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Old 8th July 2011, 13:37   #16
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Lastly, Panky yeh "ji-Ji" kya hai? You know better. please reserve this term for the Gurus (Sam, B&T, Gunbir, LBM etc..).
Firstly, I'm no audio guru. Secondly, I don't want to be called Ji-ji. lol.

Poitive, a good effort and some humour in there too.

That said, I wouldn't take that article as gospel.

Please don't be offended, I am all in favour of the simplification and demystification of this esoteric subject - but you might as well have written an article on how to appreciate good food.

When it comes to matters of personal taste and objectives, even simple things like flat/natural sound may not be the objective of a person. If indeed a person wants to blow his eardrum to shreds, he has the freedom to do it with his own money and I encourage it.

That is the only bit I wanted to add there. And as someone else pointed out, this stuff has all been said before, often.

Thank you for the effort though.

Enjoy your music.

Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 8th July 2011 at 13:39.
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Old 8th July 2011, 14:30   #17
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

..good to see you back in this section oh Lord Yeti!! You ARE one of the few audio gurus here, but yes no Sam Ji-Ji, only Sam Bhai would suffice.

You've precisely summarize the entrire thing.. and thats exactly I wanted to convey.. to each its own! He's happy with Sony and I with JBL!
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Old 8th July 2011, 14:54   #18
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

Pls check the FACTS on 'what' I installed and am enjoying under spending under 7.5k for HU speakers

Panky had posted on that thread, IIRC.

More when I am back on the comp.
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Old 8th July 2011, 15:04   #19
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Pls check the FACTS on 'what' I installed and am enjoying under spending under 7.5k for HU speakers
Please dont get offended sir! I vaguely remember you see (getting old now). All I wanted to say is to each its own!

Glad that you are happy!
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Old 8th July 2011, 17:13   #20
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Pls check the FACTS on 'what' I installed and am enjoying under spending under 7.5k for HU speakers
Now that the topic has come up, what did you install? I dont even remember the thread. Sorry.

If Panky can lay claim to getting old, I should be looking for a burial plot.
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Old 8th July 2011, 17:57   #21
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Now that the topic has come up, what did you install? I dont even remember the thread. Sorry.

If Panky can lay claim to getting old, I should be looking for a burial plot.
The thread in question: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/ask-gurus/100211-cheap-ice-accent-7k-so-edit-ice-review-added.

Had "reviewed" the system on the same thread too.

What I installed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Decision made:
HU -Alpine - 100EUB
Speakers - 6" deep cone - The A Brand (will update the forum on the exact name later).
No special wiring it being used (don't think it is needed for this type of a setup) and fitting is not being charged extra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
To start with, the A brand mentioned above was Auditor. They were 180W speakers. Auditor is supposed to be a brand by Focal Audio for their cheaper line of products.

To keep things in perspective we need to remember that less than 7.5k (all inclusive) was spent.
Funnily, I didn't even remember the name of the speaker brand when I had sent the car for installation. Was pretty sure of what I had heard and that I had liked it, and the dealers integrity (that he would not install something else and send the car). Names 'Sony' or whatever were secondary.

(If we want to discuss more about my choice of system, that would be a more appropriate thread to do so. Also will be posting there to seek suggestions for the front speakers - this ain't meant to be a "What ICE" thread as per the OP).

We all do seem to agree on one thing - what the first post quite started with:
Quote:
We all have our quirks in how we like our ICE to sound. It is rather personal. To each his own.
Am glad that Sam pointed out that this article should not be taken as gospel. It was only intended to share my thoughts on the subject to convey ideas without too many technical details and well, in a humorous manner to make for enjoyable reading. Want to share more on what the intention of the thread was (seems it will soon end as a was!). The only gospel-like stuff was the part in bold above and that one should trust one's ears, which I am happy we seem to agree on.

