Boxed speakers: good or bad - Team-BHP

greenh0rn · 16th May 2005, 14:30

Ok I am posting this as a separate, new post:

Yesterday i went for sound system (pioneer 4750, 6991 rear and sony 1021 in fronts) for my santro xing. The dealer recommeneded a box, so I went with one huge box for rear. Now the thing is box has taken up all of boot-space, and Santro's rear parcel tray sits on top of the box. My questions are:

1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions?

2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF?

3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers?

Cheers!

Jaggu · 16th May 2005, 15:57

not an expert but will give a try at replying..

1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions?

if its a full range speaker it will

2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF?

MDF boards are a kind of alternative to plywood and which is easy to machine..

3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers?

easiest solution is to move the fader setting to rear

greenh0rn · 16th May 2005, 17:29

thanks jaggu. I'll make some amends like remove the tray and then see... I've set fader to +2 for rear. I'll see then revert.

In the meantime, what do all of you have to say about rear speakers going boxed vis-a-vis MDF tray/stock grilles?

c10 · 16th May 2005, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenh0rn

Ok I am posting this as a separate, new post:

Yesterday i went for sound system (pioneer 4750, 6991 rear and sony 1021 in fronts) for my santro xing. The dealer recommeneded a box, so I went with one huge box for rear. Now the thing is box has taken up all of boot-space, and Santro's rear parcel tray sits on top of the box. My questions are:

1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions?

2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF?

3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers?

Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVO6

Car Audio is my passion and have been experimenting on a lot of audio installations in my own car ...
But thats about me for now ...
I hope to meet some real cool pals here and help in exchanging knowledge and experience as Learning is an ever going process ...

Hi greenh0rn, may be EVO6 can be of some help for you...

c10

Jaggu · 16th May 2005, 18:43

chip board or particle boards are best for enclosures as far as i know, and yes enclosure (properly designed one) defenitely gives you better base compared to an open tray

amitverma · 16th May 2005, 19:07

2. u have done the right thing by going for the box. tray mounts cant give good bass.

3. make sure the 6991s r originals. if they are those are a damn good pair...

try fiddling around with the EQs, lowering the bass a lil, incr. the mids...u should get a neat custom setting.

viper · 16th May 2005, 22:22

Hey Greenhorn,

answers as below:
1>Box is the best option but you need 2 seperate boxes preferably of MDF(bhusaply) instead of one big box which will leave you with enough space for a decent suitcase as the boxes will fit on either side. Please remove the parcel tray as it will muffle th e overall sound.

2> Answered in above point.

3>there are 2 reasons for the distortion. Firstly the front speakers 4" are not capable of handling the power hence you are overdriving them. you could either go in for better speakers or put the fader @60% rear and 40% front which should lessen the problem but not cure it. Secondly I am assuming that vol35 is your max volume. Your deck circuit is functioning at max capacity and there is bound to be distortion all around. If you put a small amplifier the problem will disappear.

Hope this info is of use to you.
Viper

z klasse · 16th May 2005, 23:34

Ofcourse you have to remove the parcel tray which sits on top of the speakers. Common that common sense. YOu have to tune ur amp to suit the car. you have to wait for a while before you blast speakers cause they are new and will get bad fast if you start blarring it when new. The cone has to get a little old. Older speakers are always better than newer ones. Same goes for woofer too.

You have to have the frequency for the woofer set so that all below 80hz comes from woofer. You have to have lpf on for the woofer. YOu have tuen the speaker frequencies.. Its alot to do and in the end u get the music quality you want.. You have to keep trying different settings till u you get ur own taste.

z

dragger · 17th May 2005, 07:46

hey buddy since its a santro i would advise you to just go in for an MDF tray...the MDF tray is nothing else but a wooden tray which is thicker n stronger than the tray that the company has to offer...well about your speakers blaring well as viper said its a simple case of over driving your system...you definately need an amp...because your listening to music at volumes like 35..your pushing the head to deliver something which it isnt capable of...so obviously the distortion...also fading i would advise is a temporary option...because if your installing a audio system in your car...spend a little more but dont compromise the quality..i mean fading means that you cant currently get the full potential out of the front speakers then what's the use and why have them?...so my advise would be atleast get a sony 222 or a 444 amp for the time being to support your system speakers and your entire sound output...also if possible use only monster RC cable's and monster speaker wiring and yea use a fuse as and where required it helps in the long run...that was my bit...if you do need any other info please do pm me...cheers...!!

greenh0rn · 17th May 2005, 11:26

Hey guys thanks for all the help...today i removed the tray and listened to pink floyd at volume 39 and it sounded awesome! Ok the max volume HU pumps at is 62!!!

