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Old 17th April 2014, 19:31   #31
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Default Re: OEM ICE User Interfaces: Why so outdated?

So you guys think its boring eh, well not for long and may not really matter for long too.

http://www.iclarified.com/38824/appl...nx-for-carplay

http://www.iclarified.com/38797/merc...-photo-gallery

Soon it maybe all from your mobile for all you know.



And available with compatibility with older car models?

http://www.iclarified.com/38886/merc...older-vehicles

Even the boring Toyota might have some plans in mind?

http://www.iclarified.com/39065/toyo...s-announcement

In short, future is going to be very different and super kewl!

And dont worry we can still by Lxi and plonk in this to make it Zxi

http://www.iclarified.com/39898/alpi...ting-this-fall

Last edited by Jaggu : 17th April 2014 at 19:34.
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Old 17th April 2014, 19:51   #32
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Default Re: OEM ICE User Interfaces: Why so outdated?

Yep this is something better. . Apple and google are starting to innovate with the ICE and eagerly waiting for those to be production ready.
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Old 18th April 2014, 16:35   #33
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Things are changing. I don't think that cost/reliability is the issue here. Willingness to invest is. Sad as it may seem, the manufacturers think in terms of ROI and if it will not bring additional profit, they see no point in investing for the same.
Although things will turn around soon, when Google and Apple jumps in and starts the competition.

About feasibility, if the e2o can get a relatively advanced system, other cars also definitely can.
Here's a link to the review-
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...al-review.html (Mahindra Reva e2o : Official Review)

Heck, you can even switch on the AC remotely from your cellphone.
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Old 18th April 2014, 18:53   #34
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... the manufacturers think in terms of ROI and if it will not bring additional profit, they see no point in investing for the same. ...
If all logic and field feedback points to ROI being tenuous, which management - modern or traditional - would you think will approve the investment? You must remember that manufacturers exist to make profit. Technical feasibility & desirability take a back seat when there is a contention between technical and financial. As the saying goes in Hindi - Ghoda ghaas se pyar karega to khayega kya? (What will the horse eat if it falls in love with grass?)

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... Although things will turn around soon, when Google and Apple jumps in and starts the competition. ...
* Google makes OS - they are not into hardware (their Nexus brand devices are designed and made by others)

* Apple makes non-automotive consumer devices (phones and tablets), not automotive stuff - and neither are they expected to jump in the foreseeable future

* Neither makes a soft *HU* - they are only trying to get *Non-HU* functionality into the HU world (HU functionality: Radio / Media play CD, USB, iPhone / BT-based call control if present). They are inducing HU manufacturers - with "people will buy this" assumptions - to provide a platform that will seamlessly integrate a phone / tablet / phablet UI into the display. That is NOT changing the UI - that is OBFUSCATING the UI issue for everyone. Do you think HU manufacturers are sitting around eating peanuts? To hedge bets (and to humor Google & Apple), most manufacturers will/have ONE model in the field (in limited numbers - Pioneer, Sony etc.). This has been on for the last 3 years - how many models do you find in the market?

* While driving, no one wants to operate the UI for non-HU functions due to Safety considerations, neither on the mobile device, nor on the HU display extension. Speech recognition? Even Siri and it's ilk are years away from being an efficient UI method. So what will one need the non-HU functionality for - Media Player? That is already there in the current HUs, no?

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... Heck, you can even switch on the AC remotely from your cellphone.
Sure. Wait - that's nothing, there are driver-less cars just over the horizon!
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Old 18th April 2014, 19:25   #35
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* Google makes OS - they are not into hardware (their Nexus brand devices are designed and made by others)
Not quite, they just bought nest. A company that produces thermostats.
http://www.cnet.com/news/google-clos...chase-of-nest/

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* Apple makes non-automotive consumer devices (phones and tablets), not automotive stuff - and neither are they expected to jump in the foreseeable future
Not guide, have a look at this:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/17/56...-benz-hands-on

or this:
http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/03/app...e-accessories/

or google "apple cars". you will be surprised!

