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Old 1st July 2006, 21:57   #16
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I havent read the longgggggg post of b&t and gunbir and autophile but sure will be interesting........


and where is the thread started our dharams hopes he will under stand some thing discussed above and he will benifit from it LOL

Last edited by low_bass_makker : 1st July 2006 at 22:07.
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Old 1st July 2006, 22:14   #17
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Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
and where is the thread started our dharams hopes he will under stand some thing discussed above and he will benifit from it LOL
Hahahahaha... poor Dharmas...

Dharmas, if you're reading this... ignore our idle chit chat... the point is/was... go out, spend some time, listen to stuff, then make your decision... somewhere in there if you need any advice... please ask for our opinions and everybody here will be glad to help out...
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Old 1st July 2006, 23:42   #18
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PHEW!!... Meri poori utar gayi!!.. ab fir se peena padega!!..

GUYS... Such long ones... On a Sat eve!! .... Dontcha'll have pastimes like "damsels in distress " etc?? ... lol
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Old 2nd July 2006, 00:45   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb100
PHEW!!... Meri poori utar gayi!!.. ab fir se peena padega!!..

GUYS... Such long ones... On a Sat eve!! .... Dontcha'll have pastimes like "damsels in distress " etc?? ... lol
he he ...good one..and the guy who started this thread has not even replied once
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Old 3rd July 2006, 10:47   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
1. A 6dB increase does not mean double the loudness. But in fact four times as loud. Remember, loudness doubles (as humans percieve it) EVERY 3dB.

2. By that standard an Rs 8K Hertz ES300D (97dB sensitive) would be even better than the Illusion.

3. One 96dB sensitivity 12" sub DOES NOT equal two 89dB sensitive 12"ers. What about excursion and cone area??? In any case, the two 12"ers will move a lot more air than one.

4. The Nd12 was designed with high sensitivity, and decent low bass, the tradeoff being enclosure volume (based Hoffmans Iron Law). The Nd12 needs a 2.25cuft enclosure to work as intended, right? How is Dharams gonna fit 2 of those enclosures into an 800's boot. And if he CAN, why not consider other 15" subs that will work in less than 2cuft. You will agree 2x15" subs will generally have more SPL than 2x12" subs.

5. Sure, I'll take your word for the Nd12s high build quality. And let me add, the iDQ subs are really basic looking subs.
Sorry I was absent. Lord knows I had a long 4 days.

1. For percieved loudness to double one needs about 10db increase in measured SPL. I say about as this differs a little based on the music you are playing and the room.

2. Sensitivity and SPL are related but not the same thing. I think this was covered before. Distortion-Excursion curves of woofers vary. By this I mean that all woofers distort more as they their excursion increases. Yet no 2 woofers distort the same with the same excursion even if their Linean and non-linear Xmax (max ecursion) numbers are the same (usually quoted in mm or cm). To determine which is a better woofer involves knowing more than we know now (in this case).

3. 2 89db/1w/1m 4 ohm subs (effective impedance 2 ohms) will produce as much SPL with 2.83V as 1 95db/1w/1m 4 ohm sub sub if the amp is able to manage the reduced impedance (of the 2 sub combo) without loss and if the Xmax of the subs is not reached. This is usually fine for the frist few watts but when the watts increase amps can quickly run out of current capacity at 2 ohms and loose control.

4. 4.5 cu. ft. in a 800 can be done. If I can make a 10 ft. TL in a contessa why not? The car is 3 feet wide. The back rest of rear seat is about 2 feet from the floor assuming a box that is 12-14" deep x 3 feet wide x 1.5 feet tall we can make a 4.5 cu. ft. box in a 800. leaving just about enough room for a rear deck and rear speakers as well. Never say Never. Like Nike says, "Impossible is Nothing".

5. Sub looks are not important. Sound is. Yes today we do have the advantages of new materials and manufacturing techniques but so far they have not consistently produced better speakers even with the right intentions. While it all fine to discuss cast and extruded baskets, and NdFeB magnet systems and Carbon and Kevlar cones, and copper shorting rings etc... one should ONLY judge a speaker by how it sounds. The rest is jsut guys like ME showing off what they know and how little that is! :-)

If you dont expect to learn to drive a car by reading a book why expect the learn to recognise what sounds good and what does not from a forum? Listen and you will learn a lot more than this forum can teach. All applogies to the Gurus.
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Old 3rd July 2006, 13:15   #21
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Arrey wah!!

I toh wasn't even interested so much in this "800" thread and suddenly what do I see..

