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Old 27th August 2013, 15:17   #61
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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... So you're saying that the inner most layer has to be damped? The portion just behind the outside of the door?
Yes, the inside of the outermost panel. That brings in the most vibrations via suspension and door hinges. As built, it has a bit of damping, but this is quite insufficient.

The induced road noise spans the lower mid band in sound. "Punch" is felt from the harmonics that appear in music - unfortunately in the same band! One feels / hears the absence of punch, but one doesn't feel / hear the presence of noise.

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Old 27th August 2013, 16:14   #62
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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Yes, the inside of the outermost panel. That brings in the most vibrations via suspension and door hinges. As built, it has a bit of damping, but this is quite insufficient.

The induced road noise spans the lower mid band in sound. "Punch" is felt from the harmonics that appear in music - unfortunately in the same band! One feels / hears the absence of punch, but one doesn't feel / hear the presence of noise.
Okay I get what you mean, and I did ask my installer regarding the damping, but he said, once we open up the door panel, there is a metal frame with the holes for the speakers etc. and that's where the damping has been done.

This is something I had witnessed myself when the front component speakers were being installed.

Please have a look at the 2 photos attached. One shows the front door and the other shows the rear shelf with the JBL 959 and some damping.

My installer says the metal frame on the door can't be removed, and so the inside most layer of the door can't be damped! I didn't know whether it was right, but he is a very honest fellow, so it kind of seemed right when I visualized the front door panel during installation the other day.

Update: Today I went back to him and was discussing the door damping with him and that's when he told me the inner most layer couldn't be damped. He also sat and tuned the system from scratch and sound seems to have improved now. I gave him 30-40 mins to do his stuff and I was away. Once he was done, he called me and we went out for a drive to check the sound on the move. It has improved, but still not 100% satisfying.

When I checked with my previous installer on the phone (the one who did the FLI Audio 100W RMS amp, Morel Maximo 6x9 and Morel Maximo 6.5 inch components in my Getz in 2011), he said for the same money, a much better job could have been done with better equipment, excluding the head unit.

I am gonna test out this retuned setup for a few days this week and then decide what needs to be done. Worst case scenario, I might have to push off the 6x9s and front comps plus the Boston amp, and go for some better equipment which is not too much more expensive than what I spent. Trying my best to avoid this though.

Please do give me your views on the front door damping. Is my installer right in saying the inner most layer can't be damped?
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Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K-20130813_174201.jpg  

Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K-20130813_140130.jpg  

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Old 27th August 2013, 17:14   #63
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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... Is my installer right in saying the inner most layer can't be damped?
Where he has put damping actually doesn't really need damping. Each of the large holes has a lip / stiffener, which breaks up the vibrations.

It takes a bit of contortion of the arm, but ... it is as simple as rolling the window up, putting arm through the large holes, and pasting the damping sheet (with the backup plastic sheet removed) on the inside and pressing with hand or roller so that the sheet sticks well. Before applying, the installer should take a clean rag and clean the surface with a bit of petrol or spirit - any dust or grime that might prevent the sheet from sticking will be removed.

The screws that have been used to mount the 6x9 ovals seem to be wrong - the screw head is too large, and the heads are too close to the rubber surround. One can make out they have been forced into place, since the heads are pointing slightly in all directions, instead of being straight up vertical.

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Old 27th August 2013, 20:34   #64
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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Where he has put damping actually doesn't really need damping. Each of the large holes has a lip / stiffener, which breaks up the vibrations.

It takes a bit of contortion of the arm, but ... it is as simple as rolling the window up, putting arm through the large holes, and pasting the damping sheet (with the backup plastic sheet removed) on the inside and pressing with hand or roller so that the sheet sticks well. Before applying, the installer should take a clean rag and clean the surface with a bit of petrol or spirit - any dust or grime that might prevent the sheet from sticking will be removed.

The screws that have been used to mount the 6x9 ovals seem to be wrong - the screw head is too large, and the heads are too close to the rubber surround. One can make out they have been forced into place, since the heads are pointing slightly in all directions, instead of being straight up vertical.
Oh my. What a mess. So my previous Getz audio installer was so right. He said it is tough work damping the inner most door panel, but it has to be done. He said he had damped both the inner most panel and the outside (as shown in my photo), in my Getz. No wonder the sound was so good in my Getz.

