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Old 1st December 2011, 11:18   #16
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
... I feel that sound stage still not completely came at the front, even if I put the fader to completely at front, the singers voice feels like coming from rear, tying to find what is wrong, so far what I observe is that there is something wrong with the Polo's front door speakers position itself. ...
1. Do you have an amp, or are you driving the speakers from the HU?
2. Would you be able to post some pictures of your setup?
3. Can you describe your complete setup?

More than the position, I have a feeling it is the sensitivity of the speakers which is the culprit. To put it simply, the coaxials at the rear may be needing lesser power to produce the same loudness as the components in front. So, at any given time the rear speakers are playing louder. This can be corrected by using an amp - the gains for the front components can be set higher than the rear coaxials.

Less likely, though cannot be ruled out unless checked, is the possibility that the speakers are wired wrongly if you are using an amp or if the installer has put new speaker wires. That is, the fronts are wired to the rear channels of the HU, and the rears are wired to the front. Simple check: see if setting the Fader to rear completely corrects it. With the OE harness, it is not possible to make this mistake.
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Old 1st December 2011, 12:15   #17
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
1. Do you have an amp, or are you driving the speakers from the HU?
2. Would you be able to post some pictures of your setup?
3. Can you describe your complete setup?
Thanks for reply DerAlte

My system details:
HU - Kenwood 546BTU
Front Door - 6.5" Infinity components, tweeters mounted on A-Pillars by cutting holes, (pictures attached). Crossover set to 0, have checked +3bd too, it was too bright
Rear Doors - 6" Kicker components, tweeters mounted on rear door pads. Crossover set to the (-) value, I think its -3 as Kickers have three settings for crossovers

No AMP, I didn't feel the need for one as HU itself making enough sound for me, even I have set that 'cut-off/pre-amp' kind of setting to -8.

Fronts installed with OE wiring, while no rear OE wiring comes with the car, it had to be installed, installer was good guy who already done few Fabias, Polos, Ventos, so had good knowledge how to open and close panels of these cars.


Believe me, there is nothing wrong with wiring, I was with the car all those 3 days, while this system was being installed or reinstalled or configured. Sound comes from only left if fader set to front and balance set to left, sound comes from only from rear right, if fader set to rear and balance set to right. What I say is that, after playing with so settings and all, I feel that there is something wrong with the default speakers location in the POLO. When I sit back and hear, the system feels so great, but when hear from front, it doesn't feel that great, atleast for my likings, if I am to give a rating in this aspect, I would give it 6/10.

If talk about sensitivity, Infinity have better sensitivity than Kickers when we compare by listening both back to back. They feel more powerful in the car too.

But problem is that even if I set the fader completely towards the fronts only, the sound, especially the singer's volume feels little bit coming from back in maximum of songs, if song contains better stereo separations/effects, than this feels good, different effects feel coming from different locations, which I love the most while listening the music.

I hope I've described what I want to say, don't know how exactly I should say but hope you have understood what I want to say .

Pictures as you asked - Don't know how to add description with particular image at the moment, will learn but here is the Description as per picture sequence what I see in preview:
1. You can see the location of the tweeter mounted on A-pillar, I have only this picture at the moment will take more and post later if needed.
2. Proper socket for connecting the HU, no wire cut at all.
3. Spacers on all the doors
4. Tweeter mounted on rear door pad by cutting hole in it.
5. Maximum panels had to be opened to install rear wiring, it was bit a task that day.
6. 6" Kicker for rear, forgot to take pictures of front 6.5" Infinity speakers, but I think those are 6030.
Attached Thumbnails
ICE for my Alto K10-27102011111.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-14042011260.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-14042011275.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-14042011263.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-14042011265.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-14042011272.jpg  

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Old 1st December 2011, 12:57   #18
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Oh well, oh well, I didn't realize that you had components at the rear!!! Do you realize that the rear tweeter is closer to your ears than the front tweeter? A substantial part of the image is created by the higher frequencies. The closer you place a tweeter to your ears (it will not be any brighter than it is naturally ), the closer the voices - especially female voices - sound to you. Similarly, the higher one sets the low-pass frequency of a sub (the frequencies below which a sub is allowed to handle), the more the image feels pulled towards the sub.

