Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Bolo Tara rara.

I have always wondered what this is. Is it a bhangra kind of a song that is quite famous in mumbai/delhi or what else is it ??

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

I have always wondered what this is. Is it a bhangra kind of a song that is quite famous in mumbai/delhi or what else is it ??

It is a Punjabi/Bhangra pop song, sung by Daler Mehndi. it is famous all over India. It was played ad nauseam, everywhere, till it even became funny.
I started saying it on TBHP as a joke, now it's caught on.

In the ICE section, it now signifies a "There you go mate, problem sorted" sort of meaning now.
I told you we were eccentric.

[Wimwian]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Wim, wim, wim. The fader should be slightly towards the front and the balance in the centre!! Do try that, it's generally the norm.

Bolo Tara rara.

I have a doubt here... when balance is in the centre (fader at 0), isn't the soundstage perfect for someone sitting on top of the gear lever (ouch!!)... as in, he's gettin to listen to music from both sides at equal volume. But when i'm in the driver's seat and the balance is in the centre, the right tweeter drowns out the left tweeter... so if i shift the balance slightly towards the left, my guess is the centre of the soundstage should move towards the right... The same should apply to the fader too-if i shift it towards the rear, the centre of the soundstage should move towards the front...

dunno whether the above makes any sense, just sounds intuitive to me

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by Wimwian

I have a doubt here... when balance is in the centre (fader at 0), isn't the soundstage perfect for someone sitting on top of the gear lever (ouch!!)... as in, he's gettin to listen to music from both sides at equal volume. But when i'm in the driver's seat and the balance is in the centre, the right tweeter drowns out the left tweeter... so if i shift the balance slightly towards the left, my guess is the centre of the soundstage should move towards the right... The same should apply to the fader too-if i shift it towards the rear, the centre of the soundstage should move towards the front...

dunno whether the above makes any sense, just sounds intuitive to me

It sounds nicer when the front is louder. Without getting technical, you'll have to trust me on this one.

OK... let me analyse your post.

If the fader shifts towards the rear, the rear speakers get louder. So the "centre of the soundstage" has shifted to the rear. Simple. Not to the front.
Similarly, if you shift the balance to the left, the centrestage has also shifted left. Not right.

I understand your point. But the rear and front do not have to be equal. The front is important for you, not the rear.

As far as the balance is concerned, what you're probably looking for is time alignment.
But like I said earlier, keeping the balance in the centre is the norm. Not the law. If YOU like it towards the left, go for it.

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

With the right R&D, perfect attention to detail, detailed schematics, external drawings, dimensions and specifications colours dyes paints, processes, materials specified, with tolerances (and many more things, of course),

This means a significant part of intellectual property or trade secrets are at risk. It is like mini training. And I believe Chinese are good at IP theft. One person told me that he witnessed an interview of a candidate in China. He was surprised towards the end to see that the chap had brought some information about a few critical things from his previous employer... and asked if it could be of any use. It seems it is an unofficial norm there!
I am (of course) not saying that it is any good or something to be inspired from or encouraged, but just stating my views, the way I know it.

Or for that matter, did you know that half the stuff well-marketed by Tata, Godrej, Nicholas-Piramal and many other reputable houses is not actually made by them? Pick up a bar of your favourite soap, or talc, or toothpaste or washing powder and read. Chances are they were made in a smaller factory in India, under the supervision of Godrej.

Yes, I did have some idea about it. Many time only brand names sell. Especially when competition is tough and many products are nearby in terms of quality, to the extent that an average mass customer would not notice the difference or would not bother about it. In such cases I buy some name that sounds heard of, may be through TV, even though those ads are invariably almost silly. No wonder ads for such things are many times centered around kids, because they know most of the people would have no problem buying whatever their kid feels like.

Would you say that all Apple products benefit from the "legacy" image? I am sure you wouldn't.

You are right, I won't call it legacy effect. I call it a big marketing success, much like Intel, Microsoft.

If China were capable of designing and producing the iPhone, they would have made it long before Apple and much cheaper too.

Agree, but I believe that they CAN do it as of now.

What you're paying for, is Steve Jobs' brains. Not a Chinese factories diligence in making it exactly to Apple specifications.