@Panky, Wasn't offended. Was surely wondering what was happening about what seemed like probably "branding" me and probably "Sony". Btw, as Navin too mentioned, Sony does have some respectable stuff in the the budget range. Also concerned about where the discussion was headed. Would be nice to see more knowledgeable people like you add further to this very basic stuff I had gotten the ball rolling with. It may help others who are less tuned in (pun intended)

Now back to work. Hope to be back soon.

PS: Carthom and Navin: Want to reply to you with a freer mind, hence the delay.
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Old 8th July 2011, 21:33   #22
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

@Poitive,

You know about my Caska in the ANHC. jkoo7 wanted me to find out if Caska would play video clips from pendrive through USB. I tried and was pleasantly surprised that it not only played videos but the audio was very crisp(I tried a music video)! Pl note the video clips were low resolution mp4 files.

The HU and OE speakers had very good low and mid range out puts and the bass came a bit vague even though reasonable.A sub woofer will make it much better-but still the audio was really good! The bass too is quite ok but could be better.

Please evaluate these snaps.

How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?-dsc00498.jpg

How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?-dsc00501.jpg

How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?-dsc00516.jpg


A complicated HU makes a single point solution for many requirements-and it keeps your dash tidy. But if it delivers the music you like,hand in hand with the speakers,it is a blessing. Caska seems to be alright for my taste.

Best rgds,charthom.
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Old 9th July 2011, 09:36   #23
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Funnily, I didn't even remember the name of the speaker brand when I had sent the car for installation.
I too try not to look at the brand or price lest I prejudice my sub-concious. Unfortunately this is not always possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charthom View Post
You know about my Caska in the ANHC.
Does this unit have Time Alignment? I hate to have the bass coming from the trunk and the rest of the music coming from the front. Anyway lets not hijack Poitive's thread.
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Old 9th July 2011, 15:51   #24
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

OP, Navin, DerAlte, please do not be offended, but I hate to say this. WHAT is the point of this thread?
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Old 9th July 2011, 16:40   #25
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
OP, Navin, DerAlte, please do not be offended, but I hate to say this. WHAT is the point of this thread?
More tell me why.. A guide for the absolute noobies as to what to expect in ICE forum and then use your own ears to decide!..
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Old 9th July 2011, 17:57   #26
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

Not to flame anyone but I am just asking why a sub-thread if there are already so many ASK THE GURU kind threads on this forum.
No malice meant to anyone again, and I appreciate the linguistic abilities of the writer. But thread value?
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Old 9th July 2011, 19:47   #27
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

The Point of this thread(if any?)
(guess some others too would also be having this question in mind)

Briefly
: It was an attempt to get people on the forum, especially the ones who know better to contribute towards creating some sort of a simplistic guide on how to select ICE.

When I tried to search for something like this, could not find one. I, for one am not too well versed with the technicalities and I suspect there are many many around who aren't. Thought that it could help people like us (who don't understand too much) to be able to select ICE in a better way.

The part after the OP was written to get the ball rolling. Also tried to write it in (what I imagined to be) an enjoyable way.

Now about the value of the thread - it really 'will' come when more knowledgeable people contribute to make this a sort of a guide. If you don't, the value will be limited to some possibly enjoyable read. Or maybe will add only that tiny bit of value for a few others.

-----------
Now for a bit longer bit with some quotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
OP, Navin, DerAlte, please do not be offended, but I hate to say this. WHAT is the point of this thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
It was only intended to share my thoughts on the subject to convey ideas without too many technical details and well, in a humorous manner to make for enjoyable reading. Want to share more on what the intention of the thread was (seems it will soon end as a was!).
Now from the first series of posts. Will apply formatting (bold, underline etc. to the relevant parts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
How to select ICE/Audio systems for your car and other ramblings
- especially for those new to it
(Most of this would be applicable to Audio systems outside cars too)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems like a good idea to share some thoughts on how to select ICE. I am no guru on this. Am just someone who enjoys music. And in the process have observed and understood some things over the years. Thought it would be good to share those. Also hope that the gurus on the subject will chip in to help the others with their observations, thoughts and recommendations and take this thread further.

