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Old 18th April 2012, 15:17   #1
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Default Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

Back with(or rather forced for) another ICE upgrade after my tryst with damping.

I been using JBL 607c component speaker set for almost 4.5 years now with the following spec.
  • 2-ohm impedance for extra power (compatible with all factory or aftermarket car stereos)
  • 2-way external crossover network (12 dB/octave, 4,000 Hz high- and low-pass) with adjustable tweeter attenuation settings
  • power range: 2-70 watts RMS (210 watts peak power)
  • frequency response: 55-21,000 Hz
  • sensitivity: 92 dB
  • top-mount depth: 2-1/16"
Now that one of the speakers is blown(not sure if it was the damping DIY or the 75 w amp working on the 70w speaker), i would like to replace the mids alone keeping the rest of the setup the same(crossover and tweeters). I wanted to replace this alongside when I replaced my JBL GTO963i with infinity kappa 693.9i, but for money and the looming prospect of getting a new car. Sadly the mids failed on me and i cant stand anymore music with all the distortion and getting a new car seems atleast an year away.


After lot of search i landed on JL Audio C2-650CW 6-1/2" Evolution Series Component Midwoofer 6.5" Car Speaker | eBay
with the following spec
  • Continuous Power Handling (RMS) 60 W
  • Peak Music Power 150 W
  • Recommended RMS Amplifier Power (per Ch.) 15 - 100 W
  • System Efficiency 91.0 dB @ 1 W / 1 m System
  • Nominal Impedance 4 Ω
  • System Frequency Response 59 Hz - 6 KHz 3 dB
Is it ok to go ahead and order a pair of the above speakers?
will it cause the tweeter to overshadow the mids?


I use a Pioneer GM-6400F amp with the following spec
  • Continuous Power Output (2 Ω, ≤ 1% THD+N) 75 W x 4
  • Continuous Power Output (4 Ω, ≤ 1% THD+N) 60 W x 4
  • Crossover Type 4-Ch. HPF/LPF
  • Crossover Frequency 80 Hz
  • Crossover Slope -12 dB/oct.
Any inputs are appreciated. And please note that this would be another DIY.

Last edited by glidealong : 18th April 2012 at 15:30.
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Old 18th April 2012, 15:28   #2
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Originally Posted by glidealong View Post

Continuous Power Handling (RMS) 60 W Peak Music Power 150 W Recommended RMS Amplifier Power (per Ch.) 15 - 100 W System Efficiency 91.0 dB @ 1 W / 1 m System Nominal Impedance 4 Ω System Frequency Response 59 Hz - 6 KHz 3 dB
Is it ok to go ahead and order a pair of the above speakers?
will it cause the tweeter to overshadow the mids?


Any inputs are appreciated. And please note that this would be another DIY.
I am bit taken aback. The replacement speakers are $80 each (please note the seller has specified ONE brand new speaker) so you would spend $160 to replace the mids of a component system that cost much less as a brand new set?


The 607C was specified at 2Ω but was actually 3.2Ω, but that is another story, in effect the speaker was of a lower impedance than a standard speaker.
Also you would be using the supplied crossover, which was designed for that lower impedance speaker.

That doesn't mean that the JL audio mid would sound bad, it just means that it seems like a rather expensive trial.

Either get the mids repaired, or replace the entire component system. Both options that I have suggested are cheaper than your current option.

Cheers,
Sam
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Old 18th April 2012, 18:10   #3
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
The replacement speakers are $80 each (please note the seller has specified ONE brand new speaker) so you would spend $160 to replace the mids of a component system that cost much less as a brand new set?

Also you would be using the supplied crossover, which was designed for that lower impedance speaker.

That doesn't mean that the JL audio mid would sound bad, it just means that it seems like a rather expensive trial.

Either get the mids repaired, or replace the entire component system. Both options that I have suggested are cheaper than your current option.

