135LB =?
Fostex 138ES =?
Skanning =?
ATD = ?

Some one please list the price and availability in India?

[navin]

Originally Posted by MillionSwords

Well can some one tell me how much these would cost?
Some one please list the price and availability in India?

MS,

I dont think these drivers are available in India. Even in Europe these drivers are rare and available only to a select few fanatics who know where to look.

My post was directed at Bhagwan, who is one such fanatic and has the resources to obtain these drivers.

Of that lot the Jordan is the cheapest (about Euro 150 each). I also misspelt one driver it is Supravox not Speravox. The Veravox and Supravox are not suitable for the car enviroment.

[MillionSwords]

Originally Posted by navin

MS,

I dont think these drivers are available in India. Even in Europe these drivers are rare and available only to a select few fanatics who know where to look.

My post was directed at Bhagwan, who is one such fanatic and has the resources to obtain these drivers.

Of that lot the Jordan is the cheapest (about Euro 150 each). I also misspelt one driver it is Supravox not Speravox. The Veravox and Supravox are not suitable for the car enviroment.

Thank you Navin Sir, for the clarification.
Err those seem way too ahead of my budget!

I was told about another 8"Driver from JL Audio, and I found those are discontinued models - JL Audio, Subwoofer - 8W3 - any comments about these? - These are available in Chennai I heard.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by MillionSwords

... I was told about another 8"Driver from JL Audio, and I found those are discontinued models - JL Audio, Subwoofer - 8W3 - any comments about these? - These are available in Chennai I heard.

An 8" would necessarily have to be located somewhere in the front seat area (under seat, or kick panel, or between dash and gear lever) for you to discern the lows. Even then, it is unlikely you will be able to hear the bottom-most octave.

Even Illusion has 8" subs in its line-up, but no idea about availability (PM @bass&trouble to find out). You could also think of a 10" from the known brands under the front seat in a small ported or sealed box.