That is one reason that most people *don't* put components at the back. The XO switch that you are playing around with only changes the loudness of the higher frequencies, does not increase or decrease the loudness of the entire spectrum. Leave those switches at 0db, or -3db if they are too bright otherwise.

1. The cheapest solution for you is to replace the rear components with coaxials. Best would be to put a good pair of 6x9 on an MDF parcel shelf, so that you get better bass than the 6.5" round coaxials in the doors

2. An amp would be the next economical solution. With an amp:
a. you will be able to set lower gains for the rear channel
b. you will have better dynamic range (ability of the system to handle soft and loud music passages without distorting) - it will only play as loud as you set the volume control at. Amps don't make the music go loud by themselves unless there is a loud music passage. Nor do they sound louder at the same volume control setting (with proper tuning). An external amp being unnecessary is a wrong assumption - it really enhances the listening pleasure

3. The ultimate option would be to use an HU with Time Alignment (costlier) or use and external 'equalizer' capable of Time Alignment like MS-8 or Bit One etc. (costliest)

Try the simplest methods first, like disconnecting the rear tweeters, to see if the image moves forward to your liking. If so, change from components to coax at the back.

BTW, the smaller hole near the lower part of the rear door pad - what was that for?
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Old 1st December 2011, 13:55   #19
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Thanks again for the prompt reply DerAlte, My replies are in bold :
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Do you realize that the rear tweeter is closer to your ears than the front tweeter? A substantial part of the image is created by the higher frequencies. The closer you place a tweeter to your ears (it will not be any brighter than it is naturally ), the closer the voices - especially female voices - sound to you.

Actually I also thought that coaxials at rear may help, but real problem is with front speaker's feeling itself, as I said earlier that the sound still feels little bit comming from rear or from over the head even if I set the fader completely towards the front (15 is max in my HU), in this situaltion nothing left for rear - means rears are off, I've checked by listening those with this setting. The sound stage is unchanged until I put the fader more towards rear, then the sound fades more towards the rear. Offcourse Its not like coaxials at front and components at rear, fronts dominate the rears in output, frequencies or in everything, only problem is with sound stage, which doesn't feel completely or more at front, its like the sound stage is at the center of the car but but my position is not where it should be. Sound stage doesn't feel like what we listen at our home theatre where rears just play the role of supportive colleagues, may be I am expecting too much.


Best would be to put a good pair of 6x9 on an MDF parcel shelf, so that you get better bass than the 6.5" round coaxials in the doors

Actually I would not like to install speakers at rear as far as I don't find any complaint about stock location in terms of bass, there is no complaint about the bass, Honestly speaking its as per my liking and quality is above my expectations, whoever listened the music in my car, asked me that which AMP-SUB I have in my car - believe me, I think its becasue of built quality of POLO, especially doors, which play the role of speaker/woofer encloser here.


An external amp being unnecessary is a wrong assumption - it really enhances the listening pleasure

Yeah, I also think so but still not 100% sure about that the AMP will really add some enhancement here


3. The ultimate option would be to use an HU with Time Alignment (costlier) or use and external 'equalizer' capable of Time Alignment like MS-8 or Bit One etc. (costliest)

This sounds interesting, What is that? Would like to hear more about that, how much does it cost? Is there any heavy wiring needed to be put like what we do with AMP by connecting that directly with the battery which I would not like to do.

Try the simplest methods first, like disconnecting the rear tweeters, to see if the image moves forward to your liking. If so, change from components to coax at the back.


