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Old 21st April 2006, 20:55   #1
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Default Finally getting down to some ICE for my car

Finally, I think I'll be getting down to setting up a sql setup for my car. Although most of it is still in the planning stages, I think I have finalized some of the stuff.

For the fronts and the rears I'll be using the Coral Performa series component speakers. The image in the link shows just the 6.5" woofers. The tweeters and the crossovers are sold in seperate boxes, and work as a matched set. The cone is carbon fiber and the motor system employs a high-Bl design. Hence the whopping magnet. They go low, and can still handle some good watts.

http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?i...erforma9ci.jpg


For the subs, I'm going the LBM way (I realize that I can't buy anything from the market that will fit my budget and deliver the performance I desire) . I'm having 2 of them custom made with one-piece aluminium cone, double stacked magnets, a progressive spider, a severely bumped t-yoke bottom plate, fat rubber surround and a die-cast aluminium chassis. The impedance woul be dual 2 ohms so I can run 2 subs off a monoblock amplifier driving a 2-ohm load. I still have to finalize some motor system details to arrive at the specs I desire. Here's a pic of just the cone and the chassis.

http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dbasket5nq.jpg

Will post some amplification details soon as I think about it. Wish I could do some tubes for the speakers.

The only thing that bugs me is the head unit. Just cant think of something nice (and affordable!). I saw a Macintosh I wanted to buy, but then I would have had to sell my car ...and still put in some money!!!
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Old 22nd April 2006, 01:10   #2
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B&T,

if you making that woofer make some for me too.

You have to really know what you are doing. Watch Mms. also with Aluminum you can expect some ringing. Look how Jordan and ScanSpeak resovled that issue also with a cone that large ringing will hit you in the midrange where the ear is esp. sensitive.

BTW where you getting the parts!

Coral also makes a TDK 165 which includes a matched tweeter and is more affordable. and how you getting coral in india? never seen them here or in the US. mostly in EU.
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Old 22nd April 2006, 11:28   #3
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hey B&T look some one will surely say `now he is not satisfied with his car now he will make a new car and will have problem with registration` , hehehehehe , just joking. Will be eager to see ur creation, and appriciate it also not make jokes out of it.
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Old 22nd April 2006, 12:07   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
...The only thing that bugs me is the head unit. Just cant think of something nice (and affordable!). I saw a Macintosh I wanted to buy, but then I would have had to sell my car ...and still put in some money!!!
B&T... Get the Clarion HX-D2 (DRZ9255). We have the McIntosh MX406 HU and we also have the HX-D2 in two of our cars. The Clarion uses the same transport but thats where the similarity ends. That said, it has incredible sound and for the money, there is little that comes close to the HX-D2.

In the lower end, audition the Kenwood KDC-8529, great HU for 19K with bill & 30 month warranty. In Alpine the 9835 and the 7998 would be HUs I would look for.

Last edited by gunbir : 22nd April 2006 at 12:14.
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Old 22nd April 2006, 12:16   #5
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The woofer looks superb. How does it sound? How much?
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Old 22nd April 2006, 16:30   #6
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B&T : looking forward to make the sub the project sounds very interesting

all the best.

keep us posted
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Old 22nd April 2006, 23:13   #7
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all the best....do tell us how it all went! (money and sound). go the LBM way, too good system....
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Old 23rd April 2006, 16:27   #8
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We have McIntosh MX5000 (not MX-406) which we use along with MDA-5000 DAC as a Source...with MCD-5000 CD Changer. Thats just the front end .

B&T the cone of the sub in the picture looks similar to Audiobahn ?
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Old 23rd April 2006, 20:40   #9
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Quote:
B&T,

if you making that woofer make some for me too.
Sure thing Navin, I'll make a couple extra. Your views would be very valuable.

Quote:
You have to really know what you are doing. Watch Mms. also with Aluminum you can expect some ringing. Look how Jordan and ScanSpeak resovled that issue also with a cone that large ringing will hit you in the midrange where the ear is esp. sensitive.
Umm yeah. I had done a project in college which used some magnetic transducers so I'm decently familiar with the subject. As far as the actual assembly and some other serious manipulation is concerned, I've somehow managed to convince Peerless to spare some valuable time for this poor cash-strapped boy (Boy it pays to have friends in that organization ) High Mms sure is a worrying issue since it has a cascading effect on things like Fs and especially sensitivity. I have selected a lighter variant of the cone and I thought it wasn't as heavy as some of it's other aluminium counterparts. But I have some alternate cone-surround assemblies handy just in case. Ringing should not happen in my opinion since I'm going to lacquer the cone to damp it. But I'm hoping the weight addition won't be too much. Also, the lacquer is going to molest my cone's heat dissipation ability, so that's a bit worrisome.