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* Neither makes a soft *HU* - they are only trying to get *Non-HU* functionality into the HU world (HU functionality: Radio / Media play CD, USB, iPhone / BT-based call control if present).
Not quite, google apple HU and you will see that the industry recognizes google glass as a HU display

And Apple is definitely looking into the HU world as well:

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/12...isplay-patent/


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* While driving, no one wants to operate the UI for non-HU functions due to Safety considerations, neither on the mobile device, nor on the HU display extension. Speech recognition? Even Siri and it's ilk are years away from being an efficient UI method. So what will one need the non-HU functionality for - Media Player? That is already there in the current HUs, no?
Sorry again, not quite; Speech recognition exist at a very robust level for military and civil aviation. It just needs to find its way to civilian/consumer use. I'm no expert, but its probably something to do with different languages, accents and scale and or volume to bring it into every car. You should have been at MWC, you would have been blown away what the state of the art is.

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Sure. Wait - that's nothing, there are driver-less cars just over the horizon!
Agree

Jeroen
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Old 18th April 2014, 21:48   #36
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Not quite, they just bought nest. A company that produces thermostats. ...
In the context of this discussion, perhaps Motorola Mobile is more relevant than the smart thermostat company. It still doesn't make Google a hardware company. One swallow doesn't ...



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... Not guide, have a look at this: ...



or google "apple cars". you will be surprised! ...
Sir, they are still dependent on an HU maker to complete the subsystem. And, here too one swallow doesn't ... Everyone has been baulking at the lack of real volume demand - Benz, BMW, Audi etc. inclusive! Low consumer priority, unlike computing devices. Money money money, not tech flamboyance, is the driver.



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... google glass as a HU display ...
In the context of this discussion, an HU is Head Unit, not Heads Up display.


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Sorry again, not quite; Speech recognition exist at a very robust level for military and civil aviation. ...
The GPS satellites that we rely on were up there for 25 years for military use before being allowed in civilian applications. It will come, we just have to be patient.

OTOH, we are talking of near future, right? The inside of the auto is a different, very inconducive ball game. So is continuous speech recognition v/s discrete. Try using Siri in a car? Or even with TV on at home? I have heavily used Dragon software (continuous recognition), and have created spoken command recognition systems (discrete, not continuous) BUT we cannot expect a driver on the street to don an expensive headset that these systems, and military and civil aviation guys use, can we? Things are there or not there for a reason, no matter how much we fantasise!
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Old 18th April 2014, 23:39   #37
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I
OTOH, we are talking of near future, right? The inside of the auto is a different, very inconducive ball game. Things are there or not there for a reason, no matter how much we fantasise!
I think we need to be very careful just thinking of cars as a separate industry, that for some strange reason has its own completely separate set of dynamics. I spend a considerable amount of my time of looking and studying other industries to see and learn. So I get to visit research centers, universities and a lot of other companies outside my own industry. I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with reps from both Google and Apple in the recent past. Meeting with them is a revelation!

Ericsson published a white paper on "fifty billion connected devices in 2020" in 2010. ( http://www.ericsson.com/res/docs/whi...0-billions.pdf ). At the time, it was met with skepticism from some. Now, less than four years later, just about everybody agrees we will have more far more than just fifty billion connected devices in 2020.

Technology and the adaption of technology in all sorts of products is accelerating at an unprecedented pace. Check out my other post on the latest in car development on the Mobile World Congress earlier this year. Nothing like that was predicted 2-4 years ago, and now it is already reality.

I dare say, there will be manufacturers who will not adapt quickly enough, or some of their suppliers. Remember Kodak? In the space of just a few years from very successful to bankruptcy because they did not believe in new technology.

Successful companies tend to be the ones that not just embrace change but actively push for change. The ones that don't, are skeptical, to factual tend to be the losers. New technologies have a history of making profound impact on society and culture and have caused massive changes in the business landscape. We are in the midst of a huge Mobile Broad Band era, that will allow everything to be connected with everything all the time.

It took 100 years to connect 1 billion places and only 25 years to connect 5 billion people. The next step is connecting things. The 50 billion connected devices as a starting point for new ways of innovating, collaborating, and socializing is happening. I can't predict exactly how it will be happening and which companies will be successful. But I would urge everybody to open up to this new reality and make the most of it. Pretty exiting stuff.

