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Old 4th October 2007, 19:16   #811
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Thanks Clip. After seeing these installs I feel like going for the option 3

But then I will need help from some good friends to audition all the 3 locations before finalizing the same. Sam Bhai when are you coming to Delhi...
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Old 4th October 2007, 19:38   #812
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
Thanks Clip. After seeing these installs I feel like going for the option 3

But then I will need help from some good friends to audition all the 3 locations before finalizing the same. Sam Bhai when are you coming to Delhi...
you are welcome lbm, i might come to delhi on the 6th and i would definitely see you in fbd. i would love to hear the different locations and learn something in the process. that will be great.

and sorry its ot but if anyone can help me with the price of head units.

im thinking of either a kenwood 9xxx wit TA or a 9885 alpine. maybe i can stretch to buy a 9887 but i dont know abhi. please let me know the B/w and gray prices. sorr LBM

cheers
clip
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Old 4th October 2007, 19:38   #813
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Originally Posted by panky12345
@ B&T: bhai mere, i'm a gareeb man having only 2 way comps. waise honestly speaking, the tweeters in my car are hanging with the wires since the day i got them installed (it fell off from the location soon after the install and its like since then, i didnt find time to go back to installer) but i dont wanna have them on my knees. pardon my ignornace, am not ~SQ~ types, neither i wanna be one.
Panky Bhai: I never intended to ridicule you. I was just kidding you about the tweeter placement. I hoped you understood it as a mere prank. Pranky with Panky. More power to you and Chamkila. I really gotta try out that stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
I know the kick panel is favorite among good SQ installs as we get equal listing distances. nice channel separation and imaging.
Kick panel is the best location for imaging if one had to generalize, no doubt. It helps curb the effects of path length. And using high quality drivers and proper tuning, the image can be very well centered and sufficiently high.

But thats not where the kick panel story ends. To achieve the full benefits of kick-panel mounted speakers it is necessary that the drivers are arriving to you nice and straight, as much as possible. As Autophile rightly mentioned, reflections are to be avoided and for that they should aim clear of the firewall and more or less, both drivers should arrive as much on axis to the listener from both channels as possible. However, your Swift will not let you do this. You will be hugely off-axis to the closer driver. With a dome midrange and dome tweeter, and maybe with the use of waveguides, you could minimize the effect of being off-axis. But in some smaller cars, you could end up having a portion of the lower dash blocking the path atleast partially on the nearer channel. Hence the reason for my suggestion.

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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
I don't want to install in a kick panel first the speakers will go in the floor and dust and foot will be first there to kick the speaker. Thats why I am avoiding it. Also there will be less space on the driver side as the accelerator pedal becomes the problem. And mine is a small car with very less leg space.
I agree. While you can put a tweeter there, theres not much possiblity of getting the midrange in. Unless of course, you take hydrash, ok's interpretation of Mugen's suggestion and cut out a couple of pillars or doors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
And the major installs I have view on the net based on the kick panel design the idea is to aim the speaker to the face of the listener not the center console which if done affect the separation and imaging and the sound stage.
Well, thats like towing in the speakers in a home audio scenario, in a way. But by a lot of degrees. Its a car so sometimes you gotta live with such realities. Not when you have other options though, and absolutely not if the placement means that you have a driver or two blocked out of the path of your ear while doing that.

In all this confusion, may I meake a humble recommendation. Get yourself a nice Bajaj Autorickshaw. Go with Option 3 using just a 2-way kit, and totally go to town with the imaging. Sorry, I couldn't resist it.
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Old 4th October 2007, 20:34   #814
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Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
In all this confusion, may I meake a humble recommendation. Get yourself a nice Bajaj Autorickshaw. Go with Option 3 using just a 2-way kit, and totally go to town with the imaging. Sorry, I couldn't resist it.
Naughty, naughty. You definitely were not talking to yourself before succumbing to the temptation.
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Old 4th October 2007, 23:27   #815
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Sorry, LBM bhai, I've been busy these days.

All the best, it looks like you're going to place it in position #3.
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Old 5th October 2007, 10:25   #816
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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
Phase is the very critical in audio system..
Exact alignment of phase was only possible in active systems. But that is also tough these days as manufacturers have stopped manufacturing phase shifters..
Well the advent of DSPs might have something to do with that for example a crossover that does it's work in the digital domain introduces no phase shift.

