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Old 11th July 2009, 13:47   #616
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I want to apply another layer on the inner most layer of the door.For that I have remove the layer which is on the outer side of the door!
Will try hot sir gun method! Thanks for suggestion!
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Old 12th July 2009, 19:50   #617
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I have no idea what a can costs.

That is the idea. NK (or any equivalent) + Wurth might offer you the same damping as DE but work out cheaper.

Yes I have used DE more than once. I have aldo used NK and other products.
Sir from what I've seen the spray on dampers are much more expensive than sheets. I have put in a request to find out price and availability of the various spray on dampers available in India.

But from what I've seen in the US the sprays and sludge are always more expensive than sheets, so I doubt that the combo mentioned would be cheaper than DE.

Sir precisely why I asked you that question, I would like to see a personal recount on the different damping materials used, and pros and cons of each if you could.

I apologize if this is too much to ask, but the scientist within makes me experiment, however I don't have any real technical knowledge or vast experience in audio, so I would like some expert opinions.

Regards,
DocG

PS: If any of the other gurus could share their experiences with various damping materials, that would be a pleasure as well. It doesn't matter even if it is something which was created from raw materials and not branded or even if the brand were not represented in India.
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Old 13th July 2009, 10:32   #618
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Sir from what I've seen the spray on dampers are much more expensive than sheets.
I did not pay for the cans I used so really do not know the price. What I liked was that the spray on damping could get into areas where DE, NK etc. cant.
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Old 14th July 2009, 12:45   #619
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Thanks a lot stefanm, Navin, DerAlte for all the information. And DocG for the nice analysis on various brands. I will PM and find out the outlets selling the damping materials. I live in JP Nagar and any nearby dealer info will be beneficial. Dont you get these damping material in JC Road? That area seems to be cheaper than most places.

So... NK, Wurth and Dynamat Extreme are all brands of FG based damping material? Do they also have FRPs? And FRPs are not DIY? Do you need special skill to apply FRPs?

Since I dont want to upgrade my stock speakers, would it make sense that I go for NK which will give me good VFM? DocG's experiment results state that DE is worth only if you plan to upgrade your ICE.

Also, I guess everyone kinda agreed that its best to apply damping material on the inner door cover(plastic) rather than the outer cover(metal) ??? Am I right?
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Old 14th July 2009, 14:48   #620
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Originally Posted by NiTviN View Post
... NK, Wurth and Dynamat Extreme are all brands of FG based damping material? Do they also have FRPs? And FRPs are not DIY? Do you need special skill to apply FRPs? ...
!!! You read too fast, thoda hallu padhne ka, kya?

1. Damping material such as NK, Dynamat etc. are sheets of rubber-based material, much denser and stiffer (at normal temp) than you would normally expect
2. Wurth makes spray-on damping material with synthetic rubber
3. FRP is used to mass manufacture dashboards and door pads, usually grey or beige in color. The bumpers and side cladding on your Safari is also FRP. FRP is not stiff enough, so it acts like a drum skin at certain frequencies
4. Sometimes FG can be used to stiffen FRP - one has to DIY. No special skills are required to do it, only a bit of courage to work with your own hands!

Innermost surface of the door (door pad made of FRP) of Safari benefits the most from damping. There is already a bit of damping on the outermost surface (metal sheet) of a Safari door, but it willl definitely help cut a lot of panel resonance and road noise if one damps it more.
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Old 14th July 2009, 18:00   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiTviN View Post
Thanks a lot stefanm, Navin, DerAlte for all the information. And DocG for the nice analysis on various brands. I will PM and find out the outlets selling the damping materials. I live in JP Nagar and any nearby dealer info will be beneficial. Dont you get these damping material in JC Road? That area seems to be cheaper than most places.

So... NK, Wurth and Dynamat Extreme are all brands of FG based damping material? Do they also have FRPs? And FRPs are not DIY? Do you need special skill to apply FRPs?

Since I dont want to upgrade my stock speakers, would it make sense that I go for NK which will give me good VFM? DocG's experiment results state that DE is worth only if you plan to upgrade your ICE.

Also, I guess everyone kinda agreed that its best to apply damping material on the inner door cover(plastic) rather than the outer cover(metal) ??? Am I right?
Sir the sheet damping material is made either of Butyl rubber (More advanced, newer and more expensive) or bitumen based (older tech, has some drawbacks, but much cheaper)

It all depends on the level of damping you require. Which ever product you choose, you should look at damping both the FRP and the door metal. This will help reduce noise as well as vibrations.

Considering it's a Safari, and those things rattle like hell I'd suggest that you opt to damp the entire car. Yes it will cost in the range of Rs 20,000, but the difference is unbelievable! It is probably one of the most beneficial and rewarding upgrades you could perform on a Safari.

For the underbody of the car, damp under the carpet with sheets and opt for the Wurth underbody damping from TASS.