If I feel like somebody is offering me an ipod made to Apple's specifications but at half the price and at expense of Apple's logo, I wouldn't mind
Most of the people using cheapo cell phones or any other gadgets can't even imagine how sophisticated the technology they are using is. They only bother about how much is its cost, and how much will there monthly bill be. They don't pay for the inventors of electricity, ICs or radio waves.

It is not the first example, but the SECOND example of chinese factories that are wiping away the stigma of "Made in China" rapidly.

I have seen some examples in the first category as well. I have been using a solar water heater which has Chinese made ETCs (Evacuated Tube collectors) but everything is assembled locally in Bangalore and I am impressed with their performance/reliability. Another example- many years back one of my friend wanted to buy a cheapo cassette player, so we went to a place well known for Chinese items. He bought a "system" for Rs. 350/- relying on my gut feeling that it seemed to be well made. He was concerned about the most likely problem of cassette players- tape mechanism going kaput, especially for such a cheapo. But actually it served him for quite a long time without any problems. We used to call it .35K music system out of fun.

I seriously think that the "China" part is downplayed by companies due to obvious reason of bad reputation. I wouldn't be surprised if many have sold/still selling the stuff without even passing on the cost benefit to customers. Now that it is becoming more like an open secret, they are promoting this -designed or engineered in "where you would like it to be", but made in China with greatest supervision- philosophy.

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

What you are paying for is those few hundred people, that are designing the product, the software in the product, the hyper-brained engineers that are planning and testing this product, the research that goes into it and much more.

You are not paying for the few thousand that follow a strict regime (wrt manufacture) in a factory, that happens to be in China.

A few important things which constitute "much more"- first of all brand name, then all the expenditure on advertisement, marketing force/events/shows/parties, distribution and retailing margins (which unfairly scale according to the base cost, but it should scale as per size/weight just like shipping, if you ask me)

Right from finance to an HR department, handled directly by the Government themselves!!

Wow! Didn't know this. I see B&T's company getting shifted to PRC

Besides, I remember paying 30 grand for a really stupid Ericsson phone, 10 years ago, (When 30K was worth a LOT more than it is today, there were no call centres and the average educated kid earned 1500-3000 rupees) that you could only make calls on and use for self-defense by throwing it at your attacker.

I too had bought an Alcatel phone for 12 grands around the same time. It was the sleekest model available here then. It used to make many heads turn while making or receiving calls. It had a unique feature of storing 2 address books into phones own memory apart from SIM and had Li ion battery. Slowly people started calling it a big phone, then a cordless (landline) phone, then a hammer. Finally people couldn't resist laughing at it and I had to replace it out of SHAME

[razor4077]

Originally Posted by Wimwian

@Razor4077, how about another audition of the 607c... u may be a little surprised

Lookin forward to it dude!
I somehow knew that installer guy didn't really know his stuff! I wonder why some people think that:
"Max power gains" + "Max bass boost" + Max everything else = ideal setup

Anyway, good that you've got things working like you want them.

Update from my end: Went for the Illusion Audio EL 6.1 component speakers. Cost roughly the same as the 607c. Let's see how it sounds in my setup.

[Dhar's]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

This means a significant part of intellectual property or trade secrets are at risk. It is like mini training.

I seriously think that the "China" part is downplayed by companies due to obvious reason of bad reputation. I wouldn't be surprised if many have sold/still selling the stuff without even passing on the cost benefit to customers.

Im with Santosh on the above.

Intellectual property - Just look at the Motor bikes and cars, trucks, puckups which come out of China. An exact rip of Japanese models in many cases.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I differ slightly with ... wiping away the stigma of "Made in China" rapidly.

Hear, hear! Bravo, Sam, you rock!

That's exactly what China is all about. Of course, there must a few of the first kind who are innovative, quality conscious AND good product oriented - that is a fall-out to be expected in any economy. But, having a government with the right policies does help the people who are disciplined and hard-working. If discipline and hard word are missing (like most public sectors) no govt policy can do anything.

