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Old 25th November 2011, 06:53   #1
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Unhappy ICE for my Alto K10

Hi Guys !
This is my very first post in Team BHP. I am very excited to a part of this wonderful community. Eventhough I just became a member, a lot of info i have read from T BHP helped to make up my mind in purchasing my very first car, which I am happy to say is my new buddy, the Alto K10 VXi ( I will be writing my ownership review soon) . Let me start by thanking everybody.

This post is regarding a small ICE upgrade for my car. Currently I am running a JBL X333 Head unit (JBL GT-X333) and in front I have JBL CS-4 (JBL - Product Support - CS-4) which is a 4" co-axial speaker .

I wanted to add a little bit more bass to the existing support because I mostly listen to Metal & Rock and sometimes rap/techno. I couldn't feel the beats of the drum in metal / rock tracks and thereby loosing the feel of the music. I am not a fan of the Boom boom bass of the bass tubes so i ruled them off.

Anyways, I thought of adding a ported sub (JBL Bass pro12 active sub) would be the best idea but being a complete noobie in car audio, I thought it would be better to ask for an expert help. So i went ahead for some consult with an accessories shop ( in Trivandrum, Kerala) talked to the shop owner( A really good guy and very polite and professional). I told him my requirements and he suggested that it would be better to add a 6x9 speakers in the rear (in boxes and not in tray as the weight of the speakers would bend the tray eventually) and if I still require more bass, I can add a SUB later. Only adding the sub in the rear and 4" co-axials in the front is an odd setup and the subwoofer would end up overpowering the setup and music will not sound good in my small hatchback as all the details from the front speakers would fade in the sub's low frequencies. Fellow T-BHPians, what are your expert advice to me on this ? please advice.... (I never heard any ICE on any cars before other than my own so I have zero clue how it will sound )

The shop owner suggested a pair of MTX T6C693 - THUNDER6000 series (MTX Europe - T6C693) which is a 6x9 speaker for 6k.
Specs
RMS Power : 120W
Max Power : 480W
Impedance : 4Ohm
Frequency response : 27Hz - 25kHz
Sensitivity : 94,0dB/2,83V/1m
Diameter : 15x23cm (6"x 9)
Mounting depth : 76,5mm

As per the owner the MTX T6C693 would give much better bass than any of the other 6x9s and would probably eliminate the need for sub. He also suggested two add a two channel JBL GT X424 amplifier(JBL GT-X424) as the 6x9s will sound much better than connecting directly to the HU. He also suggested damping (Brand: Dynamate) in the rear hatch door and two rear doors. Front doors are not required as per the shop owner because there is no speakers in the front door.

These bring me to my questions

1 ) Is the second setup (MTX 6x9 and JBL amp) would sound good ? I mean JBL GT X424 is an amp that has only 50W RMS per channel but the 6x9s have 120W RMS. If I am going ahead with this setup, am I underpowering the speakers with the JBL amp ? Will I be able to extract the full potential of the MTX 6x9s with this amp? Should I choose another amp? If so please suggest me a good amp which would be able to drive the speakers to full potential and safely too.

I appologise for the lengthy post. I am a total noobie and has zero experience in car audio.

PS : Also my friend suggested a good component upgrade in the front doors as it would improve quality but I really do not like the idea of cutting a hole in the car . So currently I am not considering a front component upgrade atleast not in the door.

I am looking forward for your valuable suggestions. Thanks in advance.
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Old 25th November 2011, 11:03   #2
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Default Re: Alto K10 ICE advice please

Don't be in a hurry. Though the dealer has made a decent suggestion, there are better & more economical ways of getting what you want. First of all, meet up with Trivandrum TBHPians and audition their ICE.

1. What is your budget?
2. You seem to be expressing your bass-aversion by listening to the terrible boom-boom outside the cars that some people like to show off. Listening to a decent system will change your opinion about subwoofers
3. 6x9 speakers do provide a decent feeling of bass at a lower cost, but that cannot be called listening to bass as it was meant to be. There is no substitute for a good subwoofer
4. There are more economical, and better, 6x9 speakers than what your dealer has quoted. Just remember, the world is not limited to that one dealer
5. There is not much point in buying a 2-channel amp just to power the rear speakers - you will get a really rear-heavy sound stage. And that can be disorienting most of the time. OTOH, a 4-channel makes lot more sense, especially if you want a good balanced sound stage in the car
6. There is nothing better than having 6.5" components (at least) in the front. With the 4" speakers, you would be missing a lot. AFAIK, it doesn't require cutting the door. Do search and read up the threads of how TBHPians have done it in their Altos.

