Stealth with good SQ Possible on a 70K (excluding HU) budget?

[vipul_singh]

Hello!

I wish to improve the audio system in my 2002 Palio GTX. Here are some of the “pro-forma” details:

1. Car: 2002 Palio GTX
2. Current setup: Alpine 9885 HU, 2 x Blaupunkt 5.25” Coax front, 2 x Sony Xplod 4” Coax Rear. Factory wiring. Amaron Pro battery (4 years old).
3. Budget: Rs. 70000 – Rs. 80000 (excl HU since I already have that)
4. Do you drive most of the time or is it chauffer driven? I always drive the car myself
5. Your Music preferences (Genres, favorite artists, etc.):
a. Lounge: Enigma
b. Classical: Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart
c. Rock: Metallica, Rammstein, Pantera, Megadeth, Radiohead
d. Jazz: Dean Martin, Sinatra, Judy Garland, Dinah Washington
e. Blues: BB King, Taj Mahal
f. Pop / Pop rock / Art Rock: Fleetwood Mac, Supertramp, ELO
g. Pink Floyd
h. Classic Rock: The Who, The Guess Who, The Moody Blues

…and many many more.

System Requirements:

1.Stealth: My car is completely stock and I have maintained it in as close to original condition as a 6-year old daily driver can be. Therefore I want the equipment to be hidden as well as possible. Therefore all speakers (including tweeters) must be installed in the factory locations. Amps should be located under the passenger seat. Wiring should be well hidden.
2.Sound Quality: People tell me I have a really discerning ear. So, for instance, I would be able to distinguish between a system that sounds “loud, clear, and distortion-free” and one that conveys emotion. That is why I would ideally like to go for good quality components.
3.Install Quality: System installation should not impact the vehicle’s reliability. I might need to take the car on a 3000 km trip on a short notice.
4.Practicality: If any amps are going to be installed in the boot, intrusion into boot-space should be minimal. If needed, the Sub should be easily removable, and the system should then be able to run the speakers in full-range mode.


Question:
1. Stealth and sound quality are mutually conflicting requirements, can both of these requirements be met in a budget of Rs. 70-80K (excl HU)? If so, what components should I look at? Would good quality components would be able to sufficiently offset the problems of imaging, integration etc., or would sticking to lower end hardware be more prudent?
2. Can I meet my practicality related requirements?

Would appreciate any and all help I get. Thanks!

[low_bass_makker]

I would suggest you a Front components and Sub in the boot combo. It will give you a very balance of sound. No rear fills is required if you are self driven person. And a good 4 channel amp to drive the sub and the components.

[gunbir]

Its good you have a healthy budget, and clarity of your requirement. Since you know what you want, try and audition as many setups as you can. Thats the best way to decide.

Best of luck!

[speedzak]

A very well written ICE query. Budget, listening preferences, etc.. mentioned very clearly.
The results you are looking from the install is also mentioned clearly. Even the required method of install is explained. Well done!

Now, my questions are;
Will you sacrifice a bit for the tweeters part in the install?
As far as I remember, there's no stock location for tweeters in the Palio. So, you'll have to either put it on the doors or in the A pillars or at the kickpanels (Which I'm not very fond of as it takes the imaging a bit lower if not done very correctly).

What about a Subwoofer? Are you ready to add it as part of your install? Or you want your components to handle the lows too?

Are you fond of any special brands?

[vipul_singh]

Thanks Gunbir and L_B_M for your replies.

I have some specific questions regarding the equipment and its placement. I would need to ask them one-by-one, since I have a lot of queries.

Front Compos: I would like to install the front compos in the stock locations. However, if you look at the picture below, the grille of the tweeter pod is very much offset from the listener. I think this would hurt imaging and integration (please confirm). Assuming that it does, how much should I spend on components:

Rs. 5000-6000 -- (example) JBL CS series
Rs. Rs 12000-Rs. 15000 -- Rainbows? IA Carbons? IDs?

I am not talking specific brands here. The point is that if the integration is going to suffer because of speaker placement, is it worth spending large sums of money on front components at all?

[vipul_singh]

Originally Posted by speedzak

A very well written ICE query. Budget, listening preferences, etc.. mentioned very clearly.
The results you are looking from the install is also mentioned clearly. Even the required method of install is explained. Well done!

Now, my questions are;
Will you sacrifice a bit for the tweeters part in the install?
As far as I remember, there's no stock location for tweeters in the Palio. So, you'll have to either put it on the doors or in the A pillars or at the kickpanels (Which I'm not very fond of as it takes the imaging a bit lower if not done very correctly).

What about a Subwoofer? Are you ready to add it as part of your install? Or you want your components to handle the lows too?

Are you fond of any special brands?