I don't think all is lost for India - the manufacturing industry does not even need Govt. support explicitly as in China (I don't think anyone in India would like regulated life in general, salaries in particular - that's one factor that keeps the costs down). We just need a rational "industry >> taxes >> economy >> better infrastructure >> better industry performance >> better economy >> better ..." upward spiral, not taxes for the sake of more taxes.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by Dhar's

Intellectual property - Just look at the Motor bikes and cars, trucks, puckups which come out of China. An exact rip of Japanese models in many cases.

History repeats itself! Forty years back it was the Japanese who were in exactly the same situation, and "Made in Japan" was a positive term only in India. Unfortunately "Intellectual Property" wasn't a phrase then, "Patents" were - but the best was tracking and booking violations would take months and years. Cars, bikes, tape recorders, household electric goods, ... ripped from US / European products. Today we are talking about C ripping J products, which gives J the same status as U / E.

No one expected innovative 'original' products to come out of Indian industry overnight. 'Contract manufacturing' serves as a base for economic growth, which catalyzes original design and innovation.

That's exactly what the software industry is about in India - "contract manufacturing", with few, if at all, world standard 'products'. Have we reached the launching pad? You bet we have. But where are the products?

Those in the manufacturing sector who have understood this funda are doing well: Sam gave examples, and there are plenty others in the automotive sector. "Contract manufacturing", though it sounds like "service", is actually about making products which are components for others. Do you think we have what it takes to make products?

So, anyone wants to set up shop to make edge-wound coils? Cones? Rubber surrounds?

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

History repeats itself! Forty years back it was the Japanese who were in exactly the same situation, and "Made in Japan" was a positive term only in India.

My Dad still talks about the time when every good product, from cars to cameras came only from Europe (and the US) and the word JAPANI was synonymous with cheap, plasticky and poor built things.

Example of usage: Talking to a child, who's bought a cheap plastic doll off the street (made locally) "Yeh kya japani item laaya hai, vaapas kar de"

This held true for many years, till the photo industy (Leica, Hasselblad, Rolleiflex and the ilk) were seriously set back by Canon and Nikon and the ilk.
After jeering and poking fun at Japanese cars (The word RICE CAR, was not designed to be a compliment) European and American car manufacturers had to shamefacedly accept that Toyota and Honda were here to stay.

Japan replaced it's cheap image, with an image of desirable quality. Today, even though it's few and far between, products made in Japan are synonymous with quality.

[rishab]

Originally Posted by clipto333

hi rishab, looks like im talking to myself lol. my name is rishabh.


congrats for your new car. im not guru here so double check my suggestions with them.

i dont know the price of the blau hamburg HU. ill just let you know about the speakers.

there are many good components from brands like jbl/hertz/alpine/blau. dont go for sony as they are not recommended here.

for fronts you can go for

jbl gto607 for 6k with bill or
hertz deici for 6k again with b/w.

or if you can spend more, i would suggest
hertz energy es165 for 9.1k or
infinity reference comps for around 8k(?)

for the rears i would suggest sticking to the same brand and series for best match. i would go for
hertz deici 6x9s or
jbl gto 6x9 for around 5.5k with b/w

or in the higher end i would buy
hertz energy or
infinity reference series 6x9s.
no idea of prices, can anyone confirm? sam, gunbir?

im not mentioning blau speakers as i dont know the model nos and price. i have heard blau comps and i really liked them.

rest i would say try and listen before you buy.

cheers
clip

Hi Rishabh,

Thanks alot for the response - after a few more days of reading this forum, researching the market and talking to a few more people i stand to be a little more confused than I was when I signed up here!!!

I think I am down to 4 choices and would really appreciate the Gurus to step in here and help me with this decision - needless to say one (I) dont buy a car all the time and definitely dont spend 25K on a system so the feedback is highly appreciated....

Choices

1) Blau Hamburg HU (15K) - Reason I like this is it has the inbuilt bluetooth feature as well has AUX out and USB (USB is not so important for me) - This HU with Blau Velocity components in the front and Blau GT in the back
Also the Blau HU has a 2yr theft warranty which is good in Mumbai

2) Alpine HU - not sure about model number - but around 10k for the HU
with Rockford Fosgate components (5.5K) in the front and Vibe 6x9's (8K) in the back? Alpine sound is supposed to be fab but no bluetooth which i think is a great feature coz i drive about 50k a day!