Cheers,
Sam
Thanks Sam, it does make sense.
What do you think about this
NEW Infinity REFERENCE 6030cs 6-1/2" Component Speaker System 6.5 (050667110420) | eBay
Probably would match the performance of the Infinity Kappa 693.9i in the rear tray. I would have loved to have kappa components on the front, but it looks too expensive at this point. This costs the same as a pair of JL Audio mids i mentioned. So it validates your point?

Now what to do with the electronic waste, aka, 607c. Probably i can setup a monitor with the working set of components, which I intend to use for the occasional jamming sessions and give the damaged set to the "Aakri" fellows!!!

Do you think the 607c would be good for a monitor to be hooked up with an electric guitar - or would it be a waste of time, money and energy?

Last edited by glidealong : 18th April 2012 at 18:12.
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Old 19th April 2012, 10:12   #4
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Thanks Sam, it does make sense.

Probably would match the performance of the Infinity Kappa 693.9i

Now what to do with the electronic waste, aka, 607c. Probably i can setup a monitor with the working set of components, which I intend to use for the occasional jamming sessions ...to be hooked up with an electric guitar - or would it be a waste of time, money and energy?
Sam is BACK! Dont know where the Yeti-meister disappeared to but I for one missed the Loveable Snowman.

The 6030 will not produce the quantity of bass the 693 can. the 693 (like all 6x9s) has the Sd of a 8" woofer and is usually installed on the rear deck and hence has a much larger working volume than the 6030 which is usually installed in a car door. Moreover the 6030 (I am told) is more laid back than the 693. Some like this, some dont. Listen and learn.

Even good Home drivers will find it hard to put with the demands of Pro audio use. Yes you may get some sound out of this "contraption" (which amp do you intend to power the 607 with?) but it wont be listenable. Remember the outputs from the pickups of your electric guitar is in the order of 60-750mV (if they are passive). If you have active pickups on your guitar (does your guitar need batteries - usually a pair of 9V batteries) maybe you can hook up the guitar to the speaker - such pickups will put out 1-2V which translates to 0.25W-1W for a 4 ohm speaker.

Outside of Active-Bass setups I have not found an active electric guitar whose sond I liked but that is another story.
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Old 19th April 2012, 18:44   #5
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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The 6030 will not produce the quantity of bass the 693 can. the 693 (like all 6x9s) has the Sd of a 8" woofer and is usually installed on the rear deck and hence has a much larger working volume than the 6030 which is usually installed in a car door. Moreover the 6030 (I am told) is more laid back than the 693. Some like this, some dont. Listen and learn.
Yeah, i do understand the fact that 6.5" mid driver would not give the same bass punch as a 6x9. But I dont have the deep pockets to do a listen and learn. moreover my swift broke down today with a broken shaft/axil and needed to be towed to the service center. So that's gonna burn another hole in my pocket. Now I am looking for cheaper options like
Pioneer TS-A1604C (TSA1604C) 6.5" 2-Way Component Speaker System

But they say integrated crossover... would i still be able to use my 607c crossovers with these pioneers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
Even good Home drivers will find it hard to put with the demands of Pro audio use. Yes you may get some sound out of this "contraption" (which amp do you intend to power the 607 with?) but it wont be listenable. Remember the outputs from the pickups of your electric guitar is in the order of 60-750mV (if they are passive). If you have active pickups on your guitar (does your guitar need batteries - usually a pair of 9V batteries) maybe you can hook up the guitar to the speaker - such pickups will put out 1-2V which translates to 0.25W-1W for a 4 ohm speaker.

Outside of Active-Bass setups I have not found an active electric guitar whose sound I liked but that is another story.
Well, the word contraption is putting me off. That does sound like a prospective waste of time,energy and money. Anyways, its a jackson electric guitar of my friend whom i jam with(I am just another jackass rhythm guitarist with an acoustic yamaha) and i guess its passive. I haven't decided on the amp, but I would love to invest in amp, if it would lend a new dimension to our jamming sessions. It's been acoustic for almost 8 years.