@speedzak: Apparantly the Palio does come with tweeter locations (please see my previous post). But yes, I would like to add a subwoofer. The setup would need to be such that I can remove the sub in case I need to pack in luggage. For this duration, the components would need to handle the full range.

Brands: no special preference. I understand there are a lot of good ones available (Rainbow, IA, ID, JBL etc. to mention the mid-priced ones).

[zucchero]

vipul,i find sail panel the best locations for the tweets.a-pillar somehow reduces the sound stage and seperation.i would never recomend for a-pillars. put the tweets in the stock location.

[Bass&Trouble]

I dont think you can put a 6.5" in the front location without trashing the factory grill. Also, in order for the stock grill to fit in its place, you cant use a deep spacer. So you will need a relatively shallow 5.25" speaker.

The Palio has stock tweeter locations, but I dont know why they designed them to face the windshield and not towards the seats or just straight towards each other. Plus, the stock tweeter location causes a honkiness in the upper midrange region.

I suggest you audition a few setups to decide on the equipment. Skip the rear fill, or go for good entry level coaxes at best so that you can allocate the most to everything else.

[ramie2400]

You can install a 6.5"inch compos,ive installed the GZ entry level with a 3/8" MDF rings in a friends palio stile 1.1,the things you need to chop off is the metal on the door and little bit of the inside plastic supports of the speaker/newspaper cover.it requires a bit patience and you need to check if the window glass dosent hit the magnet.

[vipul_singh]

Thanks B&T and Zucchero.

I knew that going for a 6.5" midrange in the stock location would be a bit of trouble. Can anyone please confirm if 6.5" drivers fit into stock locations in the Palio? If so, which ones? I know ID 6.5s would not fit (hellspawn's thread).

Also, please refer to the image below. When the door is closed, the arrow indicates where the tweeters would point. Is this direction good or bad from a soundstage, imaging and integration point of view?

EDIT: @ramie2400 just saw your post. Just need to know if any of the higher end stuff can also be made to fit since I assume it would need more install depth. How were the GZs in terms of install depth? And how tight was the fit?

[ramie2400]

Depth wise GZ is shallow so it got installed perfectly putting out good sounds and bass,I haven't done any damping as i dont think it was required as there was no jaaring sound at all,even at high volumes.

In hi-end compo's you may look forward for the IA carbon components,they sound awesome and also they are shallow mount,the only thing is see to it how skilled is your installer and get the thinnest MDF rings,a 6mm would easily do it

[vipul_singh]

Great! So I now know at least one probable high end component which might fit the stock location. Gurus: are there any others?

But more importantly, I am still trying to figure out whether high end compos are worth it at all, given the direction and placement of the stock tweeter location (post #10).

B&T ji: By 'honkiness' do you mean a hollow sound? Can this be fixed by adding some filler material?

[ramie2400]

There is only one drawback i see installing hi-end components in the door i.e. water entering the door,during monsoons or washing,since you have used the car for 6yrs,the door biddings and the sealants used might have gone loose,please consider this in mind before installations

[hydrashok]

You're very clear in what you want and what you don't. And a good budget. Great way to start!

The Palio is a very nice car to ICE. You won't need to spend a bomb on damping.

I'd also suggest a Front + Sub setup. Best possible allocation of budget IMHO:

6.5" Front Comps: 12-15K
12" Sub in sealed box: 15-18K
Amp (4-ch): 35-40K
Wiring (RCAs + Speaker cables + Power cables): 5-6K
Damping: 5-6K.

I'm sure you will be able to get everything (incl. install) after discounts within 80K here.

Since you're in the NCR region, I don't think you'll have any difficulty auditioning quite a few good setups there.

About the front comps, I think you should go for 6/6.5" comps itself. 5.25" comps will not really give enough up-front bass. They will sound good, but a 6/6.5" midbass driver will sound better.

The Palio's stock tweeter position is a joke. But the Sail panel is good for tweeter-mounting.Maybe you can get an installer to FG a tweeter-pod into the sail panel. A pair of panels cost Rs.125/- (used to, 'cause I broke them twice when I drove a Palio), so you can just swap them with a stock pair when you're selling the car (if that's why you want to keep the car stock).

All the best with a great install!

[speedzak]

Ok. So, the tweeter is not going to be a big problem. Good!
In the hands of a good installer, a 6.5" midbass will fit in the front doors without much of a problem if the magnet isn't gigantic.

The suggestion by Hydra is good. Split out your budget in a similar way and rock on!
I'd also suggest you to get a 2 amp setup if you don't want to spend close to 40k on a single amp. This will give more versatility to the system. You'd be able to put it to good use comfortably in your next car no matter how big/what make/model it is.