Once you bring good reliable connectivity into a car, the sky is the limit. I mean, without connectivity there is only so much you can on your little dashboard or HU display. Just boring car stuff.

Lets revisit this thread in say two years. I'm sure we will have seen massive adaption of all form of connectivity and thus very advanced ICE in cars.

Maybe not immediately in India, but certainly in other parts of the world. Although, India does have an interesting starting position compared to other countries. We never had that much penetration of fixed broadband here. India skipped that phase more or less and currently 3G smart phones are selling like hot cakes. Already 4G services are available and RJIL will launch their 4G by the end of the year or so. Choose which analyst to believe but by 2017 India is likely to have more than 300 million smart phone users. That's a lot of people that are likely to very digital saffy and they want to be connected all the time.

Jeroen

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Old 19th April 2014, 01:38   #38
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Actually I can't recall exactly where I read it, but Google and Apple are seriously trying to get into the Car infotainment business.

Mobile development has pretty much reached saturation (every new version of iOS and Android are just evolutions, no longer revolutions). So these companies are trying to get into other business like wearable computers (watches, glasses etc) and Cars.
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Old 21st April 2014, 14:31   #39
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I think we need to be very careful just thinking of cars as a separate industry, ...
Think about Operating Environment in the cars in this context, not which "industry" (which has nothing to do with the current discussion). Paradigms are not dependent, nor are they a result of, the "industry" with which there is a journalistic tendency to create an association with. Paradigms in technology are specific to the operating environment, both hardware as well as end-user. For example, 'Reminders' popping up are just fine on portable devices, but absolutely inappropriate while driving - no matter how important the event it is associated with. Over-generalization can only make it FUBAR!

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... Ericsson published a white paper on "fifty billion connected devices in 2020" in 2010. ...
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... It took 100 years to connect 1 billion places and only 25 years to connect 5 billion people. The next step is connecting things. ... Pretty exiting stuff. ...
Like Isaac Asimov did in 1964, I can predict that humans will be sprouting 2 antennae on top of their heads by 2064 - genetic mutation due to connected devices. But no, that is not the point. The much tom-tom'd phrase "Connected world" and "Connectivity" has no meaning - zilch - if one doesn't look at what it will be used for. It is a question of appropriateness. Much like my wife points out if she spots me carrying my mobile to the 'throne'!!!

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... Nothing like that was predicted 2-4 years ago, and now it is already reality. ...
It takes about as much time for a mature product to make an appearance in the market. Before that, 0.5-10x this time would have elapsed in the thinking and preparation stage. The only reason why such things are not 'predicted' is because no 'journalist' got the wind of it (fortunately) and there was no talk. Do you recognize this?

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... In the space of just a few years from very successful to bankruptcy because they did not believe in new technology. ...
Is it new technology? Or new application? Intel, AMD, ARM, et al, they created technology - they didn't apply it. Apple used technology and applied it in products - they didn't create any technology. For the last 30 years, Kodak did neither - they were in a different business, no? The reason for some businesses nose-diving in a short period has nothing to do with technology adoption. There will always be businesses where the management has atrophied brains, leading to sudden destruction.

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... Successful companies tend to be the ones that not just embrace change but actively push for change. The ones that don't, are skeptical, to factual tend to be the losers ...
Please count the companies with the same motto, which have made dramatic short-lived appearances since 1999, despite having the same motto. Makes for a very amusing read!!! All of them died due to 1 reason - not looking at the appropriateness of what they were trying to make.

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... Once you bring good reliable connectivity into a car, ...
It is already available. What is missing is a realization of what to convey - from and to!!!