Am NOT talking about specific brands, models or similar issues here. What I AM talking about here is the PROCESS of selecting good car audio. Tips to improve the sound quality in general could and should also be a part of this thread.

The idea of this thread is not to be a “What ICE” thread, but to help people decide how to select a good system and about proper installs and configuration. It could eventually be a general guide to selecting ICE.

To get the ball rolling, I’ll start with how I see this process, in the next few posts. It is lengthy. Hope it is not boring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
Am including some pretty basic stuff here too, so that it can help a broader base of readers.

~~~~~~~~~~

There are many other aspects to getting good sound. There are many experts on the forum who could take this further with talk on various things. What I can think of right away is power cables, good cables in general, dampening, tweeters and sub-woofer placement, component vs co-axials in a similar price range (say JBL components vs Infinity Co-axials). Oh! They could take the list on an on. I’d leave it to them. Besides they also have to tell us all the stuff about what to look for in a system with technical aspects. About Pre-outs being available for connecting amplifiers and a million other things.

Are the gurus listening? Maybe they just ran away reading all this over simplistic talk!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hope you guys find this useful. Do let me know what you think about it.
Would be good to have feedback. In any form. If they are bouquets, I’ll open a flower shop, if brickbats, build a house

More seriously - Feedback IS welcome.
Firstly, thanks for the feedback guys. Seems I'll have a house ready before the flower shop! (just remembered what Navin said in the 'rules' sticky - something like - take it lightly, after all it is only ICE).

What I was hoping and expecting was the guys who know better to take this thread forward. Navin surely did, informing us about how not to trust Sensitivity ratings either. Would be great if the others pitched in too. Then soon we'll have more value on this thread.

Some of us did find 'some' value however. Even if it was entertainment! (icE!!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dot View Post
Very well written. Thoroughly enjoyed your views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
A very informative series of posts, Poitive. Really appreciate the effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Excellent posts Poitive.
~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information on how to read between the lines of the published specifications read an AES paper that was presented a few years ago. The title of the paper is something like "Loudspeakers: What Measurements tell us and what they don't"

Do not just compare a single specification. If you do intend to compare specifications compare all the specs each of the manufacters list in a holistic manner and then just simply use your ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charthom View Post
@Poitive,

Your article is (or rather posts are) very enjoyable.Agree,disagree-your style is disarmingly non-pretentious, your words carry wisdom,your ideas are valid, your article as a whole, informative.

There are a lot of things we all agree with. And there are many things that I could learn from it. It was brushing up/re-confirming our perception of how to choose a good ICE,and a guidance to us in many areas that we would have normally neglected or not known. Thanks for the unique write up. Obviously,it has taken you a lot of time to gather and put down these ideas systematically, but that effort was worth every paise(or rather every 50 paise). Thanks,really.

Since this is an article which is supposed to be a systematic guide line( wish so)- your nice, often comical writing style,has diluted the knowledge part of it- at times it was as difficult as searching a needle in a hay stack for me. Please do the favour of writing a more condensed article-if you find my request significant.

~~~~~~~~~~

Now can we have some insights about the goods and bads of some nice brands- for our reference and future benefit?
Also was surprised with the "Thanked" numbers increasing after these series of posts. Made me think it is possibly being liked by a few.

A Request:

Guys, Mods (especially Navin), Gurujis, Knowledgeable people who find this too simple and basic, please add to this thread. I don't think I am the right person to add things here. There a much better versed people on this wonderful forum around. I urge you to take this (or rather, make this a) "How to Select ICE" guide, forward! It really wasn't THE END after my first series of posts. It was more like (how some of the movies from the 70's-80's used to say after 3 hours) - It is not THE END, It is THE BEGINNING.