Bravo Bravo!! Good scrap boys. Good fun. All in all a good monday.

Dharams, pease don't get scared by what just happened. This is all normal here. If you find the posts too long and confusing, you are welcome to start again ok?
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Old 3rd July 2006, 14:06   #22
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ya right,,
poor guy, he only asked for a ice set up,,
regards,,
driven




Quote:
Originally Posted by low_bass_makker
I havent read the longgggggg post of b&t and gunbir and autophile but sure will be interesting........


and where is the thread started our dharams hopes he will under stand some thing discussed above and he will benifit from it LOL

Last edited by Driven : 3rd July 2006 at 14:08.
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Old 3rd July 2006, 17:27   #23
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yaar i am going mad only.. i am not able to log in, trying for 2 days and change my passwiord 2 times. even when i was registring for this nickname it said again and again that the veriication alphabet i was entering was wrong.at las i am able to login.
man i just want to put a system for my car man,. this is like 3- 4 pages bible that people have wirtten. i did not know that my system would cause fighting. neway i cannot put in other car bcos this is the only car that i can fool round with as much as i want and no one else from my fmly use this car. so i have to plan for the 800 only. ..thnx tool for the suggestion. i wrote focus by mistake... i mean the focal only. i didnt knew jm lab had focal car audio but it is very expensive with bill even for the cheapest speakers which sounded very bad. but it is good for 7000 rs without bill. i am also getting JL speakers for 7000rs but i couldnt hear it. i have not heard of hertz man.. i asked my friend in the states also and he also didnt knew. soundstreams is vey bad man.. i heard the speakers. i am waiting to listen to illusions and for focal becaus i have heard the jm lab home speaker and they are very good speaker but it is raining so heavy today here all places are flooded....., bass & treble..is the illusions really waterproof bcos the shop fellow told me that there is problem to fit speaker in door of 800 because water will go into speakers and it wil get spoilt.. .so i dont want to take any chance. but you are wrong about the prices for illusins bcos the shop told me that price is only 9500 for 1 woofer..not 25000.

the person from the shop also told me that i should buy alpine mp3 player bcos there is no point to use good speakers and amps with pioneer player. is this will really make big diff for my system. i know that for home audio qulaity of player is vry important and thats why i am using seperete cd player not even having mp3. is alpin e also mp3...bcos i dont want to use only cd player in car bcos it is very difficult to carry so many cds for car. also he told that pioneer amplifier is also not very good, man i payed 17000 for the amp when i had bought it for my zen about 4-5 yrs back..& i donnot have any problem with one woofer only..actulay for my home i am not using any woofer but in car i think it is must because speaker dont have much bass and can hear distortioin if there is more of bass.
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Old 4th July 2006, 11:21   #24
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Wow. Dharams, it was easier for me to understand the "bible" below lol.

Ok from what i gather you have some generic questions. Yes the quality of the HU will dictate the quality of your sound. If you will look around the forum, you will see opinions tilting again in favour of pioneer.
Alpine sound quality is not what it used to be.
There's nothing wrong with pioneer amplifiers, of course there are many amps better than pioneer.
Bass and trouble is generally not wrong about such things, maybe you and him are talking about different series of woofers.

Today all commercially available car CD HU's are MP3 compatible.
Hope this helps.
And yes, the rain is quite bad. I'm at home today too.
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Old 4th July 2006, 11:38   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
but you are wrong about the prices for illusins bcos the shop told me that price is only 9500 for 1 woofer..not 25000.
Cant be... Maybe you were quoted for another model of Illusion. B&T was talking about the Nd12 sub.

The Soundstreams, they are pathetic... stay away from them. There are many series in JL, which ones are you talking about. Focal has some good speakers but I feel the Polyglass is a bit overpriced at 21k. I have heard better speakers for far less. I would suggest you get an audition of the Infinity Kappa comps. I am told these are not normally in stock but look around and you may find a pair with bill & warranty. IMHO these are far superior to the Focals, and you'll save some money too.

Dharams... again, what music do you listen to, how loud do you like it, describe the sound you like/want. This will help us guide you properly and make some valid suggestions.
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Old 4th July 2006, 11:47   #26
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Clarion is another brand you can try. I am hearing a lot of good things about them.

Firstly, For 1L you can get a very good system

1. for 20K you can get a good HU. Pio's P80 for one, Clarion 766 for another and I dont see much wrong with the Alpine 9857 either.