BTW, the smaller hole near the lower part of the rear door pad - what was that for?
The hole is for rear window roller, as its a Trendline
Hope my postings won't be considered as hijacking of original posters's thread, an assurance will make me feel comfortable as this is my first discussion on this great platform.
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Old 11th December 2011, 13:47   #20
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Sorry for the late reply. Got really busy.

I have managed to get some pictures of the ICE installation. As per your valuable advice, I thought of taking things slowly. As a start, I had put in a pair of MTX thunder 6000 T6C693 (6x9) speakers in the back. The dealer told me that it would be wise to put it in box as the bass that these speakers produce are more like a woofer and a ported box would help to give the tightness of bass . Plus parcel tray would bend after a long time due to the weight of the speakers also parcel tray would be unable to give tightness to bass. He (dealer) said that the boxes have to be made specifically for the K10, and the boxes he had was for the old alto( 800cc). I had to wait another day for the boxes to be made.

Currently these speakers are run by the head unit without any external amp. To be honest, i was a bit skeptical about the description of bass that these speakers were able to produce while installation but boy was I happy with my decision. The bass was incredible and tight which I like. I am so much satisfied with the bass and it is not overpowering in any way and the silky dome tweeters(two in each speakers) were awesome in giving some nice warm treble sound.

But I do wanted to mention that I actually thought that I was gonna keep the parcel tray if I go with the boxes. Well parcel tray has to be sacrificed.

Anyways let the pictures speak for itself.
Attached Thumbnails
ICE for my Alto K10-photo0047.jpg  

ICE for my Alto K10-photo0048.jpg  

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Old 12th December 2011, 15:34   #21
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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... The dealer told me that it would be wise to put it in box as the bass that these speakers produce are more like a woofer and a ported box would help to give the tightness of bass ...
What in heavens??? "Tightness of bass" from a ported box for a 6x9? Obviously the 'wisdom' was on his part for himself - to earn him more money. This, in North India, is called "choona lagana"; or in South India explained by waving the bottom edge of the hand over the head signifying shaving of the head. He talks pseudo mumbo-jumbo nonsense, charges you money for the boxes, makes you lose boot space ... the least you can do is protest by telling him that the size of the box is completely dependent on the Thiele Small parameters of the speaker and cannot be arbitrarily assumed, and that the 'port' will give very little gain at the frequencies that come out of the speaker. All this will be mumbo-jumbo for him actually.

Perhaps you should ask this gentleman to take back the boxes, return you the money and fit a simple MDF parcel shelf instead? Maybe you should educate him courtesy TBHP ICE section.
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Old 13th December 2011, 01:40   #22
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Thank you kindly for your reply.
I called some of my (actually 3) friends to audition the setup that they have to compare with me. They all have hatch backs (alto and M-800) and similar set up as me. I mean front speakers and rear 6x9s powered by headunits and no amps.
One of them is having 4 inch components in front (without amp) and 6x9(pioneer) in rear hatch door. (Headunit is Pioneer)
Other one 4 inch co axials in front (sony) and 6x9 (sony xplod) in rear hatch. Head unit is sony.
Last one having pioneer 6x9 in the parcel tray and some 4" co-axials in the front. Headunit is Kenwood.