Again, don't be in a tearing hurry to make mistakes. Take your time - listen to other installations to know good from bad. Make a plan - you need not upgrade everything at the same time if you are budget-conscious. Ask around for good deals/prices, but don't buy something without knowing whether it is VFM or not at that price.
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Old 25th November 2011, 11:30   #3
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Default Re: Alto K10 ICE advice please

If you need to enjoy music go with a decent front sound stage. Buy a pair of 6.5" component speakers and put it in the front door with damping. The door panel will need to be cut for this. Front sound stage should be the first thing to do if you need to enjoy music in your car.

Then instead of adding 6x9 speakers at the rear go for a subwoofer, either ported or sealed. Ported will play nicely too without any irritating boom boom if you get it set up right.

The sub would need an amp, its better if you can power the front compos too, but if budget doesn't allow save it for later.
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Old 26th November 2011, 22:29   #4
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Thanks for the replies guys. For now, I believe it would be better to take your advice and not rush into a conclusion.
4" components are a really nice alternative, correct me if I am wrong but isnt 4" components are a bit hard to find ?
But I guess I have to hear some set ups first. Can I ask you guys something? I am not really sure how to contact the trivandrum TBHPians and ask help. I did a search through the members list but I couldn't find a way to contact them. Could you help ?

For now I would just upgrade my RIMs to a nice set of alloys. And If i have some money left, i would go for a pair of 6x9s as a temp set up till I complete my quest for a good ICE set up.
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Old 26th November 2011, 23:38   #5
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Doing upgrades in multiple stages and planning ahead makes a lot of sense but since I cant conclude which way I should go... My only requirement is that I want to add more bass to my current set up ( which I like except for the lack of bass) . I don't use so much volume inside a car.
I am still open for suggestions if anybody wants to comment.
Once again I appreciate all your valuable comments.
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Old 27th November 2011, 00:03   #6
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
This post is regarding a small ICE upgrade for my car. Currently I am running a JBL X333 Head unit (JBL GT-X333) and in front I have JBL CS-4 (JBL - Product Support - CS-4) which is a 4" co-axial speaker .

I wanted to add a little bit more bass to the existing support because I mostly listen to Metal & Rock and sometimes rap/techno. I couldn't feel the beats of the drum in metal / rock tracks and thereby loosing the feel of the music. I am not a fan of the Boom boom bass of the bass tubes so i ruled them off.
kuriakose, like everyone suggested, do not hurry into buying something. IF you can upgrade your front speakers to 6.5" components , there is nothing else better, you might not even need an amp, but if you still do, get a 4 channel amp.
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Old 27th November 2011, 10:17   #7
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
... Front sound stage should be the first thing to do if you need to enjoy music in your car. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
... I am not really sure how to contact the trivandrum TBHPians and ask help. I did a search through the members list but I couldn't find a way to contact them. ...
@sankar, perhaps you could help @simkuriakose audition the TVM TBHPians rides, starting with yours? He does not have access to PMs till he crosses 50 posts.

@simkuriakose, yes, getting a pair of 6x9 coaxes would improve it for the time being. You will also need a sturdy MDF plank to replace the parcel shelf. Make sure the plank is adequately reinforced at the bottom to take the weight of the 6x9s, otherwise it will sag over time.
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Old 28th November 2011, 22:42   #8
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Yes please help me !!!

Just a thought, Would infinity 4" (Infinity KAPPA42.9i ) in the dash and a sub in the rear would be a great combination ? Also front infinity speakers powerd by an amp.
What do you think ?????
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Old 28th November 2011, 23:33   #9
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Yes please help me !!!

Just a thought, Would infinity 4" (Infinity KAPPA42.9i ) in the dash and a sub in the rear would be a great combination ? Also front infinity speakers powerd by an amp.
What do you think ?????
Basically what I want is the best sounding ICE setup without the cutting into the panels especially door panel.
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Old 29th November 2011, 02:12   #10
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Default caraccessoriesindia.com

Anyone bought anything from the site

Car Accessories at lowest price || More than 40% Discount on ALL Products ? The prices are really cheap there and temptation to buy from there is really high.

Anyone has experience with the site, Please share
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Old 29th November 2011, 07:38   #11
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Default Re: caraccessoriesindia.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Yes please help me !!!

Just a thought, Would infinity 4" (Infinity KAPPA42.9i ) in the dash and a sub in the rear would be a great combination ? Also front infinity speakers powerd by an amp.
What do you think ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Basically what I want is the best sounding ICE setup without the cutting into the panels especially door panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Anyone bought anything from the site

Car Accessories at lowest price || More than 40% Discount on ALL Products ? The prices are really cheap there and temptation to buy from there is really high.