But the word contraption is putting me off...
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Old 20th April 2012, 10:19   #6
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Originally Posted by glidealong View Post

Now I am looking for cheaper options like
Pioneer TS-A1604C (TSA1604C) 6.5" 2-Way Component Speaker System

But they say integrated crossover... would i still be able to use my 607c crossovers with these pioneers?



Well, the word contraption is putting me off. ... Anyways, its a jackson electric guitar of my friend whom i jam with ..I haven't decided on the amp, but I would love to invest in amp, if it would lend a new dimension to our jamming sessions. It's been acoustic for almost 8 years.
1. The 6030 in my view should outperfrom the Pioneer 1604. I say this not becuase I have heard both but I have heard the 6010 and 6020 and may 6" Pioneers and in all cases the Infinity was more refined and had less listening fatigue than the Pioneers.

2. Do not mix crossovers from one system with drivers from another. Unless you know exactly what you are doing or are willing to accept mixed results you should stick to using the crossover that came with that system.

3. Well what else would you call a 607 sitting in open air (no box) powered by an electric guitar?

a. firstly you'd need a box for te 607 (preferably open back)
b. then you need some preamp-power amp thing to convert 100mV to 10V. 10V = 25W @ 4 ohms.
c. the result of adding the box and amp to the speaker might still leave you wanting. Why not get a cheap guitar amp like the links below.

Musicians Mall

http://bajaao.com/components/com_vir...oduct/fx30.jpg

Kustom sound amplispeaker cube 20r, Buy & Review Kustom sound products online at Furtadosonline.com
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Old 23rd April 2012, 13:53   #7
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
1. The 6030 in my view should outperfrom the Pioneer 1604. I say this not becuase I have heard both but I have heard the 6010 and 6020 and may 6" Pioneers and in all cases the Infinity was more refined and had less listening fatigue than the Pioneers.
Point taken, now that I had 12k spent on shaft,axle and 2 struts, i will have to wait till next months salary to buy an infinity kappa components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
2. Do not mix crossovers from one system with drivers from another.

So component systems are not really component systems, where you can mix and match various components, so to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post


3. Well what else would you call a 607 sitting in open air (no box) powered by an electric guitar?
, but i never meant that. What I meant was, if the effort required to build a box, mount it and money invested in an amplifier would be worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
a. firstly you'd need a box for te 607 (preferably open back)
b. then you need some preamp-power amp thing to convert 100mV to 10V. 10V = 25W @ 4 ohms.
c. the result of adding the box and amp to the speaker might still leave you wanting. Why not get a cheap guitar amp like the links below.
Hmm, well 2 things,
1. disposal of e-waste. These days disposal of any type of waste in this part of the country is a big issue.
2. the satisfaction of working on an am-mature sound project.

Anyways, thanks for the links, the cort looks promising and I might buy it. But I still got the urge for building the "contraption".

Last edited by glidealong : 23rd April 2012 at 13:57.
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Old 24th April 2012, 11:28   #8
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Originally Posted by glidealong View Post
, but i never meant that. What I meant was, if the effort required to build a box, mount it and money invested in an amplifier would be worth it.

Hmm, well 2 things,
1. disposal of e-waste. These days disposal of any type of waste in this part of the country is a big issue.
2. the satisfaction of working on an am-mature sound project.

Anyways, thanks for the links, the cort looks promising and I might buy it. But I still got the urge for building the "contraption".
Build it by all means. It will be a learning experience. But dont expect it to sound good.
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Old 24th April 2012, 16:16   #9
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post

Either get the mids repaired, or replace the entire component system. Both options that I have suggested are cheaper than your current option.

Cheers,
Sam
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
the 6030 (I am told) is more laid back than the 693. Some like this, some dont. Listen and learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
1. The 6030 in my view should outperfrom the Pioneer 1604. I say this not becuase I have heard both but I have heard the 6010 and 6020 and may 6" Pioneers and in all cases the Infinity was more refined and had less listening fatigue than the Pioneers.

2. Do not mix crossovers from one system with drivers from another. Unless you know exactly what you are doing or are willing to accept mixed results you should stick to using the crossover that came with that system.
Thanks to both of you guys, I guess i will go for Infinity in the fronts too, so that I have a similar system, considering the rear speakers are infinity kappa.