Your Safari's NVH will be similar to those of the luxury SUVs!

Regards
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Old 14th July 2009, 18:40   #622
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I suppose Noisekill and having the Wurth Spray would do better job. I enquired with Wurth about their underbody treatment which is meant to work against rust, and they quoted Rs.750/L for a rubber based solution and the other one they have is water based cost almost double at Rs.1400/L. I intend to do the underbody treatment mainly for noise insulation. Initially I thought of getting the SecondSkinAudio's Spectrum but getting the 5 gallon works out a lot. So, I suppose Wurth which is available locally should work fine with about 3-4 gallon for complete underbody including tyrewell.

Any idea which one would be the the better choice between the one which is rubber based and the water based? I am advised by Wurth guys to go in for the water based.
I plan to do the doors of Fabia with single layer Noisekill and Wurth spray on it.
As of now it has 2 CLD tiles from Scosche which I plan to retain.

DOCG@ I happen to see the damping work in your vehicle, looks very promising. along with the choice of equipment going in will work beautifully. Would love to audition it.

Last edited by Invinsible : 14th July 2009 at 18:41.
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Old 14th July 2009, 20:11   #623
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Originally Posted by NiTviN View Post
Thanks a lot stefanm, Navin, DerAlte for all the information. And DocG for the nice analysis on various brands. I will PM and find out the outlets selling the damping materials. I live in JP Nagar and any nearby dealer info will be beneficial. Dont you get these damping material in JC Road? That area seems to be cheaper than most places.

So... NK, Wurth and Dynamat Extreme are all brands of FG based damping material? Do they also have FRPs? And FRPs are not DIY? Do you need special skill to apply FRPs?

Since I dont want to upgrade my stock speakers, would it make sense that I go for NK which will give me good VFM? DocG's experiment results state that DE is worth only if you plan to upgrade your ICE.

Also, I guess everyone kinda agreed that its best to apply damping material on the inner door cover(plastic) rather than the outer cover(metal) ??? Am I right?
Ok I had my Safari front doors damped yesterday, i damped the inner and outer metal of the door skins, I used the top version of Sadesigns damping 20sqft, paid Rs2800 for the work, I am running hertz hsk165's in the doors powered by an Genesis profile 4 bridged to 2 channels this amp pumps out 170wrms per channel in bridge mode according to the birth sheet, the speakers are rated at 120wrms, so you can imagine the gains are set fairly low, the sound is simply awsome, the imaging and depth is fantastic. The installer also covered all those access holes in the doors before I had a chance to ask him, we still couldn't find any reason to damp the door card, i still see it as a pointless task, ultimatley it your money and you make your own choice. Also worth noting although this damping material we used is a little heavier than dynamat extreme, the installer who was using this for the first time, remarked on hearing the result that this stuff is almost as good as dynamat extreme we were both well impressed. As they say it's 90% install 10% equipment.

Cheers
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Old 14th July 2009, 21:00   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanm View Post
Ok I had my Safari front doors damped yesterday, i damped the inner and outer metal of the door skins, I used the top version of Sadesigns damping 20sqft, paid Rs2800 for the work
Can you PM details and mention it here as to where you got it done from? and some pics on this damping material if any ?

Thanks.
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Old 14th July 2009, 21:08   #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
I suppose Noisekill and having the Wurth Spray would do better job. I enquired with Wurth about their underbody treatment which is meant to work against rust, and they quoted Rs.750/L for a rubber based solution and the other one they have is water based cost almost double at Rs.1400/L. I intend to do the underbody treatment mainly for noise insulation. Initially I thought of getting the SecondSkinAudio's Spectrum but getting the 5 gallon works out a lot. So, I suppose Wurth which is available locally should work fine with about 3-4 gallon for complete underbody including tyrewell.

Any idea which one would be the the better choice between the one which is rubber based and the water based? I am advised by Wurth guys to go in for the water based.
I plan to do the doors of Fabia with single layer Noisekill and Wurth spray on it.
As of now it has 2 CLD tiles from Scosche which I plan to retain.

DOCG@ I happen to see the damping work in your vehicle, looks very promising. along with the choice of equipment going in will work beautifully. Would love to audition it.
Sir I think that the idea of suggesting the water based damper might be smell when used within the car. It was a common complaint even in sheets in the old days with the bitumen-tar dampers that they used to stink when the car was parked in the hot sun.

I would appreciate if you could PM me the details of where you plan to procure the Wurth spray on damper from. I'd be interested in some 10L of water based damper.

