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Old 4th May 2013, 19:51   #46
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The Service guy is talking utter nonsense. Ask him to show in the Warranty where is the clause about Warranty being void if accessories are added. He knows zilch about electricals and electrical wiring, and even less about Warranty clauses.
Warranty Clauses: Conditions under which the warranty will not be valid include "Parts, mainly electronic parts that have not been approved by the manufacturer i.e Skoda Auto have been installed on the vehicle."
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Old 4th May 2013, 21:10   #47
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Warranty Clauses: Conditions under which the warranty will not be valid include "Parts, mainly electronic parts that have not been approved by the manufacturer i.e Skoda Auto have been installed on the vehicle."
So you think this is the statement that should invalidate the warranty on ICE installation? This sweeping global statement doesn't work for any car manufacturer - there is no corresponding process defined by them, nor does an "Approved Accessories List" exist. Dealer installing something is not the same as having a list of approved accessories. Do they have it?

Also, ICE is a 'system' by itself, not 'Parts' in the context of a car. You put in a K&N filter, alloy wheels or an FFE - one can understand, since they are directly parts that replace the car's functional parts. But not something whose only connection to the car is the Battery.

That statement is deliberately open-ended by the manufacturer. Please ask a Consumer Court's view of the same - anywhere in the world.
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Old 4th May 2013, 22:02   #48
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Also, ICE is a 'system' by itself, not 'Parts' in the context of a car.
Wow! You made a very good point here. I never thought this way but now I also have a weapon under my belt. Thanks for giving the word 'system' which is not a 'part'

But now problem is the clause what VeyronSuperSprt posted which is open ended like you mentioned. This clause can work in any way. If dealer is friendly and customer centric, the claim will be passed even if there are some aftermarket 'parts' are installed in the car but if the dealer is not that customer centric and friendly, they can disprove the warranty claim on behalf of that clause. I have seen both type of examples.

When dealer is hell bent on the clause and doesn't approve the claim, then it becomes very tough to argue and convince them. And if the talk gets harsher then the situation only worsens. This is also what I have seen.

We have to accept that we don't have any proper/effective system in India which can be followed universally all over the country and less said is better about the customer courts and other legal options.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 4th May 2013 at 22:06.
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Old 4th May 2013, 23:05   #49
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

The wiring for installing a stereo is always done by OEM itself in some cases even wiring for speakers is provided, the after-market installers uses the same wiring. Dealers of Skoda and Maruti etc claim that this wiring will have a connector and this should not be cut for installing a after-market audio system. But when you get a car stereo say Pioneer, Sony or any brand fitted from the dealer they have to cut the connectors if at all it is there because it will not fit the after market unit. So there is no truth in saying that fitting a after market Car stereo will void warranty.
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Old 4th May 2013, 23:17   #50
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... But when you get a car stereo say Pioneer, Sony or any brand fitted from the dealer they have to cut the connectors if at all it is there because it will not fit the after market unit. ...
One uses a Harness Adapter - the connector is not cut.
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Old 4th May 2013, 23:24   #51
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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One uses a Harness Adapter - the connector is not cut.
Exactly. This is how I got the stereo fitted in liva. Nothing was cut. If nothing was cut in your car simply get stereo removed and go to a different service center.
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Old 5th May 2013, 01:19   #52
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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So you think this is the statement that should invalidate the warranty on ICE installation?
Yes, I do.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
This sweeping global statement doesn't work for any car manufacturer
All car manufacturers have this clause. This clause is found in all VW Group cars, and they are amongst the largest in the world.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
there is no corresponding process defined by them
The process is described in the warranty brochure.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
nor does an "Approved Accessories List" exist.
Who said so? There is an approved accessory list.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Dealer installing something is not the same as having a list of approved accessories.
That is correct.

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Do they have it?
Yes, they do as I've stated above.

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Also, ICE is a 'system' by itself, not 'Parts' in the context of a car.
“System” in the case of a car is more colloquial use. The right technical term is “part”.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
You put in a K&N filter, alloy wheels or an FFE - one can understand, since they are directly parts that replace the car's functional parts. But not something whose only connection to the car is the Battery.
Oh, that is news to me. Does the system float in the air and is the only connection the battery? Isn’t it screwed onto the dashboard by screws / brackets just like a wheel is screwed on by nuts ? Or a K&N Filter is screwed on by screws or an FFE is bolted on with bolts?

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That statement is deliberately open-ended by the manufacturer.
It is in no way open ended. It is specifically limited to parts supplied by Skoda for the Rapid and that by no stretch of imagination is open ended.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Please ask a Consumer Court's view of the same - anywhere in the world.
Please do so if you still have any doubt.