I got a quote of 11.5K for a set of KAPPA60.9CS, should i wait till next months salary or go for reference series right away, which is around 7.5K?

Anyways, I guess I am going to stick with Infinity for the time being.

Last edited by glidealong : 24th April 2012 at 16:22.
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Old 25th April 2012, 11:29   #10
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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I got a quote of 11.5K for a set of KAPPA60.9CS, should i wait till next months salary or go for reference series right away, which is around 7.5K?
Value is only something you can percieve. There is a 4K difference (50% more) but it is diffcult for us to tell you if that difference equates to a similar4 increase in performace since the parameters are subjective.
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Old 28th April 2012, 20:33   #11
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

I think i will ditch the kappas and might go for Infinity's Primus - Harman Int. launches premium automotive speakers| Zigwheels.com , which is available at around 8K. The spec says 3 Ohm impedance with 80w rms which should help extract more power from the amp compared to a 4 ohm system. The kappas are specified at 2 ohm impedance, but the look of the tweeters is too ugly(in your face) and probably the sound would also be. Moreover the price is above 10k, just another reason to ditch it.

Another contender is Hertz ESK 165, only concern is the 4 ohm impedance.

One of my concerns that i want to address is the sound stage which went to the back of the car, after the installation of amp and the 6x9 kappas in the parcel tray is overpowering the front components. Hopefully the replacement would help me bring back the sound stage to the front.

Probably it would be on this May day, will let you guys know how it all went, the replacement and the contraption. Please dont hold back any comments.

Last edited by glidealong : 28th April 2012 at 20:39.
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Old 30th April 2012, 14:13   #12
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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... Another contender is Hertz ESK 165, only concern is the 4 ohm impedance. ...
Have you auditioned those? Your main concern should not be 2Ω / 4Ω, rather how they sound to your ears.

You might have to crank up the volume a bit for a 4Ω speaker sound as loud as a 2Ω speaker (3Ω actually), but you will be repenting your decision if the sound turns out to be something that you don't like - even without comparing with another brand/model. That is something you will find difficult to reconcile to.

Also 2Ω/4Ω will not make much difference in bringing the image to front - you also have to look at the Sensitivity figure, really influences apparent loudness. Your Kappa ovals at the back are more sensitive than the fronts, perhaps - which is pulling the image to the rear. Having an amp makes it easier since you can set different gains for front and back.
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Old 1st May 2012, 16:34   #13
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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Have you auditioned those? Your main concern should not be 2Ω / 4Ω, rather how they sound to your ears.
Yes, just back from audtion and installed Infinity Primus PR6500CS.

I tried out Hertz, it sounded very plain, the woofer had just enough midbass, a plain mid range and a smooth tweeter. The frequency response was from 60Hz to 22KHz. The tweeter is extremely small. It is hard to find out whether the tweeter was actually working by listening to the setup, i would call it subtle. The mdf spacer rings on the door panel were not suiting the hertz to go in completely, so I actually auditioned it half way in. Apparently Energy series doesnt come with speaker wires and I tested it with the existing wiring.

Now I moved over to Infinity Primus and looks like its lighter than the kappa series and the jbl gto series equivalents. The sensitivity mentioned was the same as hertz, though i am not sure if those are made up values ~93db. The tweeters are mentioned as textile tweeters and looked cute, when compared to the gto tweeters, they were smaller. The package had 3 different setup to mount the tweeters and has the provision for slight adjustment of the tweeter angle(<10deg). I put it on the A pillar and it looks like 2 moles on the 2 sides of the swifts white pillar cover, with infinity logo. The downside, I have 2 holes in my pillar cover, which means, if I have to change the system, there would be 2 gaping holes on the pillars!!! Will try to post a pic.
At 3Ω its stated at 80W RMS, which is closer to my amps capacity. The speaker fitted perfectly into the mdf rings and they came with speaker wires included. Now the most important difference, the sound. Obviously the infinity was louder than the hertz and had greater midbass response. The midrange is nothing to write home about. The TWEETERS - i thought textile tweeters were mild when compared to metal tweeters, but this one just bleeds. The first thing that you will notice with your eyes shut, is the highs and the direction is very apparent. Its definitely overpowering. Reminded me of some autorickshaws that I had travelled in. I used to have my Highs at +4 around 12KHz till date, but with these I cant go past 0. I am not sure if it's harsh,but the Ss does sound like S and not a mangled "CH"", if you know what I mean. Overall, its good midbass, ordinary mids and super crisp highs. The frequency response is from 50Hz to 22KHz.