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... Already 4G services are available and RJIL will launch their 4G by the end of the year or so. ...
The 'means' don't govern the 'ends' - unlike what the people who want to mop up investment would like others to believe. If the 'ends' don't exist or are not known, what good are the 'means' to achieve those 'ends'? This, incidentally, was at the heart of the 2001-02 downfall of Internet-based "products & services", barring Amazon and eBay. 95% of such companies, products and services got wiped out in that period.
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Old 21st April 2014, 19:41   #40
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Think about Operating Environment in the cars in this context, not which "industry" (which has nothing to do with the current discussion). Paradigms are not dependent, nor are they a result of, the "industry" with which there is a journalistic tendency to create an association with. Paradigms in technology are specific to the operating environment, both hardware as well as end-user. For example, 'Reminders' popping up are just fine on portable devices, but absolutely inappropriate while driving - no matter how important the event it is associated with. Over-generalization can only make it FUBAR!
Not exactly true, and it has been happening for more then 7-8 years now. On modern navigation system warnings will pop up on congestion ahead, accidents, road being shut down and ask you to reroute. Been there for quite a while, my team was part of the development and Beta testers to get that up and running.

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Like Isaac Asimov did in 1964, I can predict that humans will be sprouting 2 antennae on top of their heads by 2064 - genetic mutation due to connected devices. But no, that is not the point. The much tom-tom'd phrase "Connected world" and "Connectivity" has no meaning - zilch - if one doesn't look at what it will be used for. It is a question of appropriateness. Much like my wife points out if she spots me carrying my mobile to the 'throne'!!!
Well, the prediction I'm referring to have less of Asimov character and are being tracked monthly by a whole host of different companies, including mine. And we are underestimating. The growth and adaption of mobile broad band is happening faster then anybody has predicted too date. And daily more and more application are being introduced. From the simple little games to advanced medical and or scientific application. Not sure if you disagree or just don't see that happening or what. Of course, there is a question of appropriateness or fitness for use as I would call it. And there is masses of it. You just need to check the amount of data usage per mobile broad band uses. You give them more bandwidth, they will start using it, more applications will come out etc. etc.

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It takes about as much time for a mature product to make an appearance in the market. Before that, 0.5-10x this time would have elapsed in the thinking and preparation stage. The only reason why such things are not 'predicted' is because no 'journalist' got the wind of it (fortunately) and there was no talk. Do you recognize this?
Yes, I recognize as old school thinking when it comes to how product launches were thought thought And in all honesty there are plenty of areas around the world and industries where it might apply. But more and more it is taking on a very different path and time line all together. Just take Whatsup as an example.

The truth is, these days products get launched long before they are ready, or rather what some used to call ready. I've just been on an interesting course where the phenomena was studied in much detail. The way companies not only get away with, but actually built a very loyal following is by continuously adding new features, new functionality, i.e. a continues improvement.


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Is it new technology? Or new application? Intel, AMD, ARM, et al, they created technology - they didn't apply it. Apple used technology and applied it in products - they didn't create any technology. For the last 30 years, Kodak did neither - they were in a different business, no? The reason for some businesses nose-diving in a short period has nothing to do with technology adoption. There will always be businesses where the management has atrophied brains, leading to sudden destruction.
That's just semantics; check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_innovation

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Please count the companies with the same motto, which have made dramatic short-lived appearances since 1999, despite having the same motto. Makes for a very amusing read!!! All of them died due to 1 reason - not looking at the appropriateness of what they were trying to make.
Lets put it next to list of companies that existed for a hundred years and have gone bust since 1999. Not sure which list is longer.

Contrary to popular belief companies only go bust for one reason really; lack of positive cash flow. Ask any CFO

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It is already available. What is missing is a realization of what to convey - from and to!!!
Yep, and that's why there is a huge battle ongoing:

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...osoft-dominate

What should be of some concern is that some of the more traditional car supplier companies seem to have taken a complete back seat role in this debate/battle. Where are the traditional car (electronic) part/component manufacturers in this. Waiting for somebody to put together a business case and a road map?

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The 'means' don't govern the 'ends' - unlike what the people who want to mop up investment would like others to believe. If the 'ends' don't exist or are not known, what good are the 'means' to achieve those 'ends'? This, incidentally, was at the heart of the 2001-02 downfall of Internet-based "products & services", barring Amazon and eBay. 95% of such companies, products and services got wiped out in that period.
In this day and age, plenty of companies are being valued not on what they are today, but on what they might be in years to come, with often very little concrete products in the pipeline. I honestly don't understand how the calculated the price for What'sup, but it makes sense to plenty of people, but I just can't figure it out mathematically at least.