3) Blau Hamburg HU - with the rockford components in front (5.5K) and Vibe 6x9's in the back - I was suggested by one audio freak that Vibe and other similar Eu brands are fantastic compared to the likes of JBL, Blau etc

4) Blau Hamburg HU with the JBL combo that u suggested Rishabh for the front and the back?

Lastly is it truly worthless getting components in the front when you are not powering with an Amp - i dont plan on putting an AMP in my swift but thought the components would still do me a lot of good....

All my research is based on reading this forum and going to as many audio shops i have managed to visit during my time outside of work being completely new to this mad city of Mumbai!

Making my decision by middle of next week so would appreciate any GYAN before that...

Cheers and once again apologies for the tech handicap!

[navin]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I told you we were eccentric.

correction. YOU are eccenmtric. I am just plain MAD.

[Thad E Ginathom]

I have a feeling that it is always worthwhile bringing the tweeters closer to ear-level, as the higher the frequency the more we are aware of directionality (the reason, of course, why a sub-woofer can go almost anywhere in a room).

Getting those high frequencies closer to my ears is something important to me as my hearing chart takes a nasty dip at higher frequencies.

By the way... In my early childhood, made in Hong Kong used to be the real killer lable! So much so that, in an early example of spin, many manufacturers changed the lable to Empire Made --- but we still knew what it meant and avoided it if we could!

Japanese cars put the British car industry to shame! People came to realise that it was not inevitable that the car wouldn't start on cold/wet/etc days, or that it would rust away in three years. If you'd told a Brit car-company boss, in the 1950s, that you wanted a five year guarantee on the bodywork, he'd have died laughing. Pity that --- his business might have survived if he'd listened!

[abhibh]

A simple question to the GURU's. If someone is is getting a simple ICE setup like HU + 2 compos + 2 6x9 is it necessary to go for AMP wiring KIT or will the default wiring kit will do a good job ?

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by rishab

and talking to a few more people i stand to be a little more confused than I was when I signed up here!!!

I think I am down to 4 choices ...

Choices

1) Blau Hamburg HU (15K) - Reason I like this is it has the inbuilt bluetooth feature as well has AUX out and USB (USB is not so important for me) - This HU with Blau Velocity components in the front and Blau GT in the back
Also the Blau HU has a 2yr theft warranty which is good in Mumbai
...
3) Blau Hamburg HU - with the rockford components in front (5.5K) and Vibe 6x9's in the back - I was suggested by one audio freak that Vibe and other similar Eu brands are fantastic compared to the likes of JBL, Blau etc
...

Let's put a different spin on it - from your p-o-v:
1. A DEAL that you may get would perhaps be more tangible than the fame and standing of the brand, but to many A.S.S. matters
2. After Sales Service (A.S.S.) counts a lot - but is offset by the 'need' factor: if your apparent needs may only be satisfied by a set that cannot come with A.S.S., then you have to go that way
3. Most of the time a combo that gave you goosebumps when you heard it and didn't cause your BP to rise when you heard it's price, overrides any other logic
4. Feature needs are not absolute and can be satisfied by other solutions. Maybe you could do with a good Bluetooth headset for your phone needs, instead of looking for BT in the HU? Then you may have a larger choice of HU models, or maybe get a DVD HU for a comparable price

Hence the golden words: LISTEN BEFORE YOU BUY. Saying "A are fantastic compared to the likes of B" would not be right.

* If the features and price of Blau Hamburg satisfy your needs, any other HU would be comparable ONLY if it has the same features (and then some), price AND comes with A.S.S.
* Same goes for comparing Blau Velocity speakers (or for that matter any other established brand whose sound YOU have heard and liked) versus any other brand that may have apparent 'mystique' (created quite likely by the dealer who is normally not able to sell it but wants to dump it on you)

For you, if BT is an absolute must and a BT headset wont do, perhaps the Blau combo is the best (maybe you can get THx ovals at the back instead of GT series), unless you get a comparable deal with B&W and A.S.S.

And yes, components would sound better even without an Amp (which you can put in later if you want).