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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
The Rainbow tweeters have huge off axis output and they were obtrusive in soundstage when angled as they tend to beam. Thats why they were not mounted at an angle facing towards the listeners. And they are tuned to perform in a off axis location. So no worries .
It is odd that Rainbow expects the tweeter to be mounted that far off axis (the midrnage and tweeter axis are at 90 deg) for them to sound cohesive.

It would mean that the on axis response is "rising". Are they JB? I have seen some tweeters and wide range drivers with such a response but not in car audio.
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Old 5th October 2007, 10:40   #817
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Naughty, naughty. You definitely were not talking to yourself before succumbing to the temptation.
No Der Alte, B&T has very cleverly converted his Tata Sierra into a Bajaj rickshaw. :-) So now he has a car that is as nimble as the Tata Sierra and has the aesthetics of the Bajaj rickshaw. :-) jest kdding B&T!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble View Post
...However, your Swift will not let you do this. You will be hugely off-axis to the closer driver. With a dome midrange and dome tweeter, and maybe with the use of waveguides,
B&T what do you think of moving the midrange dome higher up on the door to the point where the AC vent meets the door or a bit lower and then putting the tweeter on the A pillar. It will require the least door modification, all 4 drivers will have direct paths (since LBM has a DSP he can use TA to align the left channel to the right) and it still leaves room for alignment. besides both mids and tweeters can be almost on the same plane.

LBM I know you are master of google but do check out Lenard Audio's and Elliot's pages on phase correction and time alignment.

Lenard Audio - Education - X-overs. Time Alignment.
Phase Correction - Myth or Magic

Last edited by navin : 5th October 2007 at 10:43.
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Old 5th October 2007, 11:08   #818
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
LBM I know you are master of google
I thought Raghu was the master of Butter Chicken!
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Old 5th October 2007, 11:34   #819
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Originally Posted by navin View Post
Well the advent of DSPs might have something to do with that for example a crossover that does it's work in the digital domain introduces no phase shift.
I am afraid no. Time alignment does help a little but you cannot match the cpabilities of a phase shifter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
It is odd that Rainbow expects the tweeter to be mounted that far off axis (the midrnage and tweeter axis are at 90 deg) for them to sound cohesive.
Rainbow does not expect that. Its me I put them there based on my hours of listening and trying various location. However Rainbow passive crossover allows you to compensate the off axis and on axis location by jumper settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
It would mean that the on axis response is "rising". Are they JB? I have seen some tweeters and wide range drivers with such a response but not in car audio.
The imaging and soundstage is very good in the car, keeping in mind how narrow Santro is. Until and unless you don't hear the setup yourself you cannot know how it sounds based on installation, driver placement and specs of the equipment used.
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Old 5th October 2007, 11:45   #820
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Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi View Post
I thought Raghu was the master of Butter Chicken!
you forgot Appy fizz!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
I am afraid no. Time alignment does help a little but you cannot match the cpabilities of a phase shifter.

Rainbow does not expect that. Its me I put them there based on my hours of listening and trying various location. However Rainbow passive crossover allows you to compensate the off axis and on axis location by jumper settings.

The imaging and soundstage is very good in the car, keeping in mind how narrow Santro is. Until and unless you don't hear the setup yourself you cannot know how it sounds based on installation, driver placement and specs of the equipment used.
I agree that I have not heard the car. The chances of that happening are small as I do NOT travel except on holiday. My questions are mostly academic, I may be old but it is never too late to learn is it?

When I mentioned DSPs I meant that phase shifters were prevalent becuase analog active crossovers/equallisers introduced phase shift and these phase shifters were needed to compensate. However today with all this happening in the Digital Domain are phase shifters still relevent?

You prefered to use the location to the controls available on the Rainbow crossovers? or were the controls available not adequate? I fear that one day SK or one of his friends/family might kick that tweeter in. I sure hope that day never comes.

I hope you do not find my questions irritating. I am only here to learn.
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Old 5th October 2007, 12:00   #821
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Hmm nice discussion going on here...about off-axis and on-axis anyways there are lots of replies I would try to answer all of them.

Here is a CAD drawing of the mounting on which the midrange and the tweeter will be mounted because I am final that both will be in the same plane that is I am 100 % sure. As today morning I was coming to office I was playing the tweeter face of the driver side only. When i pointed it to myself the image shifted to the center of the dash but when I pointed it to the right side the image shifted to the side of the door from the centre of the dash. One thing I wanna add that I only adjusted the tweeter only not the midrange but the tweeter only changed the imaging.