Please take this forward. Thanks.


Edit: Should this thread belong to some other section, other than the "Ask the Gurus"?
Edit 2: There is this sticky about How to Normalize/Equalize the volume. It was pretty basic for me as I had already been doing that for years. But had no doubt about it's relevance and value to many others. Different things may appeal/add value, to different people.
---------------------------------
PS: The past few days have been sort of tight and the days to come may be even more. And writing with all these quotes takes a hell of a lot of time and patience. There is a chance that I may not really be writing on this thread for a short period, or only write in bits.

Last edited by Poitive : 9th July 2011 at 20:01. Reason: bit about "Thanked" numbers
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Old 10th July 2011, 08:35   #28
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
What I was hoping and expecting was the guys who know better to take this thread forward. Navin surely did, informing us about how not to trust Sensitivity ratings either.
The sad short truth about published specifications.
  • A manufacturer can publish only so much.
  • The more details a manufacturer submits as part of their published specs the more they tie themselves down (to continue to follow the same process/system using the same tools).
  • If every detail of the published specifications was listed, how many of the manufacturers customers actually read and try to understand these details.
  • Lastly since a speaker's response is so room/cabin dependant the published specifications no matter how detailed would be only a very rough guide of the speaker's capabilities (not it's performance).

That said I really wish modern manufactuers take a leaf out of the specifications published by say Paul Klipsch, Roy Allison, Edgar Villchur, etc. in the 50s and 60s.
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Old 10th July 2011, 09:19   #29
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

I read through this whole thread, which is very strange considering although I LOVE music, it has been 13 years since I have had half a decent Audio setup in my car, and by that I mean, it was two speakers, although very capable and very expensive for 1999 and a good Cassette player head unit from Pioneer which was made in Japan.

Anyways, coming back to the newbie point of view here, how many real newbies really go after the quality of sound as compared to the Dhinchak value of a music system. I for one give two hoots about what brand the speaker is as long as it plays everything from "Die Fledermaus":Obertura and the Nutcraker to Layla and Bohemian Rhapsody to some real hardcore bass thumping euro trance or Hip hop. The ICE in my Bolero was as bad as catching malaria, but it worked for whatever it was worth. Of course it did not play any Bass in any shape or form, but it worked and it played some music.

95% of the public will be like this. Like me. indifferent. For more proof, Read this. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sound-...swift-jbl.html (This thread always reminds me of the good old days.... If you guys know what I mean.. )

Anyways, im rambling, Let me finish this off, The day I ICE my car (god I hate that term), I am going to buy whatever is cheap and Sounds good to the range of music I play. No ICE setup is perfect is it? It can never be.. Now Some of you might question the purpose of this post, the purpose is simple, A newbie who wants to hear music in his car, is going to get something cheap and nice to hear, or he is going to go mad and buy things so expensive they appear to be nuclear reactors or something. * Hint Hint Frank Bhai*
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Old 11th July 2011, 19:41   #30
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Default Re: How to select ICE? - Did he run to the freezer with his microscope?

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Originally Posted by dot View Post
To enjoy, you really dont need a super high end system. Oh yes, they are good no doubt, thank the lord for the necessities, but thank you. It is never enough, a dangerous road with no end. A simple ICE, shut and forget it.

Give me an Ahuja anyday.
Did know of Ahuja making PA/home entertainment systems. Were they into ICE also?

Yes, it doesn't have to be expensive - you may have noticed that I managed a pretty satisfying car audio system under 7.5k!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
Ahuja was hi-fi when i was in school Ahuja, Bolton, Clarion (fake ones),Taparia - they were most hi-fi things we DIY guys could get our hands on, with our very limited budget. Ah, the old days.\
What I connect with is Woodstock, a Delhi based company. They still make some good stuff, but don't think they ever made ICE. And yes, they aren't expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Do not just compare a single specification. If you do intend to compare specifications compare all the specs each of the manufacters list in a holistic manner and then just simply use your ears.
Thanks for the bit on sensitivity numbers, Navin.