2. For another 30K you can get a nice 5 ch. amp like the Audison LRx 5. Alpine used to make an amp called the 450 that was good too but these are hard to find today. If you dont get a good 5 ch. amp you can get a good 50W x 4 ch. amp for 20K and a good 200-250W mono amp for about 10K.

3. Front and rear speakers can be covered in about 25K (About 20K for some nice components from Focal, Infinty Perfect, Morel, Alpine and Hertz for example and 5K for a pair fo coax for rear fill). I have not heard Hertz but there are many here who have and Hertz reps (Gunbir and Autophile) are part of the forum.

4. For 25K you can get a pair of nice subs from the likes of JBL, ID, Hertz, Alpine or Infinity.

5. Add about 10K for wires and install and you are home for about 1.1L.

If you feel like spending more I'd suggest first getting a lot of dynamt and damping all the panels incl both door panels (inner and outer). Then getting a good fiberglass man to make you a pair of custom tweeter pods that match your interiors.

Hope that offers you a ray of hope after reading 25 posts.

Secondly the Pros like Sam, Gumbir, Autophile, Viper, etc. are barred from recommending their products as this is a non-commercial forum. I wont stop anyone from taking any discuission with them offline. There are others like Tool and B&T who are also very knowledgeable as they "work with their ears".

Thirdly I get the feeling that you know better than to trust anyone else's ear but your own. Listen and buy not the other way around.

Lastly Please excuse the rantings of this senile old man. I am here only becuase it makes me feel important. Post 20 above is proof.

Last edited by navin : 4th July 2006 at 11:53.
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Old 4th July 2006, 22:47   #27
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hi everyone... thanks so much for all the replies. actully now i am even more confused yaar )

the dealer had told me to contact mr. ajay for the demo and he told me he is bass &treble on this forum but yaar, i cant listen to the demo bcos he is not able to arange any car bcos of hevay rains he is not able to come.

tool..thanks for the private messages ..i will meet you yaar since you ar hving hertz in ur car. i didnt know that illsuions is so bad or i wudnt have asked for any demos thanks for telling me becuase i was told that it is vry good. the shop guy was telling me that it is the best because it is cheap and said that bass is telling me wrong prices but i didnt know that bass is only going to give me demo. then why he is telling all double prices?..

i also got msg frm cartouch or something but i had once gone to there shop in mlian subway long time back and there was lots of attidude,he said that do i know what freguencies response is and that i shud buy speaker with good frequenc response..man i know bout fr resp and what he is saying to sell his products only was not right. i have good system in my house and i bought it aftr lots of reserch and it is very good for my budget. he thinks that he know everything more than everyone but this is really a good forum i think where there are many knowlegedgable ppl.


sam thank you..i want mp3 compatible player but i hope it will not have bad quality of sound bcos for home cd players i have heard that mp3 players are not good and i have heArd many and know that pure audio cd player is very good. are you having any shop?

navin it is possible for me to listen to the clarion that you are asking me for?? because nobody has told me about clarion. also since you are not sugesting illusions & everybody is saying its not good i think i will listen to other things...do yo have a shop???..i would like to come. thanks everybody

dharam soni
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Old 5th July 2006, 00:05   #28
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Dharms,

1. B&T (Ajay) does represent Illusion (and Audiobahn) and he is entitled to market his speakers/amp etc. just NOT on this forum. This Forum is a non-commercial enterprise.

2. I'd suggest you use YOUR ears and WHATS BETWEEN them rather than anyone elses on this forum. If you dont like a dealer walk out. No dealer is doing you a favour. Over the years the relationship I have with my dealer is so good that I can take a amp home over the weekend just to listen to it. One day you will find a dealer like that too. Relationships take time to build.

3. I am old? How old? Suffice to say I built my first pair of speakers and amp 35 years ago. I dont understand SMS lingo hence please dont talk like Tool. It is hard enough following what he says (or Sam's interpretations).

4. I have not heard Clarion myself but heard enough people I trust say good things about it to atleast give it a listen. I am open to opinion not blind or deaf - dumb maybe but not deaf or blind! :-)