Of them all, I think mine sounds better than all of them. It might be the headunit or speakers. I am not sure, but I could hear more clear treble and balanced mid and good tight bass from my setup even though I feel like the bass is from rear and mid and treble from the front. At least mine better to listen to than others. I am no audiophile but I love to enjoy my music with better quality.
The bass I am getting from the MTX is absolutely mind blowing. Its not really overpowering in anyway even when sitting in back seat with volume around 40. Another front of mine has an alto with sony xplod speakers in the parcel tray run by headunit, while I was sitting in the rear listening to some metal, I have to say it was a total mess. The mids were mushy, treble was literally not there and bass was horrible with a lot of boom and I ended up having a head ache. On the other hand mine was 10 times better than him. Its feels so much clear sitting in the rear of my car with that much volume while listening to the same tracks. I didnt get headaches also. I dont know if its the MTX speakers or the box but I am getting a lot of good bass (can compare with home PC setup which has a THX certified 2.1 speaker system from Logitech while bass is set to 45% ) from the current setup except the music seems like its coming from different directions . But that's I can live with that for now. I am upgrading later anyways.
Again I am no guru nor I have any good experience with ICE but listening to metal & Jazz (which I mostly listens to) is really nice to listen on the current set up. But from your reply, I feel the need to listen to the speakers to be fitted in the parcel tray to see how they compare with the same speakers in the box. I would go back when I get time and get this done. I have the parcel tray lying useless at home anyway. What's the harm in using it to check the speakers, right ?
I really dont feel like I am loosing a lot of boot may be because I dont use much of a boot. Current boot space is enough. I used to carry the car cover in the boot but now that I have the boxes in the boot, I keep the car cover at home.
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Old 13th December 2011, 01:44   #23
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Also I will contact some of Trivandrum TBHPians when I get access to PM in T-BHP.

Anybody from Trivandrum wants offer me an audition of your system, please call me. I am sure if the rules allow me to post my phone number here. So I am not posting my phone number. Anybody please confirm.

Thank you for all your continued support. I really appreciate it.
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Old 14th December 2011, 14:13   #24
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
@sankar, perhaps you could help @simkuriakose audition the TVM TBHPians rides, starting with yours? He does not have access to PMs till he crosses 50 posts.
Missed this since i was out of the forum for last couple of weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Yes please help me !!!
You're welcome to listen to my ICE setup if you would like to. Contact me via email from my user profile.

Just saw that you already iced your car, hope it suits your requirements.

Last edited by Sankar : 14th December 2011 at 14:19.
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Old 15th December 2011, 04:14   #25
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You're welcome to listen to my ICE setup if you would like to. Contact me via email from my user profile.
Thank you so much for offering me help but when I checked your profile it shows "Sankar has no contact information" May be I don't have enough access at T-BHP to see the contact information yet.
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Old 15th December 2011, 10:17   #26
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Do you realize that the rear tweeter is closer to your ears than the front tweeter?

3. The ultimate option would be to use an HU with Time Alignment (costlier) or use and external 'equalizer' capable of Time Alignment like MS-8 or Bit One etc. (costliest)
1. Try out various genres of music. Some artists mix the songs to give you a very artificial soundstage. Thankfully modern engineers are a bit more focussed so recording techniques have improved since the 60s and early 70s.

2. TA is an excellent solution. THere are various degrees of TA though. At the simple end is delaying the sound from your front speakers so that the it arrives at the same time as the sound from the subwoofer. At the complex end you can TA each driver (aka subwoofer, woofer, midrange, tweeter) and use multiple amps (no passive crossovers) like some like Frank Mehta and LBM have done. In most cases a HU with TA offers more control than a MS-8, E-650, or bit one. These processors are only required when you need OEM looks and still want TA and EQ control.
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Old 5th January 2012, 22:12   #27
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

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1. Try out various genres of music.
Thanks for answering navin.

My preferred genre is easy listening/lounge kind of music. When I was installing ICE, I tested it with different tracks which I like. You are right that sound stage seems at front with some tracks and sometimes it seems at back or above the head.

Issue - when some normal Indian or English pop/Bollywood/Hindi music or any other normal track with vocals is playing :-
Let's forget about the rear speakers and their position for right now. assume that fader is completely towards the front and no sound coming from rear (no leakage too). Most of the time singer's voice feels coming from back even if only front speakers are on, its not like what I prefer. But if I change the balance little towards left then the sound stage comes at my preferred location but I think its not the solution becasue what if someone shares co-passenger seat and equally likes the music the way I like.

Front tweeters are on A pillars and speakers are on stock front door position.
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