By the way, I do not have woofers and amps currently...just pioneer 4750, pioneer 6991S, and Sony 1021. Now I am thinking of getting two separate boxes for rear speakers to make enough space. But believe me these 6991 produce soo much of awesome bass (thanks to the box) that i set the loudness to off, turn natural equalizer on, and there's still awesome thump!

Very nice effect indeed. Now only one last question: considering the limited capacity of sony 1021s, what are the best 4-inch speakers I can go for in front?

navin · 17th May 2005, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenh0rn

1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions?

2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF?

3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers?

1. sure the rear tray will interfere with the sound. try listening without the tray.

2. you are smart. if i had to do a santro i would do the following.
use nice rear speakers in those pods preferably components so that the tweeter is not hampered by the grilles you see and supplement those speakers with a active bass tube. then the tray would hide the bass tube and you would have the best of both worlds. also since bass requires a lof of energy the amp of the active bass tube would relieve your HU's amp.

given that you have alrady bought the 6x9s i would try putting them in 2 smaller boxes. this way they are a bit more manageable if you want to remove them.

3. the distortion could be one of 2 things. (1) the bass of your music is straining the suspension of the smaller front speakers (2) your HU cant deliver the power you are asking it to.

(1) get a seperate 4 channel amp with hipass filters. (2 channels will do if your budget is small). connect the HU to teh 4 channel amp and let the amp drive the speakers. then you have tune the hi pass filters to suit the capabilities of your speakers and demands of your music.

(2) get a seperate active sub (see above), let the sub manage the bass and let the 4 mian speakers manage the rest.

an added advantage of an active sub....

like was said before bass requires a lot of energy (read as watts).

however the ear is not very sensitive to distortions in the bass; atleast not as sensitive when compared to distortions in the midrange.

so if you get a subwoofer/bass tube etc.. and divert the bass to the bass tube or sub even if the bass amp overloads, the overloaded amp will not affect the mids. if one amp was managing the bass and mids, the amp (that overloaded due to the energy required by the bass) is now also going to adversly affect the mids.

greenh0rn · 17th May 2005, 12:45

Wow, that was some help info, Navin! Thanks much!

navin · 18th May 2005, 12:09

MDF is Medium Density Fiberboard. MDF is not as easy to machine as ply wood but.....

Plywood is made up of different layers of wood (plys) glueed together under pressure. Commercial ply wood use a lesser quality of glue and after a while the different layers of wood (plys) open up. this is even more so i the enviroment of the car. the wood in a car is subject to moisture, heat, changes of tempreture (aircon), etc...and hene commercial grade ply is not recomemded.

Marine grade ply uses better quality of glue and supposed to stand up to marine enviroments. However much of the marine grade ply in India is not really MARINE GRADE. I have used marine grade ply (you gotta know wood to do this confidently) and marine grade ply that has no blow holes etc... will make as good a box as any. I built a transmission line bass box in the trunk of my contessa in 1989 out of marine grade ply that survived till i sold the car in 1998. Remember this is in Mumbai where heat and humidity are high.

MDF when machined gives of a lot of dust esp if you use power tools (like the table saw).

16th May 2005, 14:30	#1 (permalink)
greenh0rn BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 42	Boxed speakers: good or bad Ok I am posting this as a separate, new post: Yesterday i went for sound system (pioneer 4750, 6991 rear and sony 1021 in fronts) for my santro xing. The dealer recommeneded a box, so I went with one huge box for rear. Now the thing is box has taken up all of boot-space, and Santro's rear parcel tray sits on top of the box. My questions are: 1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions? 2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF? 3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers? Cheers!

16th May 2005, 15:57	#2 (permalink)
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 4,199	not an expert but will give a try at replying.. 1. Will rear tray sitting on top of box muffle/suppress the sound a bit? I feel it does a little, but what are your suggestions? if its a full range speaker it will 2. Should I have gone for a box in first place? I mean, Santro gives slots (grilles) for speakers at back. Otherwise, could I have gone for a different tray (original tray won't handle weight of speakers). What exactly is MDF? MDF boards are a kind of alternative to plywood and which is easy to machine.. 3. At volume 35 with loudness set to Mid and natural equalizer, Nirvana songs have distorted sound. After a while, I located the distortion coming from front speakers. Now, is it usual or there's something wrong with speakers? easiest solution is to move the fader setting to rear __________________ The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference. -Calvin

16th May 2005, 18:43	#5 (permalink)
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 4,199	chip board or particle boards are best for enclosures as far as i know, and yes enclosure (properly designed one) defenitely gives you better base compared to an open tray __________________ The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference. -Calvin