Quote:
The woofer looks superb. How does it sound? How much?
Vivek, do you mean the woofers of the Coral comps or the subwoofer? The Coral woofers are drop-dead gorgeous and I have practically stolen them considering the price I have paid. I was initially deciding between a Canton component set and the Illusion Audio Carbon series. The former was a 3-way so I didnt pursue it when I saw the Corals, and the Illusions were beyond my skimpy budget. The subwoofer is not complete. It's just a cone kept on an unpainted basket. Even the magnet is not around and that's going to be a big, high Bl ferrite monster.

Quote:
We have McIntosh MX5000 (not MX-406) which we use along with MDA-5000 DAC as a Source...with MCD-5000 CD Changer. Thats just the front end .

B&T the cone of the sub in the picture looks similar to Audiobahn ?
I can't find the MX5000 on their site, and I don't want a cd changer (read as: can't afford it!). Is MX5000 like a MX 406 with mp3 playback? . Kidding! Whatsit cost? Please be careful quotng numbers, I am regarded as a high-risk cardiac subject!! I'm plain bored of Alpines and wanted something nice. Maybe I'll use an Alpine temporarily till I save up the dough. Anyone have a scoop on this 2-din Panasonic HU with a brushed Aluminium faceplate and a tube section? Another option would be a used Eclipse.

The cone is like an older Audiobahn linear compression series, but not similar in the sense that the Audiobahns sported a 2" foam surround, and this has a 1-1/4" rubber surround so there's a bit more cone surface put to task. It's closer to the Eclipse SW9122.
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Old 23rd April 2006, 21:09   #10
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I have a feeling taht this thread is gonna haev too many F's and M's and maths and physics and mech thingies

Newbies and rest liek poor me watch out!
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Old 24th April 2006, 09:49   #11
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I was referring to the compo woofer. Nice surround on the sub driver.
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Old 24th April 2006, 10:46   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
Sure thing Navin, I'll make a couple extra. Your views would be very valuable.

I've somehow managed to convince Peerless to spare some valuable time for this poor cash-strapped boy

High Mms sure is a worrying issue since it has a cascading effect on things like Fs and especially sensitivity. I have selected a lighter variant of the cone and I thought it wasn't as heavy as some of it's other aluminium counterparts. But I have some alternate cone-surround assemblies handy just in case. Ringing should not happen in my opinion since I'm going to lacquer the cone to damp it. But I'm hoping the weight addition won't be too much. Also, the lacquer is going to molest my cone's heat dissipation ability, so that's a bit worrisome.

I was initially deciding between a Canton component set

It's just a cone kept on an unpainted basket. Even the magnet is not around and that's going to be a big, high Bl ferrite monster.

I'm plain bored of Alpines and wanted something nice. Maybe I'll use an Alpine temporarily till I save up the dough. Anyone have a scoop on this 2-din Panasonic HU with a brushed Aluminium faceplate and a tube section? Another option would be a used Eclipse.

The cone is like an older Audiobahn linear compression series, but not similar in the sense that the Audiobahns sported a 2" foam surround, and this has a 1-1/4" rubber surround so there's a bit more cone surface put to task. It's closer to the Eclipse SW9122.
My views? Ouch! I was hoping you guys just dismissed them as an old man ranting.

You must have really been on PI's case. I made some half haearted efforts but found it simpler to import drivers from Zalytron and Madisound (and earlier from Just Speakers and Audio Concpets). It was a lot easier to convince Audio Concepts to ship to India (this was in 94-95 and they had never shipped to India before) than to convince PI.

Aluminum, in fact most metal cones/domes, are fraught with design challenges. Too thin and they resonate and flex and funny ugly stuff happens (just as Ted and Dorreen), too thick and the resoances fall in the audible band, etc. hence so far I have really only been happy with doped paper (esp for DIY). Ted and Dorren are masters of Aluminum cones.

Ted and Dorreen produced a 50mm dia AL cone (to keep the cone light and to reduce flex) with the ability to work from 300Hz to about 18,000Hz, used in pairs or quads they could be used down to 100Hz and then all one really needed was a subwoofer. However cone geometry/topology of the era meant that one got some polar interferance above 8K (esp in the quad config). There have been various impromvents in their designs today using surround technology and laser inferometry has been used to control and/or absorb these resonaces yet most of their cone have been relatively small (I think the largest cone they ever attempted was about 200mm in chassis dia).

Beyond these desings I have not heard a good metal cone. Small (19-25mm) domes (used primarily for HF reproduction) have fared better.

Did you hear the Canton Component set?

Alpines are boring. Too simple a solution heh?

