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Old 4th October 2007, 12:37   #796
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
The AC vent is no where near the midrange in any pic. I also tried to place the mid on the AC vent and the tweeter on the top but the mids were on the face in that case...
LBM I think you misunderstood me.

I was suggesting an install where the midrange would be on the door at the asme height as the AC vent and only asked you to check if the AC vent when active (blowing air) would distort the midrange.
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Old 4th October 2007, 12:59   #797
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
LBM I think you misunderstood me.

I was suggesting an install where the midrange would be on the door at the asme height as the AC vent and only asked you to check if the AC vent when active (blowing air) would distort the midrange.
Hmm ok Now I got what were you saying. But that location you suggest would be quite close to the listener and will obstruct the view also...but will consider it anyways as I am available for options
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Old 4th October 2007, 13:14   #798
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My 2 cents.

I have listened your setup with option 1 for few minutes but It was sounding great, So Either stay with option1 or install for option2 and listen for few days than decide because you are not in hurry and dont mind cutting doors and pillars.

Do not go for option3.Unless you want to showoff Dls Midrange.
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Old 4th October 2007, 13:31   #799
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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
LBM, soundstage is not dependent on the tweeter alone. The most crucial part in audio reproduction is midrange.

I am not the only guy in the entire world who does kick panel install. There are thousands of people all across the world and many of them won competiotions using kick install. Google it and see for yourself.

Install is more dependent on what you can do best in a car than what you want to because of restriction of space and driver mounting options.

You will see more cars in future from our side using esoteric speakers in the kick panels because our knees really enjoy soundstage from kick panel location
I know the kick panel is favorite among good SQ installs as we get equal listing distances. nice channel separation and imaging.

I don't want to install in a kick panel first the speakers will go in the floor and dust and foot will be first there to kick the speaker. Thats why I am avoiding it. Also there will be less space on the driver side as the accelerator pedal becomes the problem. And mine is a small car with very less leg space.

And the major installs I have view on the net based on the kick panel design the idea is to aim the speaker to the face of the listener not the center console which if done affect the separation and imaging and the sound stage.
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Old 4th October 2007, 13:32   #800
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Originally Posted by Mugen_Power View Post
... because you are not in hurry and dont mind cutting doors and pillars.

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Old 4th October 2007, 13:35   #801
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Originally Posted by sk456 View Post
I agree on the wholeworld using kick installs... I happned to be at variuos SQ competitons abroad.. Almsot all the winners had kick installs.
but the aiming of the speaker is most important in that case. not that putting the speaker in the kick panel yield good results..
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Old 4th October 2007, 13:53   #802
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Originally Posted by Mugen_Power View Post
My 2 cents.

I have listened your setup with option 1 for few minutes but It was sounding great, So Either stay with option1 or install for option2 and listen for few days than decide because you are not in hurry and dont mind cutting doors and pillars.

Do not go for option3.Unless you want to showoff Dls Midrange.
I would not hurry this time as I wanna get the max for the location chosen this time..And no cutting or such will happen.

Ya I agree the option3 is a little bit of a show off....
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Old 4th October 2007, 14:07   #803
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Originally Posted by panky12345 View Post
but i dont wanna have them on my knees. pardon my ignornace, am not ~SQ~ types, neither i wanna be one.
Panky...

I really suggest you hear the car in question before you proceed to put your foot in your mouth. The soundstage and imaging in the car in question is just fine. I can hear a lot of noise around here about this car. Have you already made up your mind you are going to bash this install (like some others here) or are you still open to learning something? In case its the former, thats fine really. If its the latter, be my guest... let me know when you want to audition this car and then go ahead and form an opinion. There will always be different opinions over such stuff. End of the day, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And there is NOTHING wrong with the way this car sounds.

Last edited by gunbir : 4th October 2007 at 14:10.
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Old 4th October 2007, 16:31   #804
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Originally Posted by panky12345 View Post
@ B&T: bhai mere, i'm a gareeb man having only 2 way comps. waise honestly speaking, the tweeters in my car are hanging with the wires since the day i got them installed (it fell off from the location soon after the install and its like since then, i didnt find time to go back to installer) but i dont wanna have them on my knees. pardon my ignornace, am not ~SQ~ types, neither i wanna be one.

@ JB: your explanation was very good indeed, but i couldn't yet understand the acoustic phase.

@ SK: theres a fellow TBHPian here who has won 3rd position in Db drag with his 200W MTX 2 channel amp and a Cervin Wega 12" sub; Pio site claims that it has world record for SPL using that 5000W wala monster sub.
That doesnt mean that everyone who's a basshead here goes for the above MTX/Wega or Pio. Similarly, all kick installs dont necessarily mean what you call ~SQ~
Panky, we are here talking about SQ installs, there is nothing generic when comes to car audio installs. Installation depends upon various factors like the drivers, crossover slopes, install location etc etc.

How many high end installs have you auditioned and actually compared the different driver mounting locations that you are talking with so much confidence against kick panel install.

Do not say certain things until and unless you are sure of what you are saying especially on a forum where lot of people learn by reading through what other people write.

