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Old 27th May 2013, 10:21   #16
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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... Let me know the Kenwood's model number so I can survey that too. Thanks...
Kenwood DDX630WBT / 630W. With Navigation, the Blau set is a really good deal at that price.

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Originally Posted by crazydave View Post
... Would you have recommendations on good ICE shops in NCR? ...
The Team BHP Directory for Delhi / NCR lists Driven (East of Kailash) and Motor Concepts (Rajouri Garden).

A word of caution: please do participate in the ICE installation process. Most of the 'installers' have a morbid desire to appear as 'experts', and many times you will find that your common sense is actually better than their 'expertise'. Also, please be aware that all dealers have a tendency to push what they have (with a lot of impressive talk), rather than what you want.
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Old 27th May 2013, 11:02   #17
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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I also meant the same, if you re-read my post. Damping, please understand, is not limited to well-known brands and known materials. A simple fold in the metal or a strengthening bead also acts as a damper, as does good old tar-mica-jute sheets.

Sir, that is the vapor barrier that prevents moisture ingress into the cabin. It is not damping at all.

The next time you come across a car door with doorpad open, please look carefully at the inner side of the outer panel. Also, lift the floor carpets and look underneath.
Sir, no offence, but that's like stretching it just to prove your point, that all cars come with damping. What I meant to say is that no car comes with proper damping to aid an ICE set up. The car might be damped technically but that's not enough for an after market ICE.

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Please don't be prejudiced - it is easy to check on the net: Blaupunkt New York 800. And those features are not 'audiophile' as you put it, they are good to have features. Good if they are present, not a serious problem if they aren't. There is no TA or Sub phase shift (most HUs don't have that, some have Sub polarity reversal or 180deg phase shift) BUT ...
* 3 band equalizer (a good system doesn't rely on EQ, and 3-band is not bad)
* HPF, Mid-pass and LPF (what you are calling as crossovers)
* 3x 2V pre-outs, incl. a dedicated Sub output with its individual gain and frequency control. 2V output needs amp gain to be turned up, so? Amps usually handle inputs 0.6-8V!
Yes I did go through that spec list, and these features might be just good to have to you, but to me they make the listening experience a whole lot better.
Out of all the features that I listed, this HU only has Subwoofer control and something that Blaupunkt calls 'subwoofer filter', which is I think a Low Pass Filter. There is no HPF or a mid-pass filter.
About the EQ a good system with a good Equaliser does give a lot of flexibility to the user/listener.
I am sure you no the going higher on the gain knob means comparatively un-clean signals. So a high volt RCA like a 4v or a 4.8V one is always better.
I am not saying that this HU isn't good, all I am saying is that there are better HUs when it comes to the SQ part of it, but that's for the buyer to prioritise. I can compile a list if you want me to, there are more than a few.

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Originally Posted by crazydave View Post
Thanks DerAlte and 599GTO, am getting a good education on ICE basics from both of you. DerAlte, the Blaupunkt New York 800 HU is costing @dkaile 31500, which is a good price for a 2-DIN with BT+GPS. Would you have recommendations on good ICE shops in NCR?

I've decided to drop the under-seat sub idea for now. I think the HU with features I need + 2 comps + 2 co-axs + amp + labour + damping will already cross my 50K budget. I'll make sure to have some provision/plan for underseat subs ready for the next upgrade however!
Anytime crazydave, but like I said I am no guru, but I understand ICE and like to spend my cash on the best available option.

Last edited by 599gto : 27th May 2013 at 11:18.
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Old 27th May 2013, 11:04   #18
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
A word of caution: please do participate in the ICE installation process. Most of the 'installers' have a morbid desire to appear as 'experts', and many times you will find that your common sense is actually better than their 'expertise'. Also, please be aware that all dealers have a tendency to push what they have (with a lot of impressive talk), rather than what you want.
Thanks for the pro tip. Will definitely do this, am planning to camp out at the installers and ensure everything is done before me. Am setting aside a whole weekend for this!

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Originally Posted by 599gto View Post
I am not saying that this HU isn't good, all I am saying is that there are better HUs when it comes to the SQ part of it, but that's for the buyer to prioritise. I can compile a list if you want me to, there are more than a few.
Please, I'd be very grateful if you could post that list here!

Last edited by DerAlte : 27th May 2013 at 11:49. Reason: Back to back posts - merged
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Old 27th May 2013, 11:35   #19
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Please don't be prejudiced - it is easy to check on the net: Blaupunkt New York 800. And those features are not 'audiophile' as you put it, they are good to have features. Good if they are present, not a serious problem if they aren't. There is no TA or Sub phase shift (most HUs don't have that, some have Sub polarity reversal or 180deg phase shift) BUT ...
Does this work with the GV steering controls?

I have never bothered to change the ICE on GV. Why mess with a good thing. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
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Old 27th May 2013, 12:06   #20
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Sir, no offence, but that's like stretching it just to prove your point, ...
The way you are going, it is not difficult to understand who is stretching which point. Peace - please don't be offended if others see a picture bigger than you are seeing.