My reasons for choosing Alpine
1. Nak is not what it used to be.
2. Becker and Mcintosh are way too expensive
3. Eclipse is not sold or serviced in India
4. Alpines came with Ipod adapters as far back as 2003.

While MP3s are hardly High Fidelity using EAC/LAME/Wavegain/Accurate rip etc.. one can get a reasonable output from this format. Mate this to a 60GB Ipod and one can store about 8000 songs (about 600CDs) worth in the car and have the ability to call any song in any order.

I have always prefered a rubber surroud to foam. Somehow I have never card for the 2-3" surround woofers with huge Mms (to keep Fs low) and super huge Max and then driven by a Huge magnet. I liken these to Nitro-fueled Dragsters that can really only go fast in a straight line. There are tradeoff i these desigs and I am not willing to accept these tradeoffs so far.

I am quite happy with woofers with surrounds of 19-40mm though. The Xmax is not that great but adequate, the Fs is not really low (cone is lighter) but the bass harmonics are better resolved, the Mms is light enough to keep the cone nimble and heavy enough to damp resonances. Dont worry about cone surface after all that can be reached by using a different cone geometry or larger chassis (there are 14" dia chassis available too).

End of rant. For those who actually read this I thank you for the patience.
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Old 24th April 2006, 13:48   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble
I can't find the MX5000 on their site, and I don't want a cd changer (read as: can't afford it!). Is MX5000 like a MX 406 with mp3 playback? . Kidding! Whatsit cost? Please be careful quotng numbers.
I don't think McIntosh will ever have MP3 playback in their reference HU's.

I have bought a McIntosh MX-5000 2 years back. It is not on their American site as it is not sold there. This unit is distributed limited only in Japan and some eastern countries and is expensive at USD 2000.

For your information apart from MX-406 they had MX-4000 and MX-5000 is the latest one with HDCD decoding. I am using it with MDA-5000 DAC which also has HDCD decoding.

There are lot of differences in between MX-406 & MX-5000 the major being HDCD decoder and ability to cue in-between the tracks (not possible in MX-406 which permits only track change) not to forget better DAC, OP Amps, Transport and SQ.

Check it out at http://www.mcintosh.co.jp/.

Last edited by Autophile : 24th April 2006 at 13:54.
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Old 28th April 2006, 15:13   #14
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Guys, I need some help. I have sorted out specs from a lot of reputed makes but I am not able to decide what sort of T-S paramaters to pursue. Although a sub may seem perfect on paper, it's a known fact that the best judgement lies with people who have heard and critically evaluated a wide range of subs for extended periods of time. I have heard most of the brands but never really had the flexibility to play with them, like using them in a multitude of boxes, trying them in different ported enclosures etc, listen to them for long periods etc.

Brands/ models I have heard and emerged immensely satisfied with are (in no particular order)

1. JL Audio (Just when I thought they couldn't get any better, they sprung us the W7s!)
2. RE (I'll kill for a RE XXX sub, no jokes. The joke however is, which end of that sub goes in first? )
3. Focal (Utopian Blisssss)
4. Illusion Audio (Awesome fleet-footed, quarter-kilo pounders)
5. ID (Arguably, the best subwoofer brand EVER!)
6. Kicker Solobarics (before they went gay, erm.. square)
7. Phase Linear (Only the Aliante please!)

I sure have some all-time favorites above, but I won't let that bias your opinions.

All these guys have parameters all over the place and it's going to take me too much time to research my way through them by individual simulation. And I believe strongly that there is no better substitute for a good pair of ears. So I'm gonna rely on those who have heard any of the above or other great subs for long periods of time and judged them well. Through personal experiences, which of the above would seem a good sub to emulate with the following considerations.

1. My car's an SUV (no last row seats or anything), so it's got loadsa space. I can accomodate a maximum of 3 12s without compromising enclosure size. I don't want to do 15s.

2. I would have about 1 - 1.5 kW of power to feed the subs depending on whether I use 2-3 subs and the consequent impedance. I'm planning to get the subs in a dual 2-ohm config for maximum flexibility.

3. I don't want the bass to be overpowering or something. If I'm using 3 subs, it's just so that the excursion is minimized and the subs are not palpitating at higher output levels. Also, the amplification excesses are purely for headroom. I like my neighbours and will not drive them deaf...and I love myself more than them!

4. I like bass to be natural and flat. I listen to a very wide variety of music. Much of it is also trash. No boom, no stupid bass boost at 45Hz, just touch n go.

5. My 'Mistry' is willing to undertake a ported design project if the driver EBP is over 50.

6. I will undertake the mandatory 'damp your car' procedure.
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Old 28th April 2006, 16:33   #15
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B&T

Interesting post... but before I post a reply (which I'm itching to...) I would like to hear what the others have to say...
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