Phase is the very critical in audio system and it is effected whenever you change polarity (electrical), shift crossover slopes / points, change the driver orientation - firing direction, on axis and off axis location, distance etc etc. Electrically you can only shift the phase by the order of 180 Deg by inverting the polarity.

Rest all is done at crossovers level components where you can phase align the drivers "acoustically" irrespective of how and where they are mounted. Even these crossovers have their limitations but they work. eg. Hertz Mille, Rainbows, Alpine X types sport these crossovers.

Exact alignment of phase was only possible in active systems. But that is also tough these days as manufacturers have stopped manufacturing phase shifters. Earlier people like Precision Power used to have electronic phase shifter which offered 0-360 deg continuous phase shifting to align tweeter - mid - bass.

Today apart from Audison VRx amplifiers (with optional PC36 Phase control Module) no one (best to my knowledge) offers phase shifting, even the best of active networks, processors, HU's offer nothing beyond 180 Deg flip.

FYI you do get variable phase in home audio active subwoofers.

Panky I hope you got the funda of the word "phase" and its alignment procedure acoustically, physically and electrically.

Just wanted to ask few questions to you and other fellows on this forum :

What happens when you time align a system ? Why it starts sounding so blended and cohesive?

Why you don't need time alignment in case of expensive speaker set than in case of a cheaper speaker?
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Old 4th October 2007, 16:39   #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
I know the kick panel is favorite among good SQ installs as we get equal listing distances. nice channel separation and imaging.

I don't want to install in a kick panel first the speakers will go in the floor and dust and foot will be first there to kick the speaker. Thats why I am avoiding it. Also there will be less space on the driver side as the accelerator pedal becomes the problem. And mine is a small car with very less leg space.

And the major installs I have view on the net based on the kick panel design the idea is to aim the speaker to the face of the listener not the center console which if done affect the separation and imaging and the sound stage.
LBM your reasoning is right in terms of installation problems and its disadvantages in case of kick panel. But advantages of kick panel offering the best path lengths and absorbing reflections is far more lucrative and overshadows its disadvantages. You cannot do a kickpanel install in every car especially the RHD.

The Rainbow tweeters have huge off axis output and they were obtrusive in soundstage when angled as they tend to beam. Thats why they were not mounted at an angle facing towards the listeners. And they are tuned to perform in a off axis location. So no worries .
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Old 4th October 2007, 17:16   #806
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JB/Gunbir: let me put it straight. neither I'm so knowledgable as you are nor am in any mood to start any issue, you know very well i've never initiated any controversies/like. I am here to learn too! I really dont know why you are getting personal.

If you read carefully....what did I say? B&T told LBM to try out option IV in my car to which I replied that I dont want the placements of tweeter near my knees, reason being neither am "SQ" kinds (read not that professional to work out the difference) nor I wanna be one....means I never was and dont intend to be so professional that I start looking into minutest of details regarding driver placements/TA blah blah rather than enjoying the music while my short stay in the car. I have better things to do.


Since this forum is about discussions, As a layman what I understood as regards kick installs, I replied to SK's post. You tell me the answer if you have regarding my query.

I couldnt understand the word acoustic phase that you mentioned in some other thread, and when LBM wanted to have an opinion, I simply suggested your way. Thats it!

sorry to say, all what I could gather from your reply is:

1. Everybody else here is to learn, except you.
2. On the whole forum, only you've auditioned/installed high end installs.
3. Best brands that offer best features are available with you.

I request you to take my replies the way they are written, please dont try to read in between lines. I'm pretty straightforward and would love to be that way.
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Old 4th October 2007, 17:19   #807
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Guys, come on. That's enough. Please, let's leave this pointless discussion and finger-pointing be and let LBM continue with his car. This is not a generic thread about installation, it is about LBM's install.

LBM, I trust your very next post will be about the install and options.
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Old 4th October 2007, 18:11   #808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Let us leave the sub behind as it is not that important right now...



Firstly you are always in a rush...lol anyways thanks for the comments

And you brain is not at all slow. If you can install in a car then you have a fast brains in terms of audio.

Will be waiting for your comments so that I might gain something from it..
hi lbm,

you asked for an opinion and also wanted me to post the comments on your thread when we met in delhi. since i didnt have enough time to log on, i couldnt post earlier, i did it now.

on the 3ways, i have some pics which iam posting abhi. maybe that helps.

cheers
clip
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Old 4th October 2007, 18:45   #809
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hi again,

i have some pics of das installs etc. maybe you have seen them earlier i dont know. and i dont know the source as well, i think it is from some toyota forums.

these pics are just to give an idea so that all of us can see. maybe these pics are posted earlier but dont know if it has been.






















hope it helps

cheers
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Last edited by clipto333 : 4th October 2007 at 18:56.
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Old 4th October 2007, 18:57   #810
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here is another

twenty characters




and i hope i ddnt add fuel to the fire by posting my opinion on lbms install(sub) it really was a genuine opinion.

and i dont understand the need for such controversies. why oh why? this is a forum, not the end of the world. i agree we learn quite a lot from others but if anyone doesnt want to, its his wish. im not pointing fingers on anyone, its just a general opinion. please stay calm and now lets just focus on lbms install as it is his thread.

Last edited by clipto333 : 4th October 2007 at 19:10.
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