On the Internet buble burst I leave you with this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8558257.stm

Since then technology is playing an ever increasing role in peoples live, some of the companies around then, are doing extremely well.

And it's last sentence:
Quote:
But a lot of the ideas that were around at the time would have worked had there been broadband.
Enjoy, and make sure you put some broadband in your car!

Jeroen
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Old 22nd April 2014, 14:43   #41
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Not exactly true, and it has been happening for more then 7-8 years now. On modern navigation system warnings will pop up on congestion ahead, accidents, road being shut down and ask you to reroute. ...
a. Please do take more time to read through what others have presented
b. 7-8 years? That has been around for at least 25 years: RDS - Radio Data System.
And modern navigation systems are trying to do it unobtrusively - actively rerouting (the suggested route, not autonomous steering), not expecting / waiting for the user driving at 50mph / 80 kmph to take action. The underlying assumption is the the Nav system and the driver agree on a fundamental issue - get the driver to the destination ASAP!

Not trying to rain on your party, but one has to remember that there are very few, if any, revolutionary advances. Everything that one sees is actually evolutionary advances - which seem revolutionary to people who have been exposed to it only recently.

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... Well, the prediction I'm referring to have less of Asimov character and are being tracked monthly by a whole host of different companies, including mine. And we are underestimating. ...
LOL So did 10s of 1000s of Asimov followers. And Asimov's predictions have come true - ultimately, without even needing substantial interpretation. Unlike Nostradamus'.

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... Just take Whatsup as an example. ...
That got modified to Whassup and Whatup (j/j). I think you meant Whatsapp!

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... That's just semantics ...
Sure, sir, it always is - for people not into it. I am sure you will agree that journalistic post-facto observation has nothing to do with innovation - disruptive or otherwise. It is all after the event has happened. In a stochastic world, post-facto observations cannot predict an event's happening to any degree of certainty. We HOPE, and most don't put their money on that HOPE.

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... Lets put it next to list of companies that existed for a hundred years and have gone bust since 1999. Not sure which list is longer. ...
Would be very illuminating. There are not many, actually - since good core business values and practices don't go out of fashion. Cerebral atrophy afflicts only a few companies.

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Contrary to popular belief companies only go bust for one reason really; lack of positive cash flow. Ask any CFO ...
Correct! Why?

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Enjoy, and make sure you put some broadband in your car! ...
Sure, sir. I have had broadband, and computing devices, in my car - for the last 8 years!!! My experiences are first hand, not via journalistic observations and mumbo-jumbo expressions that one oft reads. And all my experiences have made me realize that I would like all the automotive and other sub-systems in my car to be non-disruptive to my driving, and require minimal deviation of my attention to the road.
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Old 22nd April 2014, 18:38   #42
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Sure, sir. I have had broadband, and computing devices, in my car - for the last 8 years!!! My experiences are first hand, not via journalistic observations and mumbo-jumbo expressions that one oft reads. And all my experiences have made me realize that I would like all the automotive and other sub-systems in my car to be non-disruptive to my driving, and require minimal deviation of my attention to the road.
Amusing as our little tit for tat is, I don't get any new factual information from it. Other than apparently broadband was available in cars in India eight years ago. There you are, live and learn. I never knew that. I was told 3G started in 2008, but maybe there was something else before?

I do respect anybody's experience. However, I never ever let my own experience and or preference limit me in my thinking. I do believe, trusting to much on your own experience is the most self limiting factor people tend to have. I believe it keeps one very much in one's comfort zone. And there is absolute nothing wrong with that perse. However, society and or business at large is developing because individuals keep pushing boundaries. I find that extremely stimulating and I just don't have the patience nor any inclination to stay with what I know and or feel comfortable with today.

If you had asked me say fifteen years ago if I believed in change for just the sake of change as it sometimes is called, I probably would have said, no, lets not do that.