A professional audio installer IS superior after all. And how it has been proven in my case.

As for the screws, I am noticing this only after you mentioned it in your reply! Goodness. These are not things I should be noting and telling the installer to take care of. These should be done properly by themselves.

I now feel I've made a big mistake by going to this installer for my Verna's audio setup. These guys are excellent in doing up interiors, seats etc as I got both my cars done here. Wanted to give them a chance for the audio this time, but what a screw up it has been.

Thanks for pointing these out DerAlte. Really appreciate it.

Query on the head unit: Have you heard of USB issues with the Kenwood 7016 or 8016BT? The distributor from whom my installer had purchased the 8016BT initially, had called up to inform that after the USB issues with my head unit, they opened up 3 more sealed packs that they had with them to check, and all of them had the same problem. So totally they had to send back 5 units of the 8016BT to Kenwood India, or the importer in charge. Nippon Audiotronix I guess.

But for this issue, I would have gladly retained that head unit. I simply loved it. The JVC is so bare bones in terms of functionality of the remote. Quite frustrating at times. For every audio setting, display settings etc I HAVE to use the head unit to do it. Nothing can be done from the remote! How can they even design a remote like that? Really beyond my understanding. Even my 3 year old Pioneer 7250SD unit in our Santro, has a superb remote.
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Old 28th August 2013, 11:29   #65
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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... Query on the head unit: Have you heard of USB issues with the Kenwood 7016 or 8016BT? ...
Yes and no. I have x994 which is almost identical to the 8016BT. Overall most brands of pendrives work, a few do give problems. Sometimes (randomly) some files are not recognized - something to do with read failures. Right now I am using a Moser Baer 16GB pendrive - seems to work without problems.

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... The distributor from whom my installer had purchased the 8016BT initially, had called up to inform that after the USB issues with my head unit, they opened up 3 more sealed packs that they had with them to check, and all of them had the same problem. So totally they had to send back 5 units of the 8016BT to Kenwood India, or the importer in charge. Nippon Audiotronix I guess. ...
Do you believe they have really done that? I doubt it - that is really nice BS to placate you, and nothing more.

No distributor anywhere in India *ever* opens the original packaging and takes the initiative in checking technical issues. a. They don't have facilities for checking (one has to have a jig to connect wires and power it, right?) and b. They don't have people who can do it (the distri is a trader, not an installer). No one will buy pieces with opened original packing, and Kenwood India will not take back pieces unless it has been sold and found not to be working.
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Old 28th August 2013, 16:14   #66
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Hmm not sure about that. My installer actually got the call from his distributor when I was around. That's all I know. And the fact was that 2 units of the 8016BT had the same issues with my pen drive even though my drives were playing perfectly in a Pioneer 5590 double din and an i20 factory system.
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Old 10th September 2013, 13:30   #67
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Default Re: New ICE in my Verna Transform SX 2010 -- Tuning Issue?

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Please do give me your views on the front door damping. Is my installer right in saying the inner most layer can't be damped?
Its good to damp the doors, not for improving the sound, but for reducing the road noise and to prevent any resonance due to the thin large metal sheet. Most of the car speakers are built for IB installations and can give a better performance compared to its sealed box design. The basic thing in an IB is to prevent the front waves from interfering the back waves of the speaker.

Issue1 : From the 1st picture, the installer is not closing the holes of the inner panel, its a must for an IB installation. Damping the outer shell can be done once this basic step is proper.

Issue2: Replace the back speaker screws asap as it can damage the rubber surrounds.
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Old 10th September 2013, 22:35   #68
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... From the 1st picture, the installer is not closing the holes of the inner panel, its a must for an IB installation. Damping the outer shell can be done once this basic step is proper...
??? Errr ... Don't you think that covering those holes is not going to achieve IB, considering that damping material covering the hole would just be a membrane transparent to sound? It's predecessor - the OE plastic vapor barrier - didn't also contribute positively or negatively to the IB equation, right, with the OE speakers?
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Old 11th September 2013, 00:59   #69
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Default Re: Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K

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Don't you think that covering those holes is not going to achieve IB
Wrong...As I had mentioned, the basic step for an IB setup is to separate the back and front waves, but with the available options it can be done to a great extend. Please google to find more info on advanced IB installations.