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Does this work with the GV steering controls? ...
Most of the after-market car-agnostic HUs usually don't interface directly. One can use an aftermarket steering controls adapter - like the Connects2.
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Old 27th May 2013, 12:34   #21
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Does this work with the GV steering controls?
You can use Grand Vitara adapters like http://www.amazon.co.uk/Connects-CTS.../dp/B0044164JC

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
I have never bothered to change the ICE on GV. Why mess with a good thing. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Neither would I, if it was any where good. I was very insistent that the HU not be touched, but the fact that it does not come with USB support was a dealbreaker!

Last edited by crazydave : 27th May 2013 at 12:42. Reason: Add one more sentence
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Old 27th May 2013, 18:40   #22
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Please, I'd be very grateful if you could post that list here!
Definitely, the list will be up on Wednesday, but getting exact prices is difficult.

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The way you are going, it is not difficult to understand who is stretching which point. Peace - please don't be offended if others see a picture bigger than you are seeing.
Good for them Sir, I like indulging into details. Peace!
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:47   #23
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

Hi Crazydave,

Based on my very limited experience in the ICE section, I would recommend the following:

1. Go in for a 2-Din unit from JVC or Pioneer or Blaupunkt (the Philedelphia range would help with the OE look - and the SQ levels are quite decent) - About 15 to 20k

2. Put in a 4 channel amplifier - a Kenwood unit should keep the costs controlled while offering a good Output for the price - About 6 k

3. A 10" or 12" subwoofer from Rockford Fosgate (relatively lower price point with decent SQ vs. loudness ratio) or from Digital Designs (budget permitting - much tighter bass) - About 9 to 11k for the RF Punch 10" with the box

4. Rainbow Dreamline components up front (powered by the amp) and decent coaxials like Hertz at the rear - About 14k

All in all this should limit your costs to about 40 to 45k including wirings and power kits.
This should keep you well entertained, while offering you iPod, USB, Aux-In, and CD options. The SQ levels up front should be darn good with the Rainbow DLs.

I have gotten my audio work done at Driven, East of Kailash. The quality of work is fantastic, and I would certainly recommend it. If you happen to come to this side of town, feel free to contact me as I stay close by.

Hope it helps.

Cheers,
Sam
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Old 31st May 2013, 01:01   #24
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Originally Posted by samarth.bhatia View Post
Hi Crazydave,

Based on my very limited experience in the ICE section, I would recommend the following:

1. Go in for a 2-Din unit from JVC or Pioneer or Blaupunkt (the Philedelphia range would help with the OE look - and the SQ levels are quite decent) - About 15 to 20k

2. Put in a 4 channel amplifier - a Kenwood unit should keep the costs controlled while offering a good Output for the price - About 6 k

3. A 10" or 12" subwoofer from Rockford Fosgate (relatively lower price point with decent SQ vs. loudness ratio) or from Digital Designs (budget permitting - much tighter bass) - About 9 to 11k for the RF Punch 10" with the box

4. Rainbow Dreamline components up front (powered by the amp) and decent coaxials like Hertz at the rear - About 14k

All in all this should limit your costs to about 40 to 45k including wirings and power kits.
This should keep you well entertained, while offering you iPod, USB, Aux-In, and CD options. The SQ levels up front should be darn good with the Rainbow DLs.

I have gotten my audio work done at Driven, East of Kailash. The quality of work is fantastic, and I would certainly recommend it. If you happen to come to this side of town, feel free to contact me as I stay close by.

Hope it helps.

Cheers,
Sam
Hi Samarth, this helps very much indeed. Thanks for your very specific recommendations
  • Took a look at the Philadelphia HU range. Its placed above the New York range (which member dkaile is being offered for 31K). The price you have quoted, can you tell me where its available?
  • Since a lot of my music is mid-based, I'm actually thinking of skipping the sub all together now. If you had 10K to reallocate to 2 comps up-front and 2 co-axs for the rear, what would you recommend in place of your current Rainbow and Hertz recommendations?
  • Thanks for the Driven recommendation. Will definitely give you a buzz if I decide to get it done there!
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Old 31st May 2013, 09:35   #25
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Took a look at the Philadelphia HU range. Its placed above the New York range (which member dkaile is being offered for 31K). The price you have quoted, can you tell me where its available?
I had taken a quote for the Philadelphia HU also and details are available here on my Superb thread - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post3126492 (Skoda Superb - A tryst with destiny) .

I was told that this HU is NOT compatible with my Fortuner and is specifically made ONLY for VAG cars and same should hold true for your Grand Vitara too. So their compatible model is New York 800 in your case.
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Old 31st May 2013, 12:38   #26
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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Originally Posted by crazydave View Post
  • Took a look at the Philadelphia HU range. Its placed above the New York range (which member dkaile is being offered for 31K). The price you have quoted, can you tell me where its available?
  • Since a lot of my music is mid-based, I'm actually thinking of skipping the sub all together now. If you had 10K to reallocate to 2 comps up-front and 2 co-axs for the rear, what would you recommend in place of your current Rainbow and Hertz recommendations?
  • Thanks for the Driven recommendation. Will definitely give you a buzz if I decide to get it done there!
Hi,

The price I mentioned was not for BP models, it was for a 2-Din JVC/Pioneer unit. BP models are typically in the range of 30k+. Somehow I would rather spend 15 to 20k on the HU and save the rest 10k for better speakers. Since you want an OEM look, they might come close to offering that, but I would rather suggest going in for Pioneer, as with their touch screen models, you get a very neat & clean look, with a thin piano black border around the screen, and very less number of physical buttons.