Summing it up, Hertz sounded neutral and plain, whereas Infinity sounded colored, if you read the above, you will understand the details. Hertz might be good for the 800rs premium for those who love a laid back neutral sound, but for 7.5K I guess I am satisfied with the GTO replacements as its pretty much the same sounding, but a better and more evident tweeter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post

Also 2Ω/4Ω will not make much difference in bringing the image to front - you also have to look at the Sensitivity figure, really influences apparent loudness. Your Kappa ovals at the back are more sensitive than the fronts, perhaps - which is pulling the image to the rear. Having an amp makes it easier since you can set different gains for front and back.
Yeah, the kappas are stated at 2Ω whereas the GTOs as mentioned by Sam was actually around 3Ω. The new infinities sounds much the same as the GTOs - loudness wise and its stated to be 3Ω. The hertz with 4Ω was noticeably less louder.

Even now after setting the front channel gain higher than rear in the amp and setting the HU Fader at F2, the kappas are more evident than the Primus. Probabaly, I should have gone for the 11K Kappa components, but I didnt like the look of the tweeters in them, bulky and shiny. yuck.

I did feel a lack of rich midrange, with my current eq and the first thing i looked for after the installation is a sound processor to get better control with a 12 band PEQ and timing controls to improve the imaging. But the Audison equipment they had in stock costs around 21K. So it has to be sometime later.

Last edited by glidealong : 1st May 2012 at 16:50.
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Old 1st May 2012, 17:05   #14
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

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... installed Infinity Primus PR6500CS.
...
Even now after setting the front channel gain higher than rear in the amp and setting the HU Fader at F2, the kappas are more evident than the Primus. ...
Good for you!

You haven't tuned the system yet.
* Start by setting the volume at the HU so that in the rear seat you can hear it comfortably, but in the front seat you cannot hear it that loud. Fader 0 at HU, Front gain 0 at amp, Sub gain 0 at amp.
You have not mentioned a sub anywhere, so if your rears are also on amp, set the Rear gain till the rear volume is comfortable in rear seat but in front seat it is low
* Now sit in the front seat and bring up the front gain (don't change volume from the previous step) till you hear fronts slightly louder than the ovals (compare voice, not bass - bass gives a misleading loudness). Be patient and do it slowly
* Double check front and rear at different volume settings - they should now sound proportionate
* If you had/have a sub, now is the time to set it's gain. Correct point is when you just hear it, but if it is any lower you feel it is not there
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Old 1st May 2012, 23:14   #15
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Default Re: Replacing blown 2Ω mids in a component system with 4Ω mids

Just done a 2 hour drive with the new setup and there is some improvement in the overall SQ. The tweeters are not really harsh, but very crisp at High 0 setting itself. I tried with the same cd that i been playing for last 2 days and it sounds richer now. Not sure if its the aged jbl gto or better infinity primus with new wires that yields the better listening experience, Dido does sound much more open and natural, definitely the timbre has improved - there is better separation of the various instruments and even the tonal quality of the vocals is more apparent. The Ts, the Fs, the Chs, etc are much more realistic now and even the midrange is richer/audible than the jbl gto 607c. For me, the overall tone is much more warmer and I am enjoying it.

There is marked improvement in midbass, noticeable improvement in midrange and phenomenal improvement in the highs.

Last edited by glidealong : 1st May 2012 at 23:36.
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