An extract from the HAT UNITY advanced installation guide:

With the OEM speakers removed, we HIGHLY recommend the use of a self-adhesive damping product, such as brand names Dynamat®, B-Quiet®, RAAMmat®, and others. The reason for the use of damping material is to quiet buzzes and rattles that will be exposed by the high-performance Unity midbass speakers, but more importantly to seal up door accesses and cavities, thereby creating a pseudo “enclosure” for the Unity midbass. If the midbass are installed immediately adjacent to a large access hole or opening in the door panel, there will be an acoustic “short circuit” (as described later in “Frequency Response”) where the front and back waves of the speaker meet, and cancellation will occur, seriously affecting midbass output. The useof a good damping product is the single-biggest installation-related improvement you can do to enhance the performance of your Unity audio system.
And since the Unity midbass require an “infinite baffle”, it is intuitive to seal up the mounting areaas Unity User’s Manual ©Hybrid Audio Technologies Page17 of 26 best as possible, such as in the door, allowing thespeaker to “see” a large enclosure in the door cavity, kick panel, dashboard, or wherever you decide to mount the Unity midbass.
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Old 11th September 2013, 12:01   #70
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Default Re: Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K

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Wrong...As I had mentioned, the basic step for an IB setup is to separate the back and front waves, ...
Separating front wave from the back wave is the right thing to do, but you are ignoring a big factor: wavelength. Look up Open Baffle Speakers, a constrained case of Infinite Baffle speaker mounting, where the baffle size is a factor of wavelength.

Do you think the original designers (they are Acoustic Engineers) were fools that they didn't know the concepts of speaker mounting? And didn't account for the large gaping holes in the inner metal layer with only an acoustically transparent plastic sheet covering them? There is proper physics behind it, and such things shouldn't be generalized with empirical considerations.

To prevent the front wave from meeting back wave, the speaker either touches the door pad behind the grill, or is mounted on it. It then really doesn't matter how many holes are there and how large they are, since one doesn't normally listen with the doorpad taken off.

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... Please google to find more info on advanced IB installations ...
Some of us need to use Google only when we forget a formula! There are a few here who can write text books in Acoustics and Sound Engineering, and teach at Masters level. Perhaps it will help if you actually look at some installations, instead of just relying on Google.

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Old 11th September 2013, 12:26   #71
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Default Re: Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K

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There is proper physics behind it, and such things shouldn't be generalized with empirical considerations.
I am not here to change anyone's perception or prejudices.

Dumbfounded, sir. I had posted an extract from the HAT installation guide. You mean to say that the people who had designed the speakers themselves doesnt know anything and recommend something for their business gain?
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Old 11th September 2013, 14:28   #72
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Default Re: Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K

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... You mean to say that the people who had designed the speakers themselves doesnt know anything and recommend something for their business gain?
Keep reading such dissemination from different brands, and since you know the subject, you will be able to differentiate between marketing hyperbole and technology.

If one reads that statement differently, like in the story "Emperor's new clothes" it lays the blame of not being able to perceive the higher bass causing "buzzes and rattles that will be exposed by the high-performance Unity midbass speakers" squarely on the User. "You didn't hear the soooper bass from HAT speakers? Your fault, you didn't damp". Heh heh even 'terrible' OE speakers will give great bass output if one damps the outer metal of the doors.

Sure, the damping part is technically correct for not just removing rattles from the higher bass, but from road noise as well - which actually masks the midbass output in the 60-200Hz region. The "pseudo “enclosure” for the Unity midbass" is hyperbole - which even many technology-knowledge-challenged installers to do, because 'people say it works'. Who 'people'???

Have you heard such expressions from JBL, Infinity, DLS, Rainbow, JL Audio, Focal etc.? At least they have proper R&D facilities, even if their products are assembled in China. Does HAT have that?
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Old 11th September 2013, 15:32   #73
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Default Re: Verna SX : ICE options for ~75K

As far as i understand they meant that an enclosure which is infinite by "pseudo enclosure" which is nothing but an IB and this theory is not limited to any particular brand of speaker but all IB speakers (most car speakers). Its nothing but an installation method. Anyways, I dont want to waste my time on something which is very simple to understand \ can implement by following its basic rules and dont want to derail this thread further. I giveup Let the OP decide what to do.
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