Lastly, you've seen my car? Interesting, and you know of my equipment, even more interesting, as I've kept most of it a secret until now. Hmmm you have PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanm View Post
I used the top version of Sadesigns damping. Also worth noting although this damping material we used is a little heavier than dynamat extreme, the installer who was using this for the first time, remarked on hearing the result that this stuff is almost as good as dynamat extreme we were both well impressed. As they say it's 90% install 10% equipment.
Sir I wonder if you could help arrange a small sample of the sheets used by you, I would love to add it to my little experiment. Sounds like a great product, and if it performs as well as you say it does, and is as cheap as you intimated, then more people should be informed!

Also about the percentages, my personal opinion is a little different, I'd say both are equally important, but by that I mean that both should be the best!
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Old 14th July 2009, 21:42   #626
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Originally Posted by DocG View Post
... Considering it's a Safari, and those things rattle like hell I'd suggest that you opt to damp the entire car. ...
Are you sure? Surely you jest, sire!

My Safari is about 2.5 years old - not a single rattle or squeak. Hardly, if any, complaints on cabin NVH or rattles in Safari anywhere. The 3L diesel plant noise does intrude a bit, but that would need the firewall and front floor-pan to be damped. Some wind howl due to ORVM - but that is after 110kmph into a headwind!
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Old 14th July 2009, 22:34   #627
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Can you PM details and mention it here as to where you got it done from? and some pics on this damping material if any ?

Thanks.
My friend, i had it done at FM Drive in Santacruz(W), Pankaj's contact details are somewhere on the forum, just type in pankajbhai on the search should come up there. Nope didn't bother taking any pics, I wouldn't be able to upload them anyways as i left all my cables at home in Goa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocG View Post
Sir I think that the idea of suggesting the water based damper might be smell when used within the car. It was a common complaint even in sheets in the old days with the bitumen-tar dampers that they used to stink when the car was parked in the hot sun.

I would appreciate if you could PM me the details of where you plan to procure the Wurth spray on damper from. I'd be interested in some 10L of water based damper.

Lastly, you've seen my car? Interesting, and you know of my equipment, even more interesting, as I've kept most of it a secret until now. Hmmm you have PM



Sir I wonder if you could help arrange a small sample of the sheets used by you, I would love to add it to my little experiment. Sounds like a great product, and if it performs as well as you say it does, and is as cheap as you intimated, then more people should be informed!

Also about the percentages, my personal opinion is a little different, I'd say both are equally important, but by that I mean that both should be the best!
I think the stuff is pretty decent, seems to be similar to some of the second skin range, like i said even the installer was suprised at how good this stuff is, as it was the first time he had used the product. I had recently auditioned Vikram_D's set up with full dynamat extreme damping and a comparitavly quieter vehicle and must say this was fairly comparable or the accoustic results that was required. I somehow feel the installer made an error (in my favour) regarding the pricing, but who the hell am i to argue . As for a sample, contact the company direct i'm sure they'll sort you out the chap has even posted 2-3 pages back on this post.

Cheers
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Old 14th July 2009, 22:37   #628
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Are you sure? Surely you jest, sire!

My Safari is about 2.5 years old - not a single rattle or squeak. Hardly, if any, complaints on cabin NVH or rattles in Safari anywhere. The 3L diesel plant noise does intrude a bit, but that would need the firewall and front floor-pan to be damped. Some wind howl due to ORVM - but that is after 110kmph into a headwind!
x2.
I agree to what DerAlte mentioned. Firewall and front floot pan is where one needs to work on incase the engine noise is intruding to the interiors. Also the underbody coating upto 2mm helps against the road noise anywhere above 80+kms.

DOCG@ I had called up their sales office here at New Bombay. The water based coating I mentioned is for the underbody and not for the interior. For interior / doors they have spray cans.
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Old 15th July 2009, 01:09   #629
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Did some research on the SAdesign damping material and found this:
Autocar India Forums: Sound & Vibration Damping
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Old 15th July 2009, 02:01   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Are you sure? Surely you jest, sire!

My Safari is about 2.5 years old - not a single rattle or squeak. Hardly, if any, complaints on cabin NVH or rattles in Safari anywhere. The 3L diesel plant noise does intrude a bit, but that would need the firewall and front floor-pan to be damped. Some wind howl due to ORVM - but that is after 110kmph into a headwind!
Hmm That's funny because a friend had loaned me a Safari 2.2 some time back, and I found the NVH to be extremely high (Maybe I'm too used to sedans like the Accord and BMWs and Mercs)

I currently have the Safari with me as of today, due to the flooding in Mumbai, will check again. Also at the speeds I do on the expressway, the wind noise is too much.

In addition to all of that, I found that there is a quite a bit of tyre noise audible from inside the cabin at cruising speeds.

Also the 3L engine is known to vibrate and be more noisy than the 2.2

In the end I guess it depends on the age and use of the vehicle, the car I'm using now has traveled over 70K KMs in it's short life, and rattles like hell!

: Still stuck at work, damn the floods and rain. On TBHP from the Doctor's Lounge computer . Can't wait to head home tomorrow in the king of the jungle the safari.
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