Would it be convenient to give a simplistic idea about how to interpret specification numbers? About power with respect to distortion specs etc. AFAIK, there are various standards for specifications too - Japanese European and probably others. You may be able to tell us how to use those numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charthom View Post
Your article is (or rather posts are) very enjoyable.Agree,disagree-your style is disarmingly non-pretentious, your words carry wisdom,your ideas are valid, your article as a whole, informative.
Thanks for your very kind words, Carthom.
Quote:
There are a lot of things we all agree with. And there are many things that I could learn from it. It was brushing up/re-confirming our perception of how to choose a good ICE,and a guidance to us in many areas that we would have normally neglected or not known. Thanks for the unique write up. Obviously,it has taken you a lot of time to gather and put down these ideas systematically, but that effort was worth every paise(or rather every 50 paise). Thanks,really.
Surprisingly, it didn't take too much time and there wasn't any gathering really- just punching in that bit I had picked up. Was largely done up in a few spare hours on a Sunday. Eventually brushed up a bit over a few casual reads. I was surprised with myself!

Quote:
Since this is an article which is supposed to be a systematic guide line( wish so)- your nice, often comical writing style,has diluted the knowledge part of it- at times it was as difficult as searching a needle in a hay stack for me. Please do the favour of writing a more condensed article-if you find my request significant.
I too was hoping that this would become some sort of a guideline, but we bank on the support of better versed guys on the forum. Navin is showing the way. Hope it works out!

About writing a more condensed version - It may need another of those Sundays with the right mood, but I may feel too intimidated to post it here!!

Till then, if you end up reading the posts again, avoid the parts below:
  • Headings in bold
  • Some of the following lines
  • The part about bass impressing the other gender.
  • Sony and Alpine's papa!!!!
  • The "Caution" para
  • The para with "The cows came home"
Quote:
Regarding the bass reproduction on Bose-have you noticed,Bose gives a declaration along with their systems(I got one) which states that they have reduced the Bass purposefully- too deep bass will be enjoyable only to "novices"!! Frankly,I find the Bose's interpretation of musical output the most palatable.
...................
I like classical music- Carnatic, Hindustani and Western- hence the basic set up I want is for that kind of music.But I have an ear for a wide variety of other music types-if they are not reproduced accurately,I am tolerant.
When I was talking about Bose systems, I really wasn't talking about the bass. Was referring to the deep male voice. Since you are fond of Western Classical, you may be able to find it in the Finale of Symphony 9 by Beethoven (I think the one I used to listen to were versions by Sir George Solti and Karajan. Sorry don't remember the Orchestras). Hearing Pavarotti, Chris Rea, Mark Knopfler too should bring out the difference.

IMO for music, 5.1 systems don't sound as good as a 2 speaker setup, which gives a wonderful sound stage. They also sound better on the whole.

Quote:
Sorry for the lengthy post, Carthom.
Was a warm and welcoming and enjoyable post! Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
I too try not to look at the brand or price lest I prejudice my sub-concious. Unfortunately this is not always possible.
In my case, I get biased a bit on the side of wallet-friendly stuff

Quote:
Does this unit have Time Alignment? I hate to have the bass coming from the trunk and the rest of the music coming from the front. Anyway lets not hijack Poitive's thread.
Doesn't that remind you of the 5.1 stuff? (bass from a different space)

And Navin (ji? ), it is not about hijacking my thread. It is not my thread, it is a thread for the forum in general. It needs more knowledgeable people to take this thread forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus43 View Post
I for one give two hoots about what brand the speaker is as long as it plays everything from
+1

Brand names may only help in shortlisting some stuff from the extensive range in the market.

Last edited by Poitive : 11th July 2011 at 19:46. Reason: wrong post innitially, formatting.
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