5. I have never worked in the audio industry or any part of it. I do have very good realtionships with many people in the audio industry and I do my best to not let that colour my judgement. I did do some volunteer work at a Radio Station and some Recording studios in NY when I was student (for a bit more than minimum wage) and hung out in Videbaek (Denmark) soaking all at Vifa and ScanSpeak when they were seperate concerns. Beyond that nothing else.
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Old 5th July 2006, 00:36   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
hi everyone... thanks so much for all the replies. actully now i am even more confused yaar )
Dharam phaji... Hi! Well thats an expected side effect of this forum...
I am sorry we havent been help you this far. So I will take some liberties and answer on behalf of people. People, please forgive me if any mistakes are made and do correct me where required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
the dealer had told me to contact mr. ajay for the demo and he told me he is bass &treble on this forum but yaar, i cant listen to the demo bcos he is not able to arange any car bcos of hevay rains he is not able to come.
Like Superman and Clark Kent.... we have Bass&Trouble and Ajay... wait for the rains to subside... though this would have been a good time to test the Illusion's 'water-resistant' properties... (I joke I joke)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
tool..thanks for the private messages ..i will meet you yaar since you ar hving hertz in ur car. i didnt know that illsuions is so bad or i wudnt have asked for any demos thanks for telling me becuase i was told that it is vry good. the shop guy was telling me that it is the best because it is cheap and said that bass is telling me wrong prices but i didnt know that bass is only going to give me demo. then why he is telling all double prices?..
Dont know about double pricing my friend. But let me tell you something of the little I know about this... Illusion has some nice products (some great and some average, like all manufacturers).

Tool is opinionated about Illusion Audio and his opinion is just that... his opinion. Doesnt mean you may not like the Illusion's sound. I would however respect Tools opinion cuz whether by passion or by profession (being a studio engineer), he is exposed to some great audio equipment and has to rely on his ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
i also got msg frm cartouch or something but i had once gone to there shop in mlian subway long time back and there was lots of attidude,he said that do i know what freguencies response is and that i shud buy speaker with good frequenc response..man i know bout fr resp and what he is saying to sell his products only was not right. i have good system in my house and i bought it aftr lots of reserch and it is very good for my budget. he thinks that he know everything more than everyone but this is really a good forum i think where there are many knowlegedgable ppl.
You went to Milan Subway and probably met Mr Ramesh. Cartouch56 on this forum is his brother Kirit who runs the Shivaji park outlet. Yes, sometimes car audio installers are snobbish without realising as much. I would rather they let their work speak for them. If you like their work, I guess you'll put up with their nakhras. If not, why bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
sam thank you..i want mp3 compatible player but i hope it will not have bad quality of sound bcos for home cd players i have heard that mp3 players are not good and i have heArd many and know that pure audio cd player is very good. are you having any shop?
Sam is our very own TBHP celebrity and senior management at Sahil Intl, the people at FX Audio, you know... Harman Kardon brands: JBL, Infinity etc. So while he has vested interest, you wont find him selling anyone his products (they sell well enough anyways). That said, Their products can be found all over the place. I think I suggested you the Infinty Kappa comps. Give them a listen, I have a feeling you will like them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dharams
navin it is possible for me to listen to the clarion that you are asking me for?? because nobody has told me about clarion. also since you are not sugesting illusions & everybody is saying its not good i think i will listen to other things...do yo have a shop???..i would like to come. thanks everybody.
Hmmm... No Navinji doesnt have a shop either. to quote Sam, Navinji is "the grand old man of audio". Navinji gives his approval very sparingly. which means you should listen to him. He will not guide you wrong.

As far as HUs are concerned, here is my take... It doesnt hurt to have MP3/WMA etc capabilities in your HU. If you dont want it, dont use it. But to find a unit today which doesnt do MP3 you would have to look very low or very high. That means most companies do have basic HUs that do not have MP3. But these are typically 5-6k HUs and dont have great features or internals for a serious install. At the other end are reference models like the Clarion HX-D2, which dont do MP3 and have exotic internals, sound very good but are of course expensive... we are talking 50k plus.

My advice is to get a nice HU like the Alpine 7998, Pioneer P80RS, Clarion 956, Kenwood XXV edition etc. They have good specs, and are priced well enough and even though they may do MP3, they are only one step short of the reference models and sound very good.

Hope this helped.

Edit: As Navinji has pointed out earlier, I and Autophile (Jb) head a company in Delhi that distributes Image Dynamics, Hertz, Audison, Tru Technology, Connection Audison and AZaudiocomp. So when you read our posts know that we may be biased, I maintain we arent but still...

Last edited by gunbir : 5th July 2006 at 00:45.
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Old 5th July 2006, 00:41   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbir
My advice is to get a nice HU like the Alpine 7998, Pioneer P80RS, Clarion 956, Kenwood XXV edition etc. They have good specs, and are priced well enough and even though they may do MP3, they are only one step short of the reference models and sound very good..
Having heard the 7998 I can approve of it. Simply the best Alpine out there only questions is if you find one. Also the Clarion 866 (966's younger brother) is well respected.
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