17th May 2005, 07:46	#9 (permalink)
dragger BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: India-Mumbai-Colaba Posts: 294	hey buddy since its a santro i would advise you to just go in for an MDF tray...the MDF tray is nothing else but a wooden tray which is thicker n stronger than the tray that the company has to offer...well about your speakers blaring well as viper said its a simple case of over driving your system...you definately need an amp...because your listening to music at volumes like 35..your pushing the head to deliver something which it isnt capable of...so obviously the distortion...also fading i would advise is a temporary option...because if your installing a audio system in your car...spend a little more but dont compromise the quality..i mean fading means that you cant currently get the full potential out of the front speakers then what's the use and why have them?...so my advise would be atleast get a sony 222 or a 444 amp for the time being to support your system speakers and your entire sound output...also if possible use only monster RC cable's and monster speaker wiring and yea use a fuse as and where required it helps in the long run...that was my bit...if you do need any other info please do pm me...cheers...!! __________________ oVaBoosT - Performance Unleashed...!! Last edited by dragger : 17th May 2005 at 07:48. Reason: Spell Check

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16th May 2005, 17:29	#3 (permalink)
greenh0rn BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 42	thanks jaggu. I'll make some amends like remove the tray and then see... I've set fader to +2 for rear. I'll see then revert. In the meantime, what do all of you have to say about rear speakers going boxed vis-a-vis MDF tray/stock grilles?

16th May 2005, 19:07	#6 (permalink)
amitverma BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Delhi Posts: 324	2. u have done the right thing by going for the box. tray mounts cant give good bass. 3. make sure the 6991s r originals. if they are those are a damn good pair... try fiddling around with the EQs, lowering the bass a lil, incr. the mids...u should get a neat custom setting.

16th May 2005, 22:22	#7 (permalink)
viper BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Back in Mumbai Posts: 2,078 View My Garage	Hey Greenhorn, answers as below: 1>Box is the best option but you need 2 seperate boxes preferably of MDF(bhusaply) instead of one big box which will leave you with enough space for a decent suitcase as the boxes will fit on either side. Please remove the parcel tray as it will muffle th e overall sound. 2> Answered in above point. 3>there are 2 reasons for the distortion. Firstly the front speakers 4" are not capable of handling the power hence you are overdriving them. you could either go in for better speakers or put the fader @60% rear and 40% front which should lessen the problem but not cure it. Secondly I am assuming that vol35 is your max volume. Your deck circuit is functioning at max capacity and there is bound to be distortion all around. If you put a small amplifier the problem will disappear. Hope this info is of use to you. Viper

16th May 2005, 23:34	#8 (permalink)
z klasse BHPian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 341 View My Garage	Ofcourse you have to remove the parcel tray which sits on top of the speakers. Common that common sense. YOu have to tune ur amp to suit the car. you have to wait for a while before you blast speakers cause they are new and will get bad fast if you start blarring it when new. The cone has to get a little old. Older speakers are always better than newer ones. Same goes for woofer too. You have to have the frequency for the woofer set so that all below 80hz comes from woofer. You have to have lpf on for the woofer. YOu have tuen the speaker frequencies.. Its alot to do and in the end u get the music quality you want.. You have to keep trying different settings till u you get ur own taste. z

17th May 2005, 11:26	#10 (permalink)
greenh0rn BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 42	Hey guys thanks for all the help...today i removed the tray and listened to pink floyd at volume 39 and it sounded awesome! Ok the max volume HU pumps at is 62!!! By the way, I do not have woofers and amps currently...just pioneer 4750, pioneer 6991S, and Sony 1021. Now I am thinking of getting two separate boxes for rear speakers to make enough space. But believe me these 6991 produce soo much of awesome bass (thanks to the box) that i set the loudness to off, turn natural equalizer on, and there's still awesome thump! Very nice effect indeed. Now only one last question: considering the limited capacity of sony 1021s, what are the best 4-inch speakers I can go for in front?

17th May 2005, 12:45	#12 (permalink)
greenh0rn BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 42	Wow, that was some help info, Navin! Thanks much!

18th May 2005, 12:09	#13 (permalink)
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: mumbai Posts: 12,576	MDF is Medium Density Fiberboard. MDF is not as easy to machine as ply wood but..... Plywood is made up of different layers of wood (plys) glueed together under pressure. Commercial ply wood use a lesser quality of glue and after a while the different layers of wood (plys) open up. this is even more so i the enviroment of the car. the wood in a car is subject to moisture, heat, changes of tempreture (aircon), etc...and hene commercial grade ply is not recomemded. Marine grade ply uses better quality of glue and supposed to stand up to marine enviroments. However much of the marine grade ply in India is not really MARINE GRADE. I have used marine grade ply (you gotta know wood to do this confidently) and marine grade ply that has no blow holes etc... will make as good a box as any. I built a transmission line bass box in the trunk of my contessa in 1989 out of marine grade ply that survived till i sold the car in 1998. Remember this is in Mumbai where heat and humidity are high. MDF when machined gives of a lot of dust esp if you use power tools (like the table saw).