About the 10k allocation, assuming that it is for both front & rear stages put together, I suggest considering high quality coaxials upfront (something like Hertz or Polk Audio), assuming you would drive the car yourself, with a pair of coaxials on the rear stage as well.
But I must add that I went in for a similar setup initially, but eventually ended up upgrading the front stage to Rainbow DL components. Remember you would rather spend once and enjoy it for the rest of the life of the vehicle.. And this is exactly the problem with ICE. It gets pretty hard to stick to a budget.

Even if you don't come this side of town, let's still catch up during the next Team BHP Delhi Meet. It would be good to have an SUV like the Vitara in our group

Cheers.
Sam

Last edited by samarth.bhatia : 31st May 2013 at 12:40.
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Old 31st May 2013, 14:24   #27
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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... high quality coaxials upfront (something like Hertz or Polk Audio) ...
There is nothing "high quality" about those brands. Such phrases are just sales talk. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. It is always better to listen and decide, since your ears (and what is in between) are the only best judge. Sometimes one finds economical speaker sound as sweet as speakers twice the price. If one is clear what one wants, ICE budget can be easily controlled - it is not necessary that spending buckets of money will give you a 'better' system.

And one does not suggest coaxials in front for one basic reason - the sound image produced by components is far better than what the coaxials give - independent of brands.

Last edited by DerAlte : 31st May 2013 at 14:25.
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Old 31st May 2013, 15:27   #28
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There is nothing "high quality" about those brands. Such phrases are just sales talk. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. It is always better to listen and decide, since your ears (and what is in between) are the only best judge. Sometimes one finds economical speaker sound as sweet as speakers twice the price. If one is clear what one wants, ICE budget can be easily controlled - it is not necessary that spending buckets of money will give you a 'better' system.

And one does not suggest coaxials in front for one basic reason - the sound image produced by components is far better than what the coaxials give - independent of brands.
I completely agree with your point about the aspect of testing & judging various speakers for yourself.

As I mentioned earlier, I have used Hertz coaxials and have had excellent experience of the same. Ditto for Polk Audio.
And as compared to JBL, Sony or Pioneer, all of which I have personally use as well, the quality IS far better. Individual opinions can differ on sound reproduction, but would probably not differ along the lines of crackling low end sounds coming from speakers within a couple of months of installation, right? I've faced that issue with Pioneer, JBL, and Sony - so have many other users. But not with Hertz or Polk Audio.

And as for your point on components vs. coaxials, I would completely agree too, hence I suggested components for the front stage in my first post on the thread. Coaxials were suggested based on the budget that was specified later.

As for the aspect of spending more to get better quality, I have found (like many others) that you can either spend a certain sum once and get a certain quality, or you can spend 50% higher, and get something you'd actually appreciate longer. Physical Quality is at times as important as SQ, wouldn't you agree?

Cheers.
Sam
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Old 31st May 2013, 15:40   #29
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

What I will suggest is listen to few of the setups with a double din unit and if possible and you are lucky to have a demo of the unit you have finalized - will help in deciding what kind of signature you are looking for in music - ditto while choosing speakers. The installer you choose can surely help you in this area - In delhi your choices are Motor Concepts/Driven (Check City Directory for more information about them)

If you were not soo particular about 2 din HU's you could have got a good Pioneer 80PRS which is pretty good source unit in the current market for about 20K.

It also gives you the oppurtunity to have ample budget to choose good speakers - there were some deals on Focal speakers somewhere do check them(not sure if they still exists). I will suggest stick to front speakers(component pair) currently and later you may upgrade to rear speakers if required.

Choose any 4 channel amp and there are many brands to choose from - your installer can help you here.

Get good wiring and damping and you are good to go in the first phase of ICE.

Next depending on your requirement you can choose to add a sub/rear speakers. Now a days you get good 8" sub aswell and they do the duty pretty good I must add - again audition the gear before finalizing.
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Old 31st May 2013, 16:02   #30
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Default Re: ICE Advice for a Grand Vitara

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... the quality IS far better ...
You are correct in what you mention, but you are using the wrong expression. 'Quality' is associated with the absence of defects in a product, governing how long it lasts, how it takes to abuse etc. - that is not what you wanted to convey. There is nothing subjective about this aspect. Generally, all the speaker brands we talk about here have decent quality (very few failures).

What you were highlighting was the audio aspects of that product - ability to reproduce details, bright or neutral character, sufficiently loud midbass, sensitivity (loudness) etc. This completely depends on the impressions of who listened to it, and is subjective. In this aspect, it is possible to term a speaker 'bad' or 'horrible', but one wouldn't say 'bad quality' or 'horrible quality'. It is also possible for someone to term the same speaker 'Fantastic', another to say 'Pedestrian' and yet another to say 'Horrible'!!!
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