Anyone has experience with the site, Please share
@Simkuriakose, I think you are getting too much excited and asking too many questions (happens to everyone who ventures in the ICE). If you are going for a 4" you will sure miss some of the lower positions of the frequency. As many suggested its better to go for a 6.5". Now for the installation part, if you still want to do it without cutting the panel, the only two ways I know it can be done are:

* Fabricate a custom FG enclosure of the 6.5" in the door pad.
* Try and install the 6.5" in the kicker panel (again with custom FG). Then again in an ALTO i doubt you will get enough volume for the 6.5 to perform.

Getting FG done in TVM is nearly impossible unless you want to go the DIY way.

Venki
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Old 29th November 2011, 08:51   #12
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

I think I am getting weigh ahead of me...You are right, I am really excited about it.
Today I would probably go back to the dealer hear some 6x9s and If i like something i would install it in my car just for now. I have a feeling that the research for the ICE would take a loooooong time.
I would update as soon as I do any upgrade.
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Old 29th November 2011, 10:50   #13
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Don't go in for a sub at the moment, especially if you are not putting in 6.5" speakers. Tuning such a system is a major headache - the sound image will be pulled backwards (it will sound as if the musicians are just behind you in the driver's seat) if you are making the sub compensate for the missing mid-bass from the front speakers. Also, the system will sound extremely bass heavy.

Instead, first put 6x9s (only, without an amp; listen to them is a car first) on a sturdy plank replacing the parcel shelf. This would be easier to tune with the Fader. A good pair of 6x9s, though they wouldn't rival a sub, will give you enough bass to keep you satisfied for some time.

I say 'some time' because it is just a matter of time that you will outgrow your system and feel the need for a system. That's natural.
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Old 30th November 2011, 19:48   #14
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Default Re: caraccessoriesindia.com

Thank you so much..Its a good advice. I will go with the 6x9s and upgrade later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simkuriakose View Post
Anyone bought anything from the site

caraccessoriesindia.com? The prices are really cheap there and temptation to buy from there is really high.
Anyone ????
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Old 1st December 2011, 06:11   #15
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Default Re: ICE for my Alto K10

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
2. You seem to be expressing your bass-aversion by listening to the terrible boom-boom outside the cars that some people like to show off. Listening to a decent system will change your opinion about subwoofers


Again, don't be in a tearing hurry to make mistakes. Take your time - listen to other installations to know good from bad. Make a plan - you need not upgrade everything at the same time if you are budget-conscious. Ask around for good deals/prices, but don't buy something without knowing whether it is VFM or not at that price.
I would also like to add that the boom-boom bass of a sub-woofer starts feeling annoying after some time which people usually fit in their cars just to show off others. Offcourse the subwoofers add new dimension in music listening experience if done intelligently, but it takes time to find a proper system and configure in correct way of our liking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
the sound image will be pulled backwards (it will sound as if the musicians are just behind you in the driver's seat) if you are making the sub compensate for the missing mid-bass from the front speakers. Also, the system will sound extremely bass heavy.
This is most important point in ICE which should always be considered at first place while we talk about any music system, would you like to see a movie in theatre while all the dialogues are coming from rear?

When I bought POLO in last April, I was also hunting for decent system for it, I just new how I want to hear the music but didn't have much knowledge of ICE equipements, just used to knew there are some speakers, amp and sub along with an expensive headunit is considered as a great sound system for a car. Team-BHP helped me a lot in finding a system of my likings (along with car itself too), but still I started with making a mistake to put 6.5" coaxials in front doors along with 6" components at the rear doors (very hardly got convienced to make holes for tweeters in rear door pads though), now I feel how foolish I got that time even after I was reading guidance on Team-BHP just becasue I didn't want to make holes in A-pillar or in front doors for the tweeters. Overall sound quality was decent but all the sound felt like coming from rear which I really don't like at all. I was disappointed and after few days went to my installer and got replaced the front coaxials with 6.5" Infinity components with tweeters at A-Pillars - the whole story changed. That time I learnt that best speakers should be at front, rear should just do supportive job.


Though still one question from you DerAlte, I feel that sound stage still not completely came at the front, even if I put the fader to completely at front, the singers voice feels like coming from rear, tying to find what is wrong, so far what I observe is that there is something wrong with the Polo's front door speakers position itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venki7744 View Post
@Simkuriakose, I think you are getting too much excited and asking too many questions (happens to everyone who ventures in the ICE).
Yeah, sometimes we get so excited when talk about ICE, but Simkuriakose, would request you to keep your excitement under control, as you have already used so much dots and question marks in your post which may attract attentions of humble moderators very easily, don't know if I have also made mistakes as this is my first post too and I am trying to make you understand the rules
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