Last edited by VeyronSuperSprt : 5th May 2013 at 01:21.
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Old 5th May 2013, 21:13   #53
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... This clause is found in all VW Group cars, and they are amongst the largest in the world. ...
So you would judge legality of a statement based on the size of the car company, instead of logic?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... The process is described in the warranty brochure. ...
And what does it say? "Please submit the accessory you want to use for approval"???

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... Who said so? There is an approved accessory list. ...
Could you please post it since you seem to have seen it? Or is it an assumption that it exists, possibly as an indirect inference from the Warranty language?

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... “System” in the case of a car is more colloquial use. The right technical term is “part”. ...
We are definitely not talking of the same thing! I am referring to language used in design and manufacturing w.r.t. BOMs, not what a few installers and people call ICE in some parts of the world.

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... Oh, that is news to me. Does the system float in the air ...
Don't know what caused a bee in your bonnet to attract a sarcastic expression (not something that I said, I am sure), but perhaps you should read up more on the subject first?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... It is in no way open ended. ...
You are either a Skoda dealer, or someone with blind belief that if a large company has stated something, it is a Law. "Approved accessory", Sir, is not the same as "supplied by Skoda", not even "installed by a Skoda dealer"

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... Please do so if you still have any doubt.
You expect others to take responsibility for your lack of knowledge? Very nice.
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Old 5th May 2013, 22:13   #54
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

You are on thin ice here and I think you know that too, as your responses indicate. But anyway, just to humour you, here goes:

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
So you would judge legality of a statement based on the size of the car company, instead of logic?
That would a great idea, but unfortunately, no.

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And what does it say?..
Read up.


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Or is it an assumption that it exists, possibly as an indirect inference from the Warranty language?
No.

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
We are definitely not talking of the same thing!
If you're talking of the latest movie in town, do let me know. I thought we were referring to a warranty discussion on the Skoda Rapid


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Don't know what caused a bee in your bonnet to attract a sarcastic expression (not something that I said, I am sure)..
Maybe, it’s the ole “clutching at straws” syndrome ?

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You are either a Skoda dealer,
Am I ???
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
or someone with blind belief that if a large company has stated something, it is a Law.
Please read response to your first statement. Again.

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"Approved accessory", Sir, is not the same as "supplied by Skoda", not even "installed by a Skoda dealer"
Did I say it was, Sir ?

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...your lack of knowledge...
Oh my! now we're getting into personal attack mode.
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Old 5th May 2013, 22:48   #55
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
All car manufacturers have this clause. This clause is found in all VW Group cars, and they are amongst the largest in the world..
The clause comes into effect when original equipment is tampered with.
I will state two facts here
1. VW group is unethical. They recalled DSG in China but did not do the same in India due to lax laws. They know they are selling something defective, but they choose to act only if the long arm of the law can hit them
2. The warranty clause, esp sweeping ones are found in industrially immature economies. In a mature industrial economy where consumer rights are important, not even VW can give sweeping clauses.
I suggest you read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act
A summary
Quote:
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation's consumer protection agency, says no. In fact, it's illegal for a dealer to deny your warranty coverage simply because you had routine maintenance or repairs performed by someone else. Routine maintenance often includes oil changes, tire rotations, belt replacement, fluid checks and flushes, new brake pads, and inspections. Maintenance schedules vary by vehicle make, model and year; the best source of information about routine scheduled maintenance is your owner's manual.
So forget a simple stereo. You can get your belts changed outside, get all services done outside, yet the manufacturer cannot deny warranty.

But in countries like India, where consumer is a nobody, and the companies have powerful chor lobbies, the consumer is taken for a ride. Not only that, there are people justifying the crooks.

The only reason manufacturers are getting away with such sweeping clauses is that the companies have powerful lobbyists. They will not allow any consumer protection law, or laws pertaining to safety get passed, because India is one of the few markets where they can peddle their junk, and you will have consumers actually defending the junk they bought, because somehow, culturally, its a bigger shame to admit you bought junk.

As any engineer will tell you, a stereo system even when installed after cutting wires, has not connection with power windows. They run of a different line with their own different fuses. So there are two possibilities

1. Skoda India employs engineers who are not actually engineers, but paid money to buy degree. So they do not understand such things, and need to make sweeping generalizations
2. Skoda India is unethical and crook

If you can think of a third possibility, please let us know

Last edited by tsk1979 : 5th May 2013 at 22:51.
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Old 5th May 2013, 23:27   #56
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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You are on thin ice here ... getting into personal attack mode.
Well, well, well!

Perhaps, as expected in any decent discussion, you should substantiate your claims and statements, or forever keep your peace. So far, you have only demonstrated sarcasm, not knowledge.
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Old 6th May 2013, 10:03   #57
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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..you have only demonstrated sarcasm, not knowledge.
Believe me, on occasion, you will find sarcasm far more effective than knowledge.