These days, I'm heading a very large high tech organization I have taken a very different view. The world and our (business) environment is rapidly changing. There are very few if any certainties, so you need people who push the envelop all the time. Sure, as you point out, you do need financially astuteness. And you'll be very happy to hear we are making reasonable margins and a good positive cash flow. We have been in business since the late 1800s. We are actively engaged in the R&D, the production, the delivery and the running of these ICT/Telecom networks that will give us these high reliable mobile broad band connections. That is not science fiction, but my day to day reality. In which I'm talking to our customers, prospective customers, partners and other third parties alike here in India,

In such a fast changing world, companies and the individuals that make up those companies do need different skill sets, competencies and behaviors.

So when I interview potential new staff, I never talk about what they have done. Having twenty years of experiencing doesn't really mean anything in this new world. What is relevant what will you do tomorrow? If I make you VP or manager of this department what will be different after three months? What will be different in a years time, How quickly can you turn things around, how do you drive change into an organization, into a product, into a solution.

For me the status quo is only relevant in terms of current financial performance of my company, my division. Financial performance is a cumulation of things of the past. Very relevant, if done properly, e.g. positive cash flow soyou can pay salaries to your employees for instance!

But I do like to spend most of my time looking beyond today and the status quo and figuring out what are we going to do differently. In an industry where some of our roadmaps are 3-5 years if not more, not that easy. But I enjoy it and I find the most challenging and rewarding part of my job.

So I'm not that likely to talk about me current experience as the proper way forward. When I talk about me experience, I think about what is lacking for tomorrow. Usually the list is long and some of it is pretty science fiction, some makes sense, some doesn't. But I alway move on.

Maybe that is the difference between you and me? Don't get me wrong, it's not bad or good, it is just a very different outlook in life in general. I don't get care much about history, other then lessons learned, I don't care about convention or experience. To me the only hing that matters if you can move ahead quickly enough with real impact on things that matter. What matters is a very personal, obviously. For some it might be their job, their family, society whatever.

Just came across this one and I'm sure you will appreciate:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27069716

I hope you enjoy our little tit for tat and take my comments in good humor, no offense meant, but I do believe we have a very different understanding and outlook on these matters.

Jeroen
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Old 23rd April 2014, 12:31   #43
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... I don't get any new factual information from it. ...
Sir, if we look at things from cruising height and don't relate to it, usually we don't find any facts - only figments that satisfy our imagination.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
... I never knew that. I was told 3G started in 2008, ...
3G trials were on in Bangalore since 2004. If one knew, one could ask for access.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
... I hope you enjoy our little tit for tat and take my comments in good humor, no offense meant, but I do believe we have a very different understanding and outlook on these matters. ...
Tit for tat? Not sure if you are using the right expression here, but ... no thank you, I never have enjoyed doing that - that's like winning an argument and losing a friend.

Yes, we come from vastly different backgrounds, so different understanding and outlooks are to be expected. I prefer being the small humble man insignificant to the industry.
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Old 2nd June 2014, 14:15   #44
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Default Re: OEM ICE User Interfaces: Why so outdated?

Sort of related to this topic, here is what makes for a very interesting read, if you're into that sort of things;

168 pages of (historical) trends and how it might relate to the future as well.

No matter what the future will hold, the internet and in particular mobile internet is going through an amazing growth and expansion.

http://www.kpcb.com/internet-trends

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Old 17th June 2014, 02:16   #45
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Default Re: OEM ICE User Interfaces: Why so outdated?

Just saw some interesting news today related to the OEM's in car.

In many countries including India, Texting and driving is prohibited along with few countries having regulations around talking as well. When this law was implemented many felt that there was a bias since drivers can get distracted with fiddling around with the music system or GPS as such. So now US government has come up with plans to have a tighter control over the GPS navigation system in built in cars. They will come up with rules for dash-mounted GPS units, smartphone mapping apps and anything else you'd use for driving directions. Wonder how they would implement the same and catch the rule breakers.

I do agree, that fiddling with any of the controls (OEM or GPS) is infact dangerous when driving unless there is a co passenger who is doing it but I feel trying to control this itself would be very difficult. Lets see when and how the rule gets implemented.

Source: Engadget
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