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Old 5th October 2007, 12:30   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
I am afraid no. Time alignment does help a little but you cannot match the capabilities of a phase shifter.
How many options did you got in the Rainbow passive crossover for phase shift ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
Rainbow does not expect that. Its me I put them there based on my hours of listening and trying various location. However Rainbow passive crossover allows you to compensate the off axis and on axis location by jumper settings.
How did you used phase shifter in the passvie crossover without changing the slopes and gain setting to achieve the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
The imaging and soundstage is very good in the car, keeping in mind how narrow Santro is. Until and unless you don't hear the setup yourself you cannot know how it sounds based on installation, driver placement and specs of the equipment used.
I have heard the car this sunday. I could listen to a few mins as I was in a hurry to get back home. The sound was nice and clean the midbass was tight but what I observed was that the sounstage in sk`s car was quite low below the dash. Even Sk agreed to it. I would like to have a longer session of the same only then I can comment further on it.

I would like to add here that this is purely my opinion on how did the car sounded to me so don`t come after me on this. I have said what I think is correct to my knowledge.
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Old 5th October 2007, 12:32   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
No Der Alte, B&T has very cleverly converted his Tata Sierra into a Bajaj rickshaw. :-) So now he has a car that is as nimble as the Tata Sierra and has the aesthetics of the Bajaj rickshaw. :-) jest kdding B&T!
To be very honest, considering the current state of my Sierra, even an autorickshaw would be a big relief to me. Now if only I could get those valets at the star hotels and clubs to park them for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
B&T what do you think of moving the midrange dome higher up on the door to the point where the AC vent meets the door or a bit lower and then putting the tweeter on the A pillar. It will require the least door modification, all 4 drivers will have direct paths (since LBM has a DSP he can use TA to align the left channel to the right) and it still leaves room for alignment. besides both mids and tweeters can be almost on the same plane.
I think its a good idea. One thing that LBM should also do is to try and get the mid and tweet on one particular side to be at equal distances from the listening position as much as possible since he cannot time align the drivers independently in any other way that I know of and trying and getting the acoustic centers of the drivers as close as possible would be a good starting point. By getting the tweeter as high as the A-pillar and with the midrange also placed high, maybe this could happen. Only a measuring tape can tell.
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Old 5th October 2007, 13:41   #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker View Post
How many options did you got in the Rainbow passive crossover for phase shift ?

How did you used phase shifter in the passvie crossover without changing the slopes and gain setting to achieve the same.

I have heard the car this sunday. I could listen to a few mins as I was in a hurry to get back home. The sound was nice and clean the midbass was tight but what I observed was that the sounstage in sk`s car was quite low below the dash. Even Sk agreed to it. I would like to have a longer session of the same only then I can comment further on it.

I would like to add here that this is purely my opinion on how did the car sounded to me so don`t come after me on this. I have said what I think is correct to my knowledge.
LBM please try and concentrate in reading the posts.

Where did I say that I did a phase shift setting on the crossover. Rainbow crossovers allow you to compensate if tweeter or midrange or both of them are mounted in off / on axis location or any combination of location.

Variable phase shifting cannot be done by altering the slopes. To a cetain extent phase errors are compensated by TA / Delay.

Next time you listen to any car don't judge the soundstage by looking at driver mounting locations. Instead judge the soundstage based on the stage height and depth of musical instruments and vocals.
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Old 5th October 2007, 14:16   #825
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Originally Posted by Autophile View Post
Next time you listen to any car don't judge the soundstage by looking at driver mounting locations. Instead judge the soundstage based on the stage height and depth of musical instruments and vocals.
I was referring to the sound stage height only. I did not said I am judging the sound stage based on driver location, If I was saying based on driver locations I would have said it on the first day when I saw the install. I only wrote it now when I heard the install and after that I commented. Also when I commented the owner him self accept the fact that the stage height is quite low. And he is happy with it. Then why are you running after me on that. If the owner feels that the singer sitting in the lap is ok with him then I dont have any problem.

But then in my opinion the singer should be on the dash singing in the front of the face.

Now please stick to the topic of the thread which is my install or Navin Ji will get angry and I will not get my Appy Fizz and Butter Chicken.
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