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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
1. VW group is unethical. 2. Skoda India is unethical and crook

If you can think of a third possibility, please let us know
1. Of course the VW Group is unethical. Why, even their ethical practices are questionable!

2. However, we, as customers have a choice so why buy VW products if we know that they are unethical? Would you fill petrol in a pump if your knew they were unethical, so why do you buy VW products when you know they are unethical ? Obviously, there is something that still draws many to their products despite this knowledge.

3. Having bought an unethical company’s product, you can follow their warranty procedure in the hope that your claims will be treated in a slightly better manner than if you didn’t follow the procedure.

4. Or instead, you can opt not to follow their warranty procedure and then have an argument with the dealer, fight with the company, take up the matter with the consumer courts, debate the issue on this and other forums, spoil your peace of mind, waste your time and money, start cursing your car, the dealer, the company and the whole automotive experience.

5. We have seen what members on this forum have gone through after years of going to the consumer courts with what is clearly a wrong doing on the part of the dealer/company. Can any of us do anything about it other than put up posts about how unethical the company is? In the end that team bhp member has been left alone to suffer his problems.

6. So, do you advise team bhp members to look at logic and consumer courts and fight with the dealer or simply follow the warranty procedure so as not to land in trouble?

Option 3 above is clearly the way to go in the current Indian context, unless someone has the time, money and the inclination to spend time in consumer courts rather than enjoy his car.

And that is why I had started the thread - 7 Simple Guidelines if you're buying a European Car

I quote the relevant clause 5 from that below:

"5. This is the most important one - Avoid Accessorizing Your Car – avoid ICE upgrades, reverse parking sensors, extra lights, change of original lights, change of horns, sun control films, seat covers (where the seats and pads have to be removed to fix them) etc even if the accessories are the original ones. Satisfy yourself with what is available in the higher variant and stick to the stock car. This will help improve the reliability. If you cannot do without accessories, then it is better to avoid a Skoda."
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Old 6th May 2013, 10:43   #58
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Major Update :

Just received a telephone call and Email confirmation from, Skoda India. They have agreed to replace the power window motor AS PER WARRANTY Policy. As am travelling will meet the dealer on Wednesday. Will provide the details thereafter.

Thanks for all your support.
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Old 6th May 2013, 11:00   #59
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Believe me, on occasion, you will find sarcasm far more effective than knowledge. ...
The ends don't justify your means. If your sarcasm only distances others, that is not effective on a discussion forum. You are free to follow your principles in your private life - please don't forget this is a community with conventions quite different from those principles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... 2. However, we, as customers have a choice so why buy VW products if we know that they are unethical? ...
That is a very big assumption - that everyone knows. Public knowledge of such things is very limited. The same goes for a petrol pump.

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... in the hope that your claims will be treated in a slightly better manner than if you didn’t follow the procedure. ...
Amusing logic. Not everyone follows your values. India followed the same logic in foreign affairs in the late 50s and early 60s - the results are well known.

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... In the end that team bhp member has been left alone to suffer his problems. ...
In case you haven't noticed in your fervour for your own p-o-v, all members are given ALL possible practical options as advice by the TBHP community. Ultimately it is the member who is responsible for taking action, not the community, since only the affected member has locus standi in the matter. Also, in case you haven't read about it, TBHP discussed the issues of Dealers' malfeasance with Skoda directly in earlier cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
... This will help improve the reliability ...
That is your personal opinion - but quite a technically incorrect one. Reliability of parts and systems in cars is not affected by other parts and systems which don't have a direct bearing on their functioning. If one says window winder motor malfunction was caused by the presence of ICE despite both being on separately fused circuits, one can only wonder about the cerebral abilities of whoever proposed it.

The problem is with maliciousness of the Skoda dealers, since only 2% of them - and all in India - rake up the issue of "approved accessories" without knowing what it means. The rest deal with it very rationally, and don't indulge in one-up-manship. As @tsk1979 pointed out, the primary cause is ignoramuses who man the technical roles in service centers.

In the OP's case, it is the DEALER who has advised Skoda. We are assuming they have actually communicated with Skoda, IF AT ALL, since they are unwilling to open up the discussion including the OP. In reality, A.S.S. don't communicate with Skoda on a day-to-day basis, forget about taking permission for anything.
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Old 6th May 2013, 11:05   #60
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Default Re: Skoda Rapid Warranty Issues: ICE blamed for Power Window Failure

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Originally Posted by veeru27 View Post
Major Update :

Just received a telephone call and Email confirmation from, Skoda India. They have agreed to replace the power window motor AS PER WARRANTY Policy. As am travelling will meet the dealer on Wednesday. Will provide the details thereafter.

Thanks for all your support.
Ha ha!!!
Anyway, save the